This bugged me at IZ. I let it pass so as not to make a scene

[Oss]

but to me it was plain and simple lying by the person who did it
It has bothered me in past inzanes and I have had enough of it

At the final dinner, this same fellow is allowed to make a blessing

He always starts the same way

We all have different beliefs but we thank you for the blessings

All well and good  Who can object to thanking the Lord for getting us here and the good friends and the great country we live in

But at the end he blurts out every time  Our Lord Jesus Christ

Frankly I almost yelled out ALLAH AKBAR (even tho I am no Moslem- the opposite I am a Jew) but I did not do that
as I did not want to rain on a moment that did not belong only to me   But I was scorched and angry and felt betrayed.

I have brought this up at least two other Inzanes to Adm and was told nothing gonna be done about it

Well if so let me know so I am not in the room as it is plain wrong I will go to Inzane but dont look for me at dinner if I have to hear that again.  It aint right.  It isnt like I can miss it as we are sitting together at tables unlike Blessings of the Bikes which I pass on after politely thanking someone for offering.

We are not the Valkyrie rider christian club we are a family with many religions, some dont believe in Christ. No secret as a Jew I do not. I am good friends with many here who are devout, even evangelical christians and they would never do that to me.

Also as you know I am always happy to wish all Merry Christmas, Happy Easter etc but it is wrong to rub my nose, my wife's nose and other non christians in a it.  Hopefully this is a teachable moment

Thats it. Got it off my chest where all (not just Willow) can hear it

I hope I have not offended any of you my friends but you must know that words....they have impact

Edit  In a 2005 rally in Montrose the minister gave a similar blessing as we stood in a circle before eating, but then asked if anyone would like to say something,  There were a dozen CMA folks at that rally.
 I had Bonnie hold my beer, ran to my bike, took a yalmuke from my trunk and gave a sheheyanu blessing.
the minister asked me if I was praying in Hebrew I said yes He asked if I learned it in Israel I said no the Bronx. We laughed and had a great night. Different time different audience Voai

[Rams]

Yogi gave good advice.   
A well thought out and provocative post.  I'm interested to see where it goes.

Rams

[Serk]

Being a non-Christian myself, it kinda irks me, but I'm so used to it I just kinda play along.

Maybe it's a Southern thing, but it's rare to go to any event that I'm not being prayed at "In Jesus Name". I wish places didn't force their praying on everyone, or at least kept their incantations to a truly non-denominational type, but I've come to accept it's just one of those little annoyances one has to deal with.

I spent many years avoiding groups that had this sort of behavior (Including this one) and I was the one that lost out on all the benefits of being an active member of those groups, the groups did just fine without me. I used to try working with the leadership of the groups I was avoiding (Not this one, in this case) and did get them to at least change their praying to be more open and non-specific, but that was about it.

I usually try to figure out when/where the praying at will occur and make myself be elsewhere at that time, but it was difficult to pull that off at the dinner so I just played along.

I guess it makes the majority feel better about things, I try to keep that in mind and just roll with it, but I get your frustration.

Anyway... No real point to my meandering wandering reply, just wanted to let you know you're not alone, and assuming nothing changes (I'm really okay with that, as I said I'm used to it) come sit by me at dinner and we can grimace together through it and kvetch about it afterwards.

I too hope I have not offended any of my good friends here, including you, with my words.

[bscrive]

Being an atheist I as well don't care for the prayer, but with my wife being a devout Jehovah Witness I put up with it for her sake.  When we are at their functions I just stand quietly and look straight.  No offence taken and I wouldn't think of making a disruption about it.  My wife would kill me. 

I know it's not the same Oss, but in a way I can feel your pain.

[mark81]

Being raised in a german catholic family i am not used to such informal prayer. I consider it a compromise when in a group of different beliefs and practices to be lax in formal prayer before a meal.  Its slightly different in your situation because of different beliefs instead of just different means of expression . It seems to me that a silent time for reflection before the meal and more religious things after inviting all beliefs to say their part such as your experience in 2005 would be appropriate. Giving all the chance to participate or leave as they see fit.  

[..]

As the blurting is done just fill in with your own ending.

Whoever is listening to you will hear.

[The emperor has no clothes]

I usually try to figure out when/where the praying at will occur and make myself be elsewhere at that time, but it was difficult to pull that off at the dinner so I just played along.

You should have went with me to the bar. I came back with 5 beers and didn’t even realize I missed it until seeing this post.

[The emperor has no clothes]

I think the Allah Akbar shout would have been hilarious. 

[f6john]

I don’t have an answer to the issue, wish I did. I do know Jesus was a Jew. I know the Jewish people of the time Jesus was on earth mostly did not accept him as the savior that was prophesied about 700 hundred years before. I know very little of the Jewish faith so I can’t speak to that but I believe Jesus will be coming again, In my case the second coming, for the Jewish people it will be the first.

Their is a connection between the Christian faith and the Jewish nation that is unbreakable do to the history between the two. All I can say is that most Christians believe in the Holy Trinity, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. We view them one as the same. If closing the prayer by invoking the Fathers name instead of Jesus would be more palatable that could be a solution.

[Chrisj CMA]

I tend to end prayers in Jesus Name, However I have heard Christians pray in public end it simply " In Your holy name". That way "your" can be what it means to you.

[Pappy!]

You guys that say "you put up with it"......  Really?
We are a mixed breed of believers in this country. That is part of what makes this country what it is.
Enjoy the differences and go on with your beliefs! Your belief is no better or worse than those who give blessings or have a different belief than you do. 

[sandy]

I'm with bscrive, OSS and serk. This is not a religious club and blessings and prayers should be spoken in silence. One religion should not be imposed upon everyone. Atheists comprise approx 1 in 6 Americans (numerous studies I've read) and Jews are very common. Then there are muslims, and no telling how many other sects.

[Gryphon Rider]

Oss, your request seems perfectly reasonable to me.

"Blessed are you, King of the Universe, who provides us with all sustenance, and by Whose words all creation came into being.  Thank you for providing all, including this meal.  Amen."

This, or something similar, should work for various monotheists.  Others can just consider themselves to be eavesdropping. 

[DirtyDan]

A patch on my vest

“Jesus loves you, I think you’re an .............”

Dan

[TJ]

You guys that say "you put up with it"......  Really?
We are a mixed breed of believers in this country. That is part of what makes this country what it is.
Enjoy the differences and go on with your beliefs! Your belief is no better or worse than those who give blessings or have a different belief than you do. 

     

[Wizzard]

You guys that say "you put up with it"......  Really?
We are a mixed breed of believers in this country. That is part of what makes this country what it is.
Enjoy the differences and go on with your beliefs! Your belief is no better or worse than those who give blessings or have a different belief than you do.  

Nothing wrong with different beliefs. That is what freedom should be. When we get so offended by another belief that we persecute them is when it all goes crazy. We have to be tolerant. If I get offended by someones prayer then my options are:
1. Leave the room.
2. make a stink about it and demand they not pray that way.(which serves only me)
3. Ignore it and realize that is their freedom also.

[Binkie]

It never fails to amaze me what things people get torqued off about.

[Robert]

The name of Jesus has always been a flashpoint and in fact Oss its the same God.

 Its a understanding in  the bible that Jesus is our blood sacrifice so that the Lord hears our prayers. To utter that name is a Christians way to make sure things are done properly. Its a blessing regardless of how you hear the name or your personal feelings about it and if we don't say the name or stay generic then we are we truly being faithful to our faith and God as we know and perceive Him. We ask God blessings on all there not just Christians, since you being a Jew are the children of Abraham and we are the grafted in children. Should we wish to bless with all that is within us or within the God head to bless and protect all there, since it is our way to make sure Gods favor and blessings will be on all we care about.

I know your strength of character and faith in God, We serve the same God, allow us to serve the same God with the name that saved us, that is our Blood sacrifice. We bear His mark, we are redeemed not by the sacrifice of goats or cattle but by that name. We shrug off curse words all day, why is it that name seems to pierce us sometimes? That is the real question.

Isaiah 8:14

[Pappy!]

And while I am "at it" ....think about this next time something like this "offends" you.

A person with a deep belief took his time to bless each and every one of you. Think about that for a minute. It is a very powerful, caring, and deep thing to do.
It made no difference to him that you are a believer, what beliefs you have, or even that you may be a non-believer. You were blessed by someone!!

Now tell me again how this "offends" you??

[The emperor has no clothes]

In defense of my friend Evan. I don't think he is asking that blessing not be done. But that it be a more inclusive blessing. Clearly this is something that has bothered him for a few years and he has refrained from making an issue about it.
 As I told him in a pm, I wish he would have shouted "Allah Akbar". I think it would have been hilarious. But I'm sure I would have been in the minority. I think GR's idea is perfect.

[T.P.]

I think the Allah Akbar shout would have been hilarious. 

We would have then found out who all of the concealed carry holders were.

T.P.

[Wizzard]

I think the Allah Akbar shout would have been hilarious. 

We would have then found out who all of the concealed carry holders were.

T.P.

Lol,, might have been a lot of "clicks"

[The emperor has no clothes]

I think the Allah Akbar shout would have been hilarious. 

We would have then found out who all of the concealed carry holders were.

T.P.

I can see the headlines now. "New York Jew held at gunpoint for converting to Islam"

[Oss]

Tom, that was perhaps the funniest thing I have read in some time

To Pappy,

If you would re read my post nowhere did I say I was "offended" !  I do not like that word which begs the question why as I do not like the word racist as it is like pouring gas on a fire. As a lawyer I know I should never ask in front of a jury when did the witness stop beating his wife. The statement can not be unheard it presupposes guilt and it is prejudicial in the extreme.

What I did say  RIGHT AT THE TOP OF MY POST is that it bugged me, that I have for several years mentioned it but was told nothing would be done  Blessing of bikes I can avoid, When I am sitting down to eat what can I do but walk out?  Seriously are you suggesting that in a gathering of 300. Then shame on you sir as that closes the door on any future with 300 of my friends.  I do not want that and from the responses of the evangelical christians I have gotten and the PM's neither do they.

Admin Willow has told me basically  both before and after his accident   tough   this is a christian club  too bad  I like Carl, I disagree with him. We disagree on many items. Life goes on.

IMHO that is not only insensitive to the 4 billion non christians it is just wrong on many levels, it will lead faster to the end of the vrcc (read carefully serk and aliens posts and how attendance is devoid of all but a few young people, one Misfit's son)

Having so many good friends I nevertheless have continued coming to Inzane and this board and will continue to post ride reports (I have been asked to tone down the secretary auditions if you havent noticed and have done so)

So if you think I am out of line by posting perhaps you should look at yourself more closely,  a person can be respectful, kind and proud of their heritage and own a Valkyrie at the same time

I did NOT interrupt the blessing, I did not offend or insult anyone and all I ask is that this non denominational gathering use a nondenomational blessing if any at all.  I never suggested NO blessing as I do believe in saying God bless you and do so a dozen times a day

[98valk]

How can a person be certain that Jews who believe in Jesus are no longer Jews when there is confusion over what it means to be a Jew, to be a gentile, and to be a Christian? Would you be willing to examine our viewpoint on these issues?
What Makes Someone Jewish?

Some say that being Jewish is merely a matter of religion. Since the religion of Judaism teaches that Jesus is not the Messiah, that would certainly mean that a person who accepts Jesus is not a Jew. However, it would also mean that the majority of people now known as Jews are not. The definition excludes atheistic Jews, agnostic Jews and all other nonobservant Jews.

Some have said that a real Jew is one who settles in the Land and raises a family there. While it is admirable to make aliyah, most Jews would object to a definition that depends on Zionism alone. Once again, it excludes a majority of our people.
Jesus  =  Yeshua  =  Christ  =  Messiah

Most Jews know that belief in Jesus would make them objects of disappointment, displeasure and perhaps disenfranchisement. Seekers don’t know with the same certainty the reality of God’s promises to those who trust him. That is why they are seeking. Many think Jesus might be true but are unwilling to risk finding out because whereas they don’t quite know what to expect from God, they do know what to expect from people. When God seems remote, people tend to look to one another for acceptance and guidance. And God does seem remote—until that moment when we decide to know him, whatever the cost. The moment we risk everything to know God is the moment of faith.

Others argue that Jewish identity is determined by cultural and sociological rather than religious factors. The interesting thing about those who use this argument is that they often add a caveat: that Jews who believe in other religions” should be excluded. The caveat undercuts the whole concept, since one cannot use a nonreligious definition to include oneself, then turn and use religion to exclude others. Definitions must be consistent.

There is a way to circumvent the confusion and controversy over what it means to be a Jew. The Hebrew Scriptures pinpoint who is a Jew and why the Jewish people exist. Jews who believe in Jesus accept the Scriptures as the authoritative source of Jewishness.
The Hebrew Scriptures and Jewish Identity

https://jewsforjesus.org/publications/issues/issues-v10-n01/jewish-and-christian-can-it-be/

[Gryphon Rider]

The name of Jesus has always been a flashpoint and in fact Oss its the same God.

 Its a understanding in  the bible that Jesus is our blood sacrifice so that the Lord hears our prayers. To utter that name is a Christians way to make sure things are done properly. Its a blessing regardless of how you hear the name or your personal feelings about it and if we don't say the name or stay generic then we are we truly being faithful to our faith and God as we know and perceive Him. We ask God blessings on all there not just Christians, since you being a Jew are the children of Abraham and we are the grafted in children. Should we wish to bless with all that is within us or within the God head to bless and protect all there, since it is our way to make sure Gods favor and blessings will be on all we care about.

I know your strength of character and faith in God, We serve the same God, allow us to serve the same God with the name that saved us, that is our Blood sacrifice. We bear His mark, we are redeemed not by the sacrifice of goats or cattle but by that name. We shrug off curse words all day, why is it that name seems to pierce us sometimes? That is the real question.

Isaiah 8:14

While it is certainly biblically correct to pray "in Jesus' name", appending or omitting those words to the end of a prayer does not automatically validate or invalidate the prayer.  When Jesus told his disciples, "if you ask me anything in my name, I will do it" (John 14), he was not giving them magic words to tack onto any prayer to compel him to fulfill their request, but he was saying that if what they are praying is in accordance with Jesus will and purpose, the Father will grant the request because it is also in accordance with the Father's will and purpose, and also that because the work of Christ on the cross on their behalf sanctifies them, they are allowed access to God in prayer.  It is an excellent habit to say the words, "in Jesus name", as long as when we are saying them, we are acknowledging the meaning behind the words, but God will know this to be true even when we don't say the words every time.

"If possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all." - Romans 12:18
"Strive for peace with everyone, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord." - Hebrews 12:14

The council of Jerusalem (Acts 15) asked believing Gentiles to make accommodations to Jews, even though some of the accommodations would not otherwise be required of Gentiles, in the interest of keeping the peace and not causing undue offence (vv. 19-21).

[Robert]

if you ask me anything in my name, I will do it"

Your words

Its a heart issue and a Word issue, not really into debate about it but I will ask you who do you want to please?


Matthew 10:32
"Whoever acknowledges me before others, I will also acknowledge before my Father in heaven.

Luke 12:8
"I tell you, whoever publicly acknowledges me before others, the Son of Man will also acknowledge before the angels of God.


Luke 9:26
For whoever is ashamed of me and of my words, of him will the Son of Man be ashamed when he comes in his glory and the glory of the Father and of the holy angels.

Romans 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Mark 8:38
For whoever is ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him will the Son of Man also be ashamed when he comes in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.”

Isa 8:14 

"Then He shall become a sanctuary; But to both the houses of Israel, a stone to strike and a rock to stumble over, And a snare and a trap for the inhabitants of Jerusalem.

I will ask you one time with this scripture above, why is the name of Jesus hated so much?

In normal everyday conversation I am not ashamed of my wife and she does not offend anyone, so much more I can say the same thing about my friend and Savior Jesus. It would be nice instead of quoting reasons not to say His name you would give Him the honor for your salvation and life in front of others. We did not get saved by the master of the universe we got saved by Jesus and for that I am eternally grateful. If I and my beliefs offend others then maybe that's a good thing and maybe they need it and even if they don't its part of me and a some who knew me before would say the best part and for being part of me I don't apologize.
 
One day you will be in front of the Master of the Universe (your words)and if He asks why didn't you say my Sons name what are you going to say?

I'm sure that telling Him I didn't want to offend anyone will go over really big.

[Savago]

IMHO that is not only insensitive to the 4 billion non christians it is just wrong on many levels, it will lead faster to the end of the vrcc (read carefully serk and aliens posts and how attendance is devoid of all but a few young people, one Misfit's son)

Oss

You nailed it here.

Even though I think the VRCC is an amazing forum/club and I learned a lot in the technical section from
 you guys, there is a bias here that will push a lot of younger people away.

I'm personally Christian (raised as a Catholic) but I think is wrong in public spaces to rub everyone's nose on whatever flavor of religion you happen to believe.

For fellow Christians, imagine if it was the other way: some Islamic priest saying the prayers in a motorcycle event. How would you feel?

Whoever is in charge of IZ should fix this.

[Wizzard]

Fix what? Having an open prayer of their choice? There goes our freedoms when that stops! Someone wants to have a muslim prayer I could care less. The same freedom granted to them is granted to me. I do not tell them how to pray and they cannot tell me how to pray.

[Robert]

I always imagined a motorcycle group would be made of many types of men. From all sorts of backgrounds and styles of life. Some good some not so good, some drink, curse, some chase skirts and some do nothing but I never realized that while we are all subjected to others behavior that this all was ok as long as you didn't say the name of Jesus.

Somehow I always thought that men real men could tolerate alot and each knew there were others that were not the same but still may have a common interest but that each with their own bend. Each could accept the others with differences and ideas and sometimes even enjoy the exchange of ideas. I may have gotten all this wrong though it seems.

[Gryphon Rider]

Its a heart issue and a Word issue, not really into debate about it but I will ask you who do you want to please?

I don't think it displeases Christ to consider the audience when speaking.

In normal everyday conversation I am not ashamed of my wife and she does not offend anyone, so much more I can say the same thing about my friend and Savior Jesus. It would be nice instead of quoting reasons not to say His name you would give Him the honor for your salvation and life in front of others. We did not get saved by the master of the universe we got saved by Jesus and for that I am eternally grateful. If I and my beliefs offend others then maybe that's a good thing and maybe they need it and even if they don't its part of me and a some who knew me before would say the best part and for being part of me I don't apologize.
 
One day you will be in front of the Master of the Universe (your words)and if He asks why didn't you say my Sons name what are you going to say?

I'm sure that telling Him I didn't want to offend anyone will go over really big.

I don't finish conversations with women with, "Oh, by the way, I'm married", yet I don't think I've ever left an impression with a woman that I was available, seeking a new romantic relationship, or ashamed of my wife.

Not saying "in Jesus' name" at the end of a prayer in a gathering that contains people of many faiths, at an event that is not stated to be a Christian event, especially when the request has been made by someone sincere in their non-Christian faith, is not being ashamed of Christ or the Gospel.

I'd be surprised if anyone who knows me thinks I'm ashamed of the name or Gospel of Christ, but I'm sure God can point to many times I've fallen short of His standard in this regard.  E.g. I almost never ride without the word "Christian" and the cross on my back. (I am by no means saying Christian motorcycle riders are obligated to display their faith on their backs.)

https://youtu.be/vnRZKEdkKFw?t=10m1s

[Robert]

If your good I am too, but I will tell you this I am a white male that believes in Jesus, you cant separate the white nor the male you certainly are not going to separate the Jesus in me either. It is who I am and it not negotiable if you don't want the name of Jesus in a prayer don't ask me to pray. Thats just the way it is.
Its not what others will say its what the Creator of the Universe will say.

The impression is if he wont speak the name of Jesus out of respect for man what is his god like?

What is the servant of the Most High God doing respecting the wishes of man over those of God and not respecting the price that was paid?

We are a lamp on a hill not under the lampstand shine and know to who all glory is due.

Its better if Christian is written on your heart and out of the heart the mouth speaks.

[Gryphon Rider]

If your good I am too, but I will tell you this I am a white male that believes in Jesus, you cant separate the white nor the male you certainly are not going to separate the Jesus in me either. It is who I am and it not negotiable if you don't want the name of Jesus in a prayer don't ask me to pray. Thats just the way it is.
Its not what others will say its what the Creator of the Universe will say.

"For everything there is a season, and a time for every matter under heaven: ...a time to keep silence, and a time to speak." - Ecclesiastes 3

"...but in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect..." - 1 Peter 3:15

[Robert]

If your good I am too, but I will tell you this I am a white male that believes in Jesus, you cant separate the white nor the male you certainly are not going to separate the Jesus in me either. It is who I am and it not negotiable if you don't want the name of Jesus in a prayer don't ask me to pray. Thats just the way it is.
Its not what others will say its what the Creator of the Universe will say.

"For everything there is a season, and a time for every matter under heaven: ...a time to keep silence, and a time to speak." - Ecclesiastes 3

"...but in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect..." - 1 Peter 3:15

Thank you for responding this is for myself mainly.

Those who are forgiven much love much

[Oss]

After receiving so many PM from members including some Adm. I will just have to trust that the family of VRCC administrators has the idea here and can discuss the issue and come up with a fair solution

So this will be my last reply on this matter and I thank all of you for reading and thinking about this whatever your religious beliefs  I wont debate quotes from scripture here.

It remains my hope that sincere discourse can resolve issues and I am confident that will now be the case here. 

[98valk]

After receiving so many PM from members including some Adm. I will just have to trust that the family of VRCC administrators has the idea here and can discuss the issue and come up with a fair solution

So this will be my last reply on this matter and I thank all of you for reading and thinking about this whatever your religious beliefs  I wont debate quotes from scripture here.

It remains my hope that sincere discourse can resolve issues and I am confident that will now be the case here. 

look for VRCC ear muffs in the mail. 

have u ever read the bible? many Jews of the time believed in and followed Jesus the Messiah who the Jews had been waiting for. The main religious political sect of the jews back then rejected Christ because He was teaching against their power/control structure over the people that they enjoyed. also they thought he was there to deliver them from the romans He said he was not. so from those two points on the jewish political leaders plotted to kill Him which they did.  Apostle Paul was a roman jew who killed Christians, but then the Lord woke him up. Paul's writings and sermons using the old testament aka hebrew bible provided evidience that Jesus was the Christ the Jews where waiting for. even the old testament foretold hundreds of yrs earlier that jews would reject Him when He did arrived.
Oss u have been fed mistruths your whole life, only way to prove to yourself without doubt is to read the bible or study and listen to the many, jews for jesus minstries that there are. most are run by jewish pastors. God Bless!!!

[The emperor has no clothes]

After receiving so many PM from members including some Adm. I will just have to trust that the family of VRCC administrators has the idea here and can discuss the issue and come up with a fair solution

So this will be my last reply on this matter and I thank all of you for reading and thinking about this whatever your religious beliefs  I wont debate quotes from scripture here.

It remains my hope that sincere discourse can resolve issues and I am confident that will now be the case here. 

[Bigwolf]

Well, I took about 6 minutes to type up a reply...... hit post and it is all gone.......I was signed off.   Sign on, take a couple minutes to type a reply and have been signed off.   

[Bigwolf]

OSS,
I too was uncomfortable with that closing.

Bigwolf

[Serk]

Well, I took about 6 minutes to type up a reply...... hit post and it is all gone.......I was signed off.   Sign on, take a couple minutes to type a reply and have been signed off.   

If I'm ever making more than a quick one or two sentence reply, after I've typed it out and before I post it, I do a Ctrl-A, Ctrl-C.

Control A says "Select All" and Control C says "Copy it all to the cut and paste buffer"

That way if your post goes poof, you just log back in and can paste it all right back in.

That habit has saved many of my long winded rants, even if it hasn't saved the readers from them.