Hydrolocked even with a fuel shutoff valve.

[nogrey]

Just read an account on one of the FB Valkyrie pages of hydrolock on cyl #4 even though a fuel cutoff was installed. I have been saying for quite some time that there is enough fuel in the fuel rails and carb bowls to hydrolock a cylinder in the even of a failed float valve in the carb. I was specifically asked recently by another if I had evidence of hydrolock with a fuel cutoff installed. Now there is. Just putting this out there for the general good of our group. It’s important to not rely solely on a fuel cutoff for hydrolock protection.

[Valkorado]

I'll be danged.  I've posed the question before here on the tech board if anyone has experienced a lock with a shutoff installed, never had a reply.  That's news to me.

[Leathel]

Link to the FB Valk post?

[Jruby38]

I checked my Pingle by pulling the carb line and it was less than 2 oz. No way 2 oz will lock up a 1.5 liter motor.

[nogrey]

Link to the FB Valk post?

Read England is the affected individual. It is the Southern Valk riders group. A closed group. Here is the link: https://www.facebook.com/groups/642576109419780/850242685319787/?comment_id=850244101986312&reply_comment_id=850298411980881&notif_id=1554765898256182&notif_t=group_comment

[nogrey]

I checked my Pingle by pulling the carb line and it was less than 2 oz. No way 2 oz will lock up a 1.5 liter motor.

Not talking about the fuel between the petcock and the solenoid. The danger is the fuel in the fuel rails and carb bowls. There are two fuel rails, left bank and right bank. Next time you have your carbs out, drain them into a measuring cup. You’ll see what I mean. Plenty of fuel there. More than ample to fill one or more cylinders. Also, if you’ve ever had the heads off and looked at the (lack of) clearance in these interference engine cylinders, you’d understand. It doesn’t take much.

[Leathel]

I checked my Pingle by pulling the carb line and it was less than 2 oz. No way 2 oz will lock up a 1.5 liter motor.

Not talking about the fuel between the petcock and the solenoid. The danger is the fuel in the fuel rails and carb bowls. There are two fuel rails, left bank and right bank. Next time you have your carbs out, drain them into a measuring cup. You’ll see what I mean. Plenty of fuel there. More than ample to fill one or more cylinders. Also, if you’ve ever had the heads off and looked at the (lack of) clearance in these interference engine cylinders, you’d understand. It doesn’t take much.

How does the fuel from the carb bowls get into the cylinder without the vacuum of a piston moving to suck it out, the only outlet into the cylinders are above the fuel level, the fuel in the rails needs to lift the fuel level in the carb via a leaking float valve to get any out....unless the bike falls over and lays on its side the fuel stays in the bowl

 Did the FB guy have a faulty shut off or have it wired wrong? as its a closed group we cannot get the content of his post

[Avanti]

Does a hydro-lock occur on one side more than another?
Just wondering if it always occurs on the left side, due to left leaning on kickstand.

[nogrey]

I checked my Pingle by pulling the carb line and it was less than 2 oz. No way 2 oz will lock up a 1.5 liter motor.

Not talking about the fuel between the petcock and the solenoid. The danger is the fuel in the fuel rails and carb bowls. There are two fuel rails, left bank and right bank. Next time you have your carbs out, drain them into a measuring cup. You’ll see what I mean. Plenty of fuel there. More than ample to fill one or more cylinders. Also, if you’ve ever had the heads off and looked at the (lack of) clearance in these interference engine cylinders, you’d understand. It doesn’t take much.

How does the fuel from the carb bowls get into the cylinder without the vacuum of a piston moving to suck it out, the only outlet into the cylinders are above the fuel level, the fuel in the rails needs to lift the fuel level in the carb via a leaking float valve to get any out....unless the bike falls over and lays on its side the fuel stays in the bowl

 Did the FB guy have a faulty shut off or have it wired wrong? as its a closed group we cannot get the content of his post

Simple: A failed fuel float valve.

[nogrey]

Does a hydro-lock occur on one side more than another?
Just wondering if it always occurs on the left side, due to left leaning on kickstand.

I would not claim to know the answer to that. I do know this: ignoring proper maintenance on a 20 year old normally aspirated fuel system that was never intended to burn ethanol based fuels is only going to cause problems. It’s simple really, you buy a 20 year old bike with original tires. You gonna ride on those tires? No way! Why? Because they are old and brittle. Yet, somehow, folks can’t seem to understand the same thing occurs in the carbs, petcock, timing belts, vacuum lines, valve stems etc. Honestly, I’m only trying to point out that there are issues with these machines that, if addressed, will save the owner a world of hurt.

[WintrSol]

How about some numbers? The engine displacement is 1520cc, or 253.3cc per cylinder. Compression is 9.8:1, so the combustion chamber is ~26cc, or 0.87 US ounces. That is how much would have to stand in the fuel rails. plus the amount it takes to reach the overflow point of one carb when its float valve fails to close. I don't know what that last value is, but it does seem possible that, if both rails empty through one carb, a hydrolock of that cylinder is possible.

Sorry for being pedantic, just the engineer in me, I guess.

[JimC]

I just happened across a youtube video last night while researching a desmog. The video is from a guy that builds custom bikes. He was saying that the floats and needle and seat are the problem with the Valkyrie hydrolock.

Sure, a bad shut off valve adds to the issue
Sure, a Danmarc helps some with the issue
BUT his video makes sense to me, especially if there is enough gas in the fuel rails to fill a cylinder head under compression.

Video Link:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QwJdnA5l8cQ

Jim

[nogrey]

How about some numbers? The engine displacement is 1520cc, or 253.3cc per cylinder. Compression is 9.8:1, so the combustion chamber is ~26cc, or 0.87 US ounces. That is how much would have to stand in the fuel rails. plus the amount it takes to reach the overflow point of one carb when its float valve fails to close. I don't know what that last value is, but it does seem possible that, if both rails empty through one carb, a hydrolock of that cylinder is possible.

Sorry for being pedantic, just the engineer in me, I guess.

Thank you. Exactly what I’ve been saying for some time, except without those figures. What I do know is that every time I remove a set of carburetors and empty them into a container, I get at least a cup of fuel, if not more out of them.

[MarkT]

I'm thinking I have done all I need to with a Dan-Marc to prevent this.  Also thinking if this can happen it's so rare I'm not concerned with it.  If I get stung on that - well so be it.

[nogrey]

I'm thinking I have done all I need to with a Dan-Marc to prevent this.  Also thinking if this can happen it's so rare I'm not concerned with it.  If I get stung on that - well so be it.

So, your position is that the evidence is incorrect? Or are you just saying that you choose to not believe it? I mean, the “ignorance is bliss” position surprises me coming from a knowledgable person such as yourself.

[Leathel]

How about some numbers? The engine displacement is 1520cc, or 253.3cc per cylinder. Compression is 9.8:1, so the combustion chamber is ~26cc, or 0.87 US ounces. That is how much would have to stand in the fuel rails. plus the amount it takes to reach the overflow point of one carb when its float valve fails to close. I don't know what that last value is, but it does seem possible that, if both rails empty through one carb, a hydrolock of that cylinder is possible.

Sorry for being pedantic, just the engineer in me, I guess.

The fuel rails are about 200mm long, 6/7mm ID what volume of fuel is in there (I'm not an engineer)

in my case the shut off is at the Tee so 160mm of 3/8th (9.?) mm



but as you can see the hose travels up to the shutoff so unlikely to flow from the second rail (yes still uphill on the stand)

you also still have the carb to overfull before it flows into the cylinder

there is still this to full with fuel less the float volume, as when you remove a full bowl on the bike (like when you change jets in place) the second bowl (fuel rail drains with the first) very little fuel comes out



I have a carb of another bike that will measure similar that I will try voluumes when I am at home, interesting topic... but its still only what overflows the carb bowl not the contents of it

[nogrey]

How about some numbers? The engine displacement is 1520cc, or 253.3cc per cylinder. Compression is 9.8:1, so the combustion chamber is ~26cc, or 0.87 US ounces. That is how much would have to stand in the fuel rails. plus the amount it takes to reach the overflow point of one carb when its float valve fails to close. I don't know what that last value is, but it does seem possible that, if both rails empty through one carb, a hydrolock of that cylinder is possible.

Sorry for being pedantic, just the engineer in me, I guess.

The fuel rails are about 200mm long, 6/7mm ID what volume of fuel is in there (I'm not an engineer)

in my case the shut off is at the Tee so 160mm of 3/8th (9.?) mm



but as you can see the hose travels up to the shutoff so unlikely to flow from the second rail (yes still uphill on the stand)

you also still have the carb to overfull before it flows into the cylinder

there is still this to full with fuel less the float volume, as when you remove a full bowl on the bike (like when you change jets in place) the second bowl (fuel rail drains with the first) very little fuel comes out



I have a carb of another bike that will measure similar that I will try voluumes when I am at home, interesting topic... but its still only what overflows the carb bowl not the contents of it

Well, the formula for volume is 2 x pi x radius squared times the length (times 2 rails). As another has posted, it takes less than an ounce to hydrolock a cylinder. Once a leak has begun from a failed float valve, a vacuum has been created until the void (cylinder volume) has been filled. That means any fuel in either rail is available to fill that void. Doesn’t matter if the bike is on the stand or upright. That has always been my theory, and considering the fact that we have a documented case of a failure with an electric shutoff in place, I’d say the theory is accurate.

[MarkT]

I'm thinking I have done all I need to with a Dan-Marc to prevent this.  Also thinking if this can happen it's so rare I'm not concerned with it.  If I get stung on that - well so be it.

So, your position is that the evidence is incorrect? Or are you just saying that you choose to not believe it? I mean, the “ignorance is bliss” position surprises me coming from a knowledgable person such as yourself.

So you choose to insult me?  That's disappointing re: you.

I'm a member of the closed S Valkyrie group - I can read all and post there.

One instance is statistically insignificant.  If it's even true.  Or reported correctly.  Or installed correctly.  Or if the "fuel solenoid" didn't fail - I had one that leaked and replaced it with another made for fuel, with Viton gaskets, on my custom belly tank install.  Reed doesn't say it was a Dan-Marc which they report as highly tested. If it was meaningful - there would be far more than one case.  There are LOTS of Dan-marcs installed on Valks.  And until there are more reports - count me as a disbeliever.  The Dan-Marc is sufficient preventative measure for me.  I say PROVE it's possible to hydrolock a Valkyrie via the path you describe, with no fuel being fed into it at the inlet to the "T" - and that line closed off.  IOW - LOCK ONE UP.  Or do an irrefutable simulation. Until then - I'm not buying it.  I don't buy the fuel migrating down the vacuum line to #6 and locking it, either.  Especially on my bikes with no vacuum line but even for others - it would not get past the holed diaphrams without leaking out the drain hole in the petcock.

[nogrey]

I'm thinking I have done all I need to with a Dan-Marc to prevent this.  Also thinking if this can happen it's so rare I'm not concerned with it.  If I get stung on that - well so be it.

So, your position is that the evidence is incorrect? Or are you just saying that you choose to not believe it? I mean, the “ignorance is bliss” position surprises me coming from a knowledgable person such as yourself.

So you choose to insult me?  That's disappointing re: you.

I'm a member of the closed S Valkyrie group - I can read all and post there.

One instance is statistically insignificant.  If it's even true.  Or reported correctly.  Or installed correctly.  Or if the "fuel solenoid" didn't fail - I had one that leaked and replaced it with another made for fuel, with Viton gaskets, on my custom belly tank install.  Reed doesn't say it was a Dan-Marc which they report as highly tested. If it was meaningful - there would be far more than one case.  There are LOTS of Dan-marcs installed on Valks.  And until there are more reports - count me as a disbeliever.  The Dan-Marc is sufficient preventative measure for me.  I say PROVE it's possible to hydrolock a Valkyrie via the path you describe, with no fuel being fed into it at the inlet to the "T" - and that line closed off.  IOW - LOCK ONE UP.  Or do an irrefutable simulation. Until then - I'm not buying it.  I don't buy the fuel migrating down the vacuum line to #6 and locking it, either.  Especially on my bikes with no vacuum line but even for others - it would not get past the holed diaphrams without leaking out the drain hole in the petcock.

Sorry, insulting you was not my intent. That’s the problem with text, can be misinterpreted. Really thought I knew you well enough to take it toungue in cheek, and guess I thought you knew me as well. I try not to say things on line that I would’nt say in person. But I assumed, and you know what they say when you “assume”. As you say, one instance is anecdotal (I’d say that too if I was not on board with the concept I’m touting). I’m not going to try to prove it to you though. It’s pretty obvious to me how much fuel  is on the other side of the shutoff. Every time I take a set of carbs apart and have to drain the fuel from them (I don’t use the float bowl drains). I’m just putting it out there for the rest of the world to try to be helpful. Certainly not trying to hurt anybody’s feeling or alienate anyone. Like car tires, I don’t really care whether anyone uses the fuel cutoff or puts a pingle on. My point is simply that there is enough fuel to HL a bike even with those steps, and due diligence in maintaining the system is important to the longevity of the bike. As for the possibility of fuel making it’s way down the petcock vacuum line, you’re assuming that it would only take the drip hole path, whereas, having worked with plumbing enough I know that it would take both paths in the event of a leak. Granted, it would take more time, and more fuel, but then some of these bikes are allowed to sit for months without being used. And, there’s plenty of room in the tank for their to be ample fuel available even if only 1/2 of it went down the vacuum line. Again, my apology if you felt insulted, I don’t mean to insult anyone on this board. I rely on you all for advice.  

[Leathel]

ok so I filled a section of my old fuel line with water (120mm long) it took 6 fills to get the 26cc, that is more than is in the fuel rails, the fuel in the bowls will add to more when you remove the carbs but it can't siphon out of the bowls once the rials are empty when in place...if you had the fuel shut off nearer tank end of the hose or you had excess hose, and you left it idling long enough for the leaking float valve to fill the carb completely prior to shutting off....and all the fuel in the line and rails went into ONE carb via the leaking float valve then maybe but thats a lot of things to line up to happen


 Vacuum shutoff at the tank is still has more chance of a HL, longer fuel line, fuel will keep running for a short while after shutting down while vacuum subsides.....

[Fazer]

You guys have done a great job of banging this around from every angle. 

My only observation is it takes a few miles for me to notice I have forgotten to turn the gas on which to me indicates there is quite a bit of gas in the system between the petcock (OEM) and the carbs.  I had a DanMark on my bike, but Attic Rat removed it during his work stating it would restrict fuel flow.  Now I am trying to build the habit of turning gas off, but as some have stated, there is still fuel in the lines.  In fact, when I left Tulsa on my way back to Cincinnati, I was on the freeway for at least five miles at 60/65 until the bike started it fuel starved syndrome.  I had forgotten to turn the fuel on.

[Paladin528]

The DAN-Marc in fact does restrict fuel flow if you use the one they say is for the Valk.  The orifice is too small.  I ran into the issue in 2017 when travelling accross the interstate to Rapid City.  Cruising at 85+ MPH in about 30 minutes the bike would act like it was out of fuel.  Slowing down brought it back to life.  It happened twice before I realized what the issue was.  I was using the fuel in the carb bowls faster than it could be supplied through the small orifice in the Dan-Marc.  At speeds of 80 or less this was never an issue because the supply equaled demand any higher and the demand out paced the supply.

On the note of the hydrolock.  in order for the fuel to flow from the fuel rail to the carb bowl with the leaky float valve there would need to be an air leak in the fuel line somewhere between the fuel valve and the carb.  Fuel draining into the carb would create enough vacuum in the line to prevent the fuel from flowing.  Think holding your thumb over a straw and pulling it out of the water.  It will not flow until you can get air upstream of the fluid to replace it.

I every event a hydrolock is a multipoint failure not a single point failure.

[98valk]

All honda motorcycles have been 10% ethanol since the '80s. The valkyrie owner's manual states it was designed for up to 10% ethanol.

this is from Rider mag sept 1988 about the '88 goldwing Gl1500.
they had the hydro-lock problem and it turned out to be the bowl vent hose was sagging. "the low spotfills with gas and prevents air circulation, much like a sink trap. without a connection to atmosphere, the float bowls pressurize and raw fuel is forced up and out of the carbs through the needle jet. From there gravity takes the fuel down the intake runners. if that cylinder has an open intake valve, hydrolock." "The article states that honda issued a Product Update kit on a fix in feb of that yr which included a metal air-vent pipe and a vacuum fuel valve."
Looking at the service manual pics in the carb section it shows the vent hoses as straight sections just laying loosely on top of other hoses. My 98's vent hoses have a 90 degree end. the end is installed into holes in the rear carb support frame.
So this might be the reason and cause of the problem for some bikes.

honda service bulletin fix

http://www.goldwingworld.com/pages/sb1.pdf

Mike Nixon – noted CBX and vintage Honda guru says:

    “I don’t arbitrarily replace parts, only what is needed. The factory float valves often last longer than the motorcycle. They’re also expensive. But, I will not use aftermarket float valves, and here is why. That’s chrome plating that is coming off this aftermarket float valve. The factory ones never do that.”
http://www.randakksblog.com/more-problems-with-aftermarket-float-valves/


 Longevity is an issue also. Whereas the factory part has proven to last 20-30 years,
http://www.motorcycleproject.com/text/float_valves.html

CBX hydrolock
http://www.motorcycleproject.com/text/hole_in_one.html

has zero to do with the float needle spring getting weak and thereby not closing the needle against the seat and stopping fuel flow.   
see my post in thread with picture of needle.
http://www.valkyrieforum.com/bbs/index.php/topic,93751.0.html

[Willow]

Last evening I did my best to apply some logic to the thought of a hydrolock with the fuel shutoff in place.  I came up with some reasons why it shouldn't be able to happen.  This morning when I opened the thread I saw they had been stated by others.

The amount in the fuel rails does not directly equate to the amount needed to hydrolock.  The fuel needs to overflow the carb bowl before any flows to the cylinder with the intake valve open.

Fuel doesn't empty from the lines unless there is fuel from the tank or air to replace what is in the line.  That can be demonstrated as stated by a straw and your drink at dinner.  Air in the line causes a problem with stopping, or at least limiting, the flow.  If fuel lines emptied we'd have problems every time we started a bike with a failed float valve.

Most importantly there are thousands and thousands of Valkyries with only the fuel shutoff at the petcock as protection.  If fuel drained from the lines and could cause hydrolock there would be myriads of reports of unmodified Valkyries experiencing hydrolock.

Valkyrie hydrolock needs multiple failures - fuel shutoff, float valve and the engine stopped with the cylinder corresponding to the failed float stopped having the intake valve opened.  I would place any theory of a hydrock without one of these failures in the same category as the theories of flaming death with non-motorcycle specific rear tires.   

[nogrey]

All honda motorcycles have been 10% ethanol since the '80s. The valkyrie owner's manual states it was designed for up to 10% ethanol.

this is from Rider mag sept 1988 about the '88 goldwing Gl1500.
they had the hydro-lock problem and it turned out to be the bowl vent hose was sagging. "the low spotfills with gas and prevents air circulation, much like a sink trap. without a connection to atmosphere, the float bowls pressurize and raw fuel is forced up and out of the carbs through the needle jet. From there gravity takes the fuel down the intake runners. if that cylinder has an open intake valve, hydrolock." "The article states that honda issued a Product Update kit on a fix in feb of that yr which included a metal air-vent pipe and a vacuum fuel valve."
Looking at the service manual pics in the carb section it shows the vent hoses as straight sections just laying loosely on top of other hoses. My 98's vent hoses have a 90 degree end. the end is installed into holes in the rear carb support frame.
So this might be the reason and cause of the problem for some bikes.

honda service bulletin fix

http://www.goldwingworld.com/pages/sb1.pdf

Mike Nixon – noted CBX and vintage Honda guru says:

    “I don’t arbitrarily replace parts, only what is needed. The factory float valves often last longer than the motorcycle. They’re also expensive. But, I will not use aftermarket float valves, and here is why. That’s chrome plating that is coming off this aftermarket float valve. The factory ones never do that.”
http://www.randakksblog.com/more-problems-with-aftermarket-float-valves/


 Longevity is an issue also. Whereas the factory part has proven to last 20-30 years,
http://www.motorcycleproject.com/text/float_valves.html

CBX hydrolock
http://www.motorcycleproject.com/text/hole_in_one.html

has zero to do with the float needle spring getting weak and thereby not closing the needle against the seat and stopping fuel flow.   
see my post in thread with picture of needle.
http://www.valkyrieforum.com/bbs/index.php/topic,93751.0.html

Thank you for all the information here. My hope in posting this was to encourage thoughtful conversation. The more I read, the more I learn.
I’m not sure the recall on the goldwings really applies....not sure that it doesn’t. What I mean is, their throttle bodies are so very different from the Valks that after reading the recall I can’t really tell if it applies. The Valkyries do have air vent lines that feed both sides of the carbs. And their positioning seems to be very different from the goldwings. They can be seen on page 5-7 of the shop manual. The article about the jets is also interesting, although the statement about not replacing them due to them being expensive is confusing. They run about $9 each at http://jetsrus.com/individual_parts/KL_18_8955.html
It’s a perplexing topic and one that I am not an expert of. Still, I keep going back to the many times I’ve purchased poorly running Valks and pulled the carbs out. I’m always very careful to place the carb bank in a vessel that will capture all of the fuel, and there is quite a bit. Enough that I am (obviously) convinced that one could easily fill a cylinder with just the amount in the fuel rails. Bear in mind, that when one disconnects the fuel line from the petcock, a fair amount of fuel drains from the fuel line and is not captured, and therefor not measured in my assessment of how much fuel remains in the rails. Still, it’s a bit of a mystery how this whole hydrolock thing happens. Not sure exactly how to get to the bottom of it. I am a self-taught mechanic.
Thanks for taking the time to post all the informative reading.

[nogrey]

Valkyrie hydrolock needs multiple failures - fuel shutoff, float valve and the engine stopped with the cylinder corresponding to the failed float stopped having the intake valve opened.  I would place any theory of a hydrock without one of these failures in the same category as the theories of flaming death with non-motorcycle specific rear tires.   

I like the way you think, and in the end, I believe it amounts to the same considerations. To your point, multiple failures may be required in order to cause a hydrolock. My point has never been to prove or disprove anyones theory on how it happens, but to encourage intelligent discourse and consideration to proper maintenance. My personal procedure for keeping my valkyries from HL is to make certain that the OEM petcock is properly maintained, and to keep the carburetors maintained as well. This usually involves periodic inspection, disassembly and replacement of worn parts as needed.
If there is anything to be gained by this topic, I hope it is that the individual reader will consider the age of these machines, and the necessary precautions to prevent all manner of failure.
Ride safe everyone.

[MarkT]

Good discussion I think.

Just to add, I've had fuel starvation also with the smaller Dan-Marc - mentioned this on my writeup of the modified belly tank install.  On the trip to Morgantown pulling a Timeout camper.  I had to limit the speed and keep the tank pretty full so it had enough head pressure. Going up long hills aggravated the problem. The speed limit wasn't that high - like 60 - and the starvation was worse as the afternoons heated up.  Replaced the Dan-Marc with the bigger one and have not had that problem recur.  

My 2 daily riders are set up with a fuel security switch which consists of a latch relay triggered by a hidden momentary button that powers the DM.  Power is supplied by the Bl/Wh wire off the kill sw.  If I don't hit the button when starting - it will sputter always less than a mile.

Here's a visual of how small the little DM orifice is.  Approx the size of a BB.  Reported at http://www.dan-marc.com/79-afc11112.html as 0.156".  The bigger one is 0.25".  That makes the smaller one, cross section 0.0191in². The 1/4" DM then is 0.0491in².   2.57 times the sectional area and thus, flow - assuming this is the bottleneck in both systems.




The bigger orifice DM installed.

[98valk]

All honda motorcycles have been 10% ethanol since the '80s. The valkyrie owner's manual states it was designed for up to 10% ethanol.

this is from Rider mag sept 1988 about the '88 goldwing Gl1500.
they had the hydro-lock problem and it turned out to be the bowl vent hose was sagging. "the low spotfills with gas and prevents air circulation, much like a sink trap. without a connection to atmosphere, the float bowls pressurize and raw fuel is forced up and out of the carbs through the needle jet. From there gravity takes the fuel down the intake runners. if that cylinder has an open intake valve, hydrolock." "The article states that honda issued a Product Update kit on a fix in feb of that yr which included a metal air-vent pipe and a vacuum fuel valve."
Looking at the service manual pics in the carb section it shows the vent hoses as straight sections just laying loosely on top of other hoses. My 98's vent hoses have a 90 degree end. the end is installed into holes in the rear carb support frame.
So this might be the reason and cause of the problem for some bikes.

honda service bulletin fix

http://www.goldwingworld.com/pages/sb1.pdf

Mike Nixon – noted CBX and vintage Honda guru says:

    “I don’t arbitrarily replace parts, only what is needed. The factory float valves often last longer than the motorcycle. They’re also expensive. But, I will not use aftermarket float valves, and here is why. That’s chrome plating that is coming off this aftermarket float valve. The factory ones never do that.”
http://www.randakksblog.com/more-problems-with-aftermarket-float-valves/


 Longevity is an issue also. Whereas the factory part has proven to last 20-30 years,
http://www.motorcycleproject.com/text/float_valves.html

CBX hydrolock
http://www.motorcycleproject.com/text/hole_in_one.html

has zero to do with the float needle spring getting weak and thereby not closing the needle against the seat and stopping fuel flow.   
see my post in thread with picture of needle.
http://www.valkyrieforum.com/bbs/index.php/topic,93751.0.html

Thank you for all the information here. My hope in posting this was to encourage thoughtful conversation. The more I read, the more I learn.
I’m not sure the recall on the goldwings really applies....not sure that it doesn’t. What I mean is, their throttle bodies are so very different from the Valks that after reading the recall I can’t really tell if it applies. The Valkyries do have air vent lines that feed both sides of the carbs. And their positioning seems to be very different from the goldwings. They can be seen on page 5-7 of the shop manual. The article about the jets is also interesting, although the statement about not replacing them due to them being expensive is confusing. They run about $9 each at http://jetsrus.com/individual_parts/KL_18_8955.html
It’s a perplexing topic and one that I am not an expert of. Still, I keep going back to the many times I’ve purchased poorly running Valks and pulled the carbs out. I’m always very careful to place the carb bank in a vessel that will capture all of the fuel, and there is quite a bit. Enough that I am (obviously) convinced that one could easily fill a cylinder with just the amount in the fuel rails. Bear in mind, that when one disconnects the fuel line from the petcock, a fair amount of fuel drains from the fuel line and is not captured, and therefor not measured in my assessment of how much fuel remains in the rails. Still, it’s a bit of a mystery how this whole hydrolock thing happens. Not sure exactly how to get to the bottom of it. I am a self-taught mechanic.
Thanks for taking the time to post all the informative reading.

in one of my posts at one time, I stated the bowl vent hoses on mine do not look like pg 5-7 at all, but have a curved end which goes into holes of rear carbs frame. A vent line must be run its length the same as a gravity drain line otherwise it will create a trap and prevent correct air movement. (I was a Dept of Navy plumbing system designer early in my career).  This was the basis of the honda fix, that the hose was sagging, hence the metal tube they installed and I think they re-routed it also. If the hoses are installed as shown pg 5-7, then if the fuel was trying to exit the vent hose it would have to go uphill to the end. if the fuel can't exit, then the fuel will fill up the bowl and start exiting through the pilot jet ports into the carb throat and down into the cylinder if that intake valve was open. If the hoses are installed with a downward slope into the lower holes in the carb frame, the fuel would just drain out. That's my thinking.
  The Goldwing GL1500 did not use throttle bodies. They actually were very complicated electronic carburetors. many wondered in '88 why honda just didn't use their FI system they had on their autos at the time instead of forcing carbs to work like FI.

[Regis]

It was my bike that did it . Cylinder #4 . I suspected #6 because of the stock petcock and vacuum line but it wasn’t. I have a Redhat brand fuel solenoid on it that’s been on there since 2012. There wasn’t much gas in the cylinder so I assume it was near the top of the stroke . May also contribute to why the starter gear wasn’t damaged because it didnt crank at all just clunked. I have a pingel valve ordered now . It sat all winter but was started on a warm day in January with no problems. Bike has 122k miles and carbs have never been touched other than synchronized once . Not bad for 22 years of service.

[WintrSol]

How about some numbers? The engine displacement is 1520cc, or 253.3cc per cylinder. Compression is 9.8:1, so the combustion chamber is ~26cc, or 0.87 US ounces. That is how much would have to stand in the fuel rails. plus the amount it takes to reach the overflow point of one carb when its float valve fails to close. I don't know what that last value is, but it does seem possible that, if both rails empty through one carb, a hydrolock of that cylinder is possible.

Sorry for being pedantic, just the engineer in me, I guess.

The fuel rails are about 200mm long, 6/7mm ID what volume of fuel is in there (I'm not an engineer)

So, assuming 7mm ID, the volume in one rail would be about 7.7cc, and about 5.7cc if the ID is 6mm. The total would be about 12-14cc, plus that in the line between them, which would be similar to one rail, call it another 8cc, for a total of 20-22cc. Getting close, but it depends entirely on how the lines are run at this point, and how much it takes for the carb to overflow. I suppose that putting even 10cc into the cylinder will create a near-hydrolock condition, as the compression will far exceed the 9.8:1 rating. It would also explain why you didn't jam it hard enough to break the gears.

[pancho]

Interesting topic,,, Just to keep the nomenclature correct, there is no such thing as a Dan-Marc fuel valve. Dan Marc is a retailer of marine accessories and other fuel pluming parts. The fuel valves being sold by Dan-Marc are Advanced Fuel Components items, the 1/4 inch orifice one being an AFC-121. These valves are obtainable from other outlets for less cash including this one.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/AFC-121-Advanced-Fuel-Components-Solenoid-Shut-Lock-Off-Valve-12-volt-Max-2psi/232779210725?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649

Just wanted to clear that up.

[Jruby38]

Way to go Regis. crap can the OEM  POS  and shut the Pingle valve off. You will never have to worry about hydo
lock again. I did 16 years and over 100k miles ago.  No mater what the others say, they are not machianics, there is not enough fuel in the line when its off.

[indybobm]

Even Pingels can leak. That is why you can send them back to be rebuilt.

[Regis]

Well to be clear ...my fuel line and fuel solenoid isn’t set up the same as the one pictured above . My solenoid is about 6” from the T and about 1” from the petcock and mounted with the coil on a bracket I made. So there is quite a bit more fuel in my line that could have drained into the bowl on #4 . Either way, there wasn’t very much fuel in the cylinder and I’m pretty positive it was already near the top of the stroke on #4 . I think I’ll change the thermostat while it’s apart and also the throttle cables since I already have new parts I’ve been waiting to put on . At least it’s early in the season .

[nogrey]

Way to go Regis. poop can the OEM  POS  and shut the Pingle valve off. You will never have to worry about hydo
lock again. I did 16 years and over 100k miles ago.  No mater what the others say, they are not machianics, there is not enough fuel in the line when its off.

Sorry, you are just wrong about that assertion. There is plenty of fuel in the rails to HL a cylinder. Nope, I’m not a “mechianic”, I’m an engineer. Most of the folks in this discussion seem to assume that when I talk about the fuel rails, I’m talking about the two rubber hoses that “T” from the fuel line. I’m not, although their volume is included, the rails run along the length of each side of the carb banks to deliver fuel to each carb. Don’t take my word for it, see for yourself next time you remove your carbs. More than 1 oz of fuel. I’d venture several ounces.

[nogrey]

Well to be clear ...my fuel line and fuel solenoid isn’t set up the same as the one pictured above . My solenoid is about 6” from the T and about 1” from the petcock and mounted with the coil on a bracket I made. So there is quite a bit more fuel in my line that could have drained into the bowl on #4 . Either way, there wasn’t very much fuel in the cylinder and I’m pretty positive it was already near the top of the stroke on #4 . I think I’ll change the thermostat while it’s apart and also the throttle cables since I already have new parts I’ve been waiting to put on . At least it’s early in the season .

Thank you for chiming in on the conversation. Let us know how it goes. Sounds like you’ve got all the right parts coming. Glad the bike didn’t break any gears. Sounds like you are careful to listen when you tap the starter switch, which is a good habit. Take care.

[Regis]

Way to go Regis. poop can the OEM  POS  and shut the Pingle valve off. You will never have to worry about hydo
lock again. I did 16 years and over 100k miles ago.  No mater what the others say, they are not machianics, there is not enough fuel in the line when its off.

Sorry, you are just wrong about that assertion. There is plenty of fuel in the rails to HL a cylinder. Nope, I’m not a mechanic, I’m an engineer. Most of the folks in this discussion seem to assume that when I talk about the fuel rails, I’m talking about the two rubber hoses that “T” from the fuel line. I’m not, although their volume is included, the rails run along the length of each side of the carb banks to deliver fuel to each carb. Don’t take my word for it, see for yourself next time you remove your carbs. More than 1 oz of fuel. I’d venture several ounces.

You shouldn’t have said you were an “engineer “ . I cuss engineers daily at my Mechanic job ! 

[nogrey]

Way to go Regis. poop can the OEM  POS  and shut the Pingle valve off. You will never have to worry about hydo
lock again. I did 16 years and over 100k miles ago.  No mater what the others say, they are not machianics, there is not enough fuel in the line when its off.

Sorry, you are just wrong about that assertion. There is plenty of fuel in the rails to HL a cylinder. Nope, I’m not a mechanic, I’m an engineer. Most of the folks in this discussion seem to assume that when I talk about the fuel rails, I’m talking about the two rubber hoses that “T” from the fuel line. I’m not, although their volume is included, the rails run along the length of each side of the carb banks to deliver fuel to each carb. Don’t take my word for it, see for yourself next time you remove your carbs. More than 1 oz of fuel. I’d venture several ounces.

You shouldn’t have said you were an “engineer “ . I cuss engineers daily at my Mechanic job ! 

Well, I sure can understand that, lots of different kinds of engineers out there. Some engineers design some really great stuff, then it gets sent off the the engineers that “package” that great stuff, and make it almost unbearable to work on. Then there’s the technical engineers (like myself) that spend their life installing, maintaining, and making the stuff the other engineers sent us do what it is supposed to do. Lot’s of mechanical and engineering skills required in the installation and maintenance of CT scanners, MRI scanners and X-Ray systems. That’s my background. Engineers are on a tiered system....picture a 3 story out-house....

[98valk]

Way to go Regis. poop can the OEM  POS  and shut the Pingle valve off. You will never have to worry about hydo
lock again. I did 16 years and over 100k miles ago.  No mater what the others say, they are not machianics, there is not enough fuel in the line when its off.

Sorry, you are just wrong about that assertion. There is plenty of fuel in the rails to HL a cylinder. Nope, I’m not a mechanic, I’m an engineer. Most of the folks in this discussion seem to assume that when I talk about the fuel rails, I’m talking about the two rubber hoses that “T” from the fuel line. I’m not, although their volume is included, the rails run along the length of each side of the carb banks to deliver fuel to each carb. Don’t take my word for it, see for yourself next time you remove your carbs. More than 1 oz of fuel. I’d venture several ounces.

You shouldn’t have said you were an “engineer “ . I cuss engineers daily at my Mechanic job ! 

Well, I sure can understand that, lots of different kinds of engineers out there. Some engineers design some really great stuff, then it gets sent off the the engineers that “package” that great stuff, and make it almost unbearable to work on. Then there’s the technical engineers (like myself) that spend their life installing, maintaining, and making the stuff the other engineers sent us do what it is supposed to do. Lot’s of mechanical and engineering skills required in the installation and maintenance of CT scanners, MRI scanners and X-Ray systems. That’s my background. Engineers are on a tiered system....picture a 3 story out-house....

I've worked with some very, very smart engineers and have worked with some that couldn't engineer their way out of a paper bag.

[Jim N]

What if we turn off the petcock before turning off the engine?  Let it run for a minute before storing?  That should burn up a bit of the gas, don't you think?

Jim