Problem in the start circuit kinda bothers me.

[John Schmidt]

As you know(or at least you should), if the bike is in gear and you put the kick stand down the engine will die. Obviously you'll be holding in the clutch! In addition, when trying to start the bike if it's in gear with the kick stand down, you're holding the clutch in, hit the start button....it won't start then either, at least it shouldn't. For some reason, my bike hasn't operated like that for quite some time and I'd like to figure out why. I've been looking at RP's schematics and I guess I've been away from that stuff for too many years to come to a conclusion. I can read them OK, just can't seem to tie it all together so figured I'd ask.

Mine will start in gear with the k/s up and the clutch pulled in, but once started if I put the k/s down it continues to run. Plus, if the k/s is down, pull in the clutch with the bike in gear, it won't start which is normal. It appears to be the only abnormal operation is it won't kill the motor if in gear and I put the k/s down. Almost makes me wonder if the diode is acting up or one side of the k/s switch isn't working right or intermittent. I have much the same problem....some days I work, some I don't. Also probably a wiring problem, those parts are getting a bit worn in spots! 

[WintrSol]

The kickstand up position position not only allows the engine to run by grounding pin 6 of the ICM, it enables the starter relay (solenoid) through the clutch switch. When the switch goes to the down position, it removes this ground, which should cause the ICM to kill the engine if not in neutral. So, I think there are two possibilities. 1. The wire from the ICM is broken between it and the splice point that goes to the side stand switch and clutch switch, and is shorted to ground. 2. The neutral switch path has a great enough leak to ground to make the ICM think it is in neutral, but not enough of a leak to make the neutral light bright enough to see.

Try disconnecting the ICM and inspecting and cleaning the connector, to make sure the contacts are good, and make sure you can measure a short from pin 6 to the clutch switch but not to ground. Try checking if there is any glow in the neutral light when in gear; do this in the dark, so you can see it. Or, just measure ICM pin 11 to ground when in gear.

[John Schmidt]

Good suggestions, I'll check as time allows. Just seemed strange to me it only prevents the engine from running under one set of circumstances....in gear, clutch in, k/s down....won't start. Once running....in gear, clutch in, then put the k/s down....keeps running.

[WintrSol]

The starter relay gets a ground through the clutch switch or from the neutral switch, so won't engage unless the side stand is up or in neutral. The ICM thinks it is getting a ground from either the SS or neutral switch all the time, or putting the SS down would shut it off. Question is, which signal is ground all the time, as far as the ICM is concerned?

[RonW]

This won't solve the problem, but there's a minor difference with the kickstand in the down position when you start the bike, and when you lower the kickstand down with the bike running. Both opens the ground circuit for the kickstand switch. Both rotates the kickstand contacts to the same position. However, when starting the bike, there's electricity flowing in the G/W wire. When the engine is running already, there's no electricity flowing in the G/W wire for the kickstand switch to shut off. Unless you for whatever reasons press in the start button (plus pull in the clutch lever). With that said, with engine running, I think the ICM sends electricity out of the G/W-B wire (red rectangle) to verify that the kickstand switch is in the UP position. If the kickstand isn't in the UP position, electricity in the G/W-B wire won't be able to find ground. Detecting this, the ICM shuts off the ignition coils.

Another thought, I doubt there's electricity flowing *into* the ICM through the G/W-B wire when starting the bike. It's circuit might have a diode(?). Why would the ICM need the data? Disclaimer: I haven't actually measured the voltage on the G/W-B wire. In the graphic below, the neutral switch circuit is shaded out to indicate that the transmission is not in neutral. That is, the start button has to find ground through the clutch & kickstand switches.
 

[WintrSol]

Guess it depends on how much current qualifies, but that drawing does make it clear how it works. The ICM has small pull-ups inside, which will apply a small amount of current into either the Lg wire or the G/W-B wire, so it can tell if either leads to ground, or close enough to ground to turn the ICM on. When you press the start button, the current is greater, because it sends power through the starter relay to the G/R wire, and then to ground through the diode to the neutral switch, or through the clutch switch to the SS switch, either of which will turn the relay on. Since the current from the ICM is so small, it doesn't take much of a leak to ground to make it think the G/W-B wire is grounded, so enough conductive dirt in the SS switch, the connector it goes through, or in the clutch switch housing can fool it. Because the neutral switch is pulled up by the light through a diode, the bulb would have to glow if the Lg wire had a large enough leak to ground to fool the ICM.

[RonW]

..... The ICM has small pull-ups inside, which will apply a small amount of current into either the Lg wire or the G/W-B wire, so it can tell if either leads to ground, or close enough to ground to turn the ICM on.

Dunno the specific threshold voltage regarding Ground, but just more on the method the ICM uses to detect Ground ..... with the ignition key ON, the ICM sends +12 [red rectangle] through the Lg wire and G/W wire to ping the status of the neutral switch and the kickstand switch. If not for the +12 from the ICM, the only time the G/W wire would have electricity on it is for the duration that you press in the start button. In order for the kickstand switch to have a role in shutting off the engine when you lower the kickstand (engine running, transmission in gear), the kickstand switch has to *always* have electricity running through its G/W wire to keep it in the loop. Anyways, as long as the kickstand is UP, electricity in G/W has a path to ground and electricity flows through G/W. The ICM recognizes this as *normal* based on its internal library. If you lower the kickstand while the engine is running, the G/W wire ceases to have a path to ground and current stops flowing through G/W. The ICM recognizes this as a not normal status and shuts off the engine. The ICM doesn't know the difference between a kickstand and a muffler. It's just crunches the numbers and performs or executes the desired action.






When the start button is pressed in, electricity will flow through the G/R wire (red rectangle). This G/R electricity will converge with the G/W electricity from the ICM at Node A. Electricity will then travel through path X. Voltage at X will remain +12 as in any parallel circuit where the branches converge or diverge. The amps from the 2 parallel branches will combine at X. Total amps will be whatever, but nothing high enough to blow a fuse.

[gordonv]

My new to me IS had this same issue. Kickstand did not kill the engine. Took the switch off it, and found that the pin that moves the switch was crushed/flatten by not being aligned into the hole. There fore it was not activating.

Replaced the switch, and it worked again.

Start there, take the switch off.

[John Schmidt]

My new to me IS had this same issue. Kickstand did not kill the engine. Took the switch off it, and found that the pin that moves the switch was crushed/flatten by not being aligned into the hole. There fore it was not activating.

Replaced the switch, and it worked again.

Start there, take the switch off.

Would it start in gear with the k/s down and clutch pulled in?

[gordonv]

Yes (if I remember correctly).

The kickstand switch was basically crushed in the UP position, and putting the kickstand down did nothing to the bike. I was looking for the picture, but suspect it was with photobucket.

OK, found it on PB. DL and copied to postimag, and here you are.

[WintrSol]

So, on the IS there is no side stand down light, so there was no telltale the switch wasn't working. The Tourer does have this light, and I've been meaning to ask the OP if his was working.

[RonW]

WintrSol, if the rectangular pin is bent that much out of whack, the kickstand won't be able to physically engage the pin and rotate the switch to the down position. You'd be able to swing the kickstand down, but the rotation at the kickstand knuckle won't won't rotate the switch with it. The kickstand meter light remains without Ground permanently and won't light up when the kickstand is down. Schmidt's issue is an oddball in a league of its own ..... starter motor won't crank when the kickstand is down (transmission in gear, clutch pull in) the way it should work, but then, lowering the kickstand won't shut off the engine. The two things are at odd with each other.  Gordonv's was consistent with each other.

[WintrSol]

I realize that, RonW, but if the switch is not being moved, the light on the tach will not glow when the stand is down. The IS doesn't have this light, so that feedback wasn't there for gordonv. I wasn't clear when asking the OP if his light was working.

[RonW]

So, John Schmidt, does the kickstand light in the meter glow when your kickstand is down?