Final Drive Spline Damage - UPDATE

[mikeirion]

The last two tire changes on my IS were done by a local motorcycle shop. There is only 38,000 on the clock. Thinking back, I guess I should have assumed they knew nothing about the special grease and O-rings but neither did I at the time I bought the bike with 8k on it and they did the first tire change. I did a tire change on my 97 a few years ago and thanks to the previous owners diligence, at 62,000 miles everything was pristine on that one. So now that I am retired I am doing this IS tire change myself as well as several other maintenance items. Once I got inside it is obvious they simply mounted a new tire and threw it back together because not only was it mostly dry and brown inside, the "elusive 3rd O-ring" was only half there, don't know where the rest of it is. That means it is still the original factory grease or maybe they put some regular grease on them, I don't know. I realize the pictures are hard to see very well but they are certainly worn. I know the best thing to do is replace both parts, $550 for the two parts alone not including any seals and bearings. How tough is this job, I have the Honda Service Manual and Clymers, it appears that there are several special tools required to remove and install bearings and seals. Or can I go another 10,000 miles and fix it on the next tire change, in the winter rather than bike season. Thanks for reading this dissertation and any insight you can provide.

[The emperor has no clothes]

I'd say with a cleaning, regreasing, and new o-rings you are good for another 10k or more. Check out the pinion cup also. Replace the gear oil, and most importantly follow the correct procedure for tightening everything back up.

[Valkorado]

I can't see the shadowy part, but from what I can see they look very salvageable.  I'd clean them up well, get new rings and a thrust washer if needed lube it up and slap if back together and Bob's your uncle.  Unless I'm just not seeing something.  Others will chime in.

[mello dude]

Just left a looong thread (fight?) from the ST1100/ST1300 forum on what to use on the splines.
Essentially it came out to say, dont use the new Honda M77 moly paste.
Using the Loctite product is a better idea
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001HWBSJW/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

But yes - apply a high quality MOLY product to your splines and go from there..

(@98valk -  posted some interesting options.)

[mikeirion]

In preparation for this project, here is the Molybdenum Disulfide paste I picked up from the local bearing house. It is a 80 gram tube for $12 plus shipping.




https://www.motionindustries.com/productDetail.jsp?sku=00785233

[pancho]

When and if you do decide to replace the splines in the final drive mikeirion, the part can be pressed off a 1500 GW final instead of buying the expensive original parts. 1500 GW final drives are plentiful and cheap (get good pictures of the splines) and a search will turn up several threads outlining the procedure.

Although you can get some miles out of what you have, the splines do have significant wear and that will accelerate further wear.  Moly is good for metal on metal contact, but it has it's limits. I didn't notice any % of Molybdenum content on your tube. As mentioned, pay attention to the nylon thrust washer, lack of it will cause other and more damage.

[sandy]

I sold a '98 tourer with 155K. The splines were still perfect and I always used Bel Ray waterproof grease. Never any moly at all.

[Skinhead]

Those splines are worn, but still have a lot of life left in them if you continue to maintain them properly.  I also use Belray waterproof grease, available at Rocky's in Burton.

[mikeirion]

When and if you do decide to replace the splines in the final drive mikeirion, the part can be pressed off a 1500 GW final instead of buying the expensive original parts.

To make sure I am understanding correctly Pancho, what you are saying is the spline portion can be pressed out of the gear as shown below?.....Thanks, Mike

[98valk]

When and if you do decide to replace the splines in the final drive mikeirion, the part can be pressed off a 1500 GW final instead of buying the expensive original parts.

To make sure I am understanding correctly Pancho, what you are saying is the spline portion can be pressed out of the gear as shown below?.....Thanks, Mike

yes, the spline can be pressed out.  10 ton press avail harbor freight $100 is what I used.

[hubcapsc]

If you go to the trouble to rebuild, get a new (or good) flange... and don't mix up
your Valkyrie and Wing parts in the jumbled mix of the swapout  ...



The guy at the local Napa did my press work for cheap, so I didn't have to
have or buy a press, which I'm sure I could have hurt myself or my parts with
since I have never used one.

Pinion-cups/drive-shafts/u-joints are still available new from Honda for decent
prices...

-Mike "flanges too"

[pancho]

The best thing about pressing off the splines and using Wing parts, is that you use your original Valkyrie ring gear and spacers and you will not need to do a gear lash setup as it will be the same as original.

[Ricky-D]

You do not need to be worrying about replacing anything with the way those splines look. They are only minimally worn and based on the mileage you have on your Valkyrie you should not have to consider replacement till well after 100k miles. Use a good grease like you plan and look and clean them again every time you put a new tire on the bike. You will agree with what I say when the next time you check them and see very little to no additional wear on the splines. Be sure to lube the pinion cup splines also, same thing applies to the pinion cup splines about replacement. Take good pictures so you have a good comparison next time.

***

[Tfrank59]

Those splines are worn, but still have a lot of life left in them if you continue to maintain them properly.  I also use Belray waterproof grease, available at Rocky's in Burton.

This

[Fazer]

I'm no expert, but I think you have received good advice.  Your splines look OK.  I too use the Loc Tite product, but I know many prefer the water proof Bel Ray.  Not moly, but I suspect these owners are diligent about service and clean/re-lube every 10,000 miles.  Pinion cup has two small holes for the purpose of allowong oil from the differential unit in to the cup to lube, but the manual shows a light coating of moly on these splines as well.  It's tempting to pack the whole pinion cup with grease, but I do not think it is advised.  Others may chime in.

[da prez]

  I would re-use the splines. I would not job out the rear end service. Find a local member who will help and teach you to do the rear end service properly.
  ,I did two rear ends yesterday that were jobbed out (Honda) and neither had been done properly.
  The O-rings were not changed and the grease was not cleaned out. One had regular wheel bearing grease stuffed in. The rear end was not removed to service. Maybe I am anal , but I do not trust Honda to do the service as the young mechanics get paid flat rate. Y E S ,there are some good shops .

                                da prez

[SPOFF]

You have to do the rear end yourself at no more than 10,000 miles intervals. The Valkyrie rear end is a piss-poor design. Why do a say this? Because I owned a V-Max with 50% more horsepower and I could slap that back together greased or not and the splines remained brand new. Other than my Valk, I avoid shaft drive motorcycles. I'd rather replace a $80 drive belt every 80,000 miles or replace a $200 sprocket and chain set once or twice a decade.

[Bagger John - #3785]

Maybe I am anal , but I do not trust Honda to do the service as the young mechanics get paid flat rate. Y E S ,there are some good shops .

This is EXACTLY why I do my own servicing, only taking things in to a shop if they have a required specialty/expen$ive tool that I don't.

[The emperor has no clothes]

You have to do the rear end yourself at no more than 10,000 miles intervals. The Valkyrie rear end is a piss-poor design. Why do a say this? Because I owned a V-Max with 50% more horsepower and I could slap that back together greased or not and the splines remained brand new. Other than my Valk, I avoid shaft drive motorcycles. I'd rather replace a $80 drive belt every 80,000 miles or replace a $200 sprocket and chain set once or twice a decade.

Hell, I probably put chains and sprockets on every year on my Yamaha RD350. Granted, the quality of them has probably improved greatly. But I doubt we’d get much more than 10k out of them on our Valkyries.

[98valk]

You have to do the rear end yourself at no more than 10,000 miles intervals. The Valkyrie rear end is a piss-poor design. Why do a say this? Because I owned a V-Max with 50% more horsepower and I could slap that back together greased or not and the splines remained brand new. Other than my Valk, I avoid shaft drive motorcycles. I'd rather replace a $80 drive belt every 80,000 miles or replace a $200 sprocket and chain set once or twice a decade.

The 1500 goldwings use a similar design and many mechanics only had to relube splines every 40k.
so what do u think is different btwn them?
I'm thinking its heat. The GW final drive actually has more surface area via outside support webs to help remove some heat. whereas the valkyire is a smooth surface which doesn't dissipate heat as readily.

[Skinhead]

You have to do the rear end yourself at no more than 10,000 miles intervals. The Valkyrie rear end is a piss-poor design. Why do a say this? Because I owned a V-Max with 50% more horsepower and I could slap that back together greased or not and the splines remained brand new. Other than my Valk, I avoid shaft drive motorcycles. I'd rather replace a $80 drive belt every 80,000 miles or replace a $200 sprocket and chain set once or twice a decade.

The 1500 goldwings use a similar design and many mechanics only had to relube splines every 40k.
so what do u think is different btwn them?
I'm thinking its heat. The GW final drive actually has more surface area via outside support webs to help remove some heat. whereas the valkyire is a smooth surface which doesn't dissipate heat as readily.

It would make sense that the GW and Valk spline is sourced from the same supplier, and processed the same (i.e. machining and heat treatment) but I could be wrong.  It would be interesting to do a hardness test on a set of good vs bad splines to see if the difference is due to process variation.  It really doesn't make sense that GW splines have a much longer service interval.  Has anyone done the GW spline swap on their valk and then neglected to service them with no ill effects?

[The emperor has no clothes]

You have to do the rear end yourself at no more than 10,000 miles intervals. The Valkyrie rear end is a piss-poor design. Why do a say this? Because I owned a V-Max with 50% more horsepower and I could slap that back together greased or not and the splines remained brand new. Other than my Valk, I avoid shaft drive motorcycles. I'd rather replace a $80 drive belt every 80,000 miles or replace a $200 sprocket and chain set once or twice a decade.

The 1500 goldwings use a similar design and many mechanics only had to relube splines every 40k.
so what do u think is different btwn them?
I'm thinking its heat. The GW final drive actually has more surface area via outside support webs to help remove some heat. whereas the valkyire is a smooth surface which doesn't dissipate heat as readily.

It would make sense that the GW and Valk spline is sourced from the same supplier, and processed the same (i.e. machining and heat treatment) but I could be wrong.  It would be interesting to do a hardness test on a set of good vs bad splines to see if the difference is due to process variation.  It really doesn't make sense that GW splines have a much longer service interval.  Has anyone done the GW spline swap on their valk and then neglected to service them with no ill effects?

In relation to heat, I think CA is talking about the extra fin surface on the outside of the Goldwing rear case. Not the heat treatment of the gearset. Personally, I don’t see it. But I’m just a lowly butcher not an engineer.

[Skinhead]

You have to do the rear end yourself at no more than 10,000 miles intervals. The Valkyrie rear end is a piss-poor design. Why do a say this? Because I owned a V-Max with 50% more horsepower and I could slap that back together greased or not and the splines remained brand new. Other than my Valk, I avoid shaft drive motorcycles. I'd rather replace a $80 drive belt every 80,000 miles or replace a $200 sprocket and chain set once or twice a decade.

The 1500 goldwings use a similar design and many mechanics only had to relube splines every 40k.
so what do u think is different btwn them?
I'm thinking its heat. The GW final drive actually has more surface area via outside support webs to help remove some heat. whereas the valkyire is a smooth surface which doesn't dissipate heat as readily.

It would make sense that the GW and Valk spline is sourced from the same supplier, and processed the same (i.e. machining and heat treatment) but I could be wrong.  It would be interesting to do a hardness test on a set of good vs bad splines to see if the difference is due to process variation.  It really doesn't make sense that GW splines have a much longer service interval.  Has anyone done the GW spline swap on their valk and then neglected to service them with no ill effects?

In relation to heat, I think CA is talking about the extra fin surface on the outside of the Goldwing rear case. Not the heat treatment of the gearset. Personally, I don’t see it. But I’m just a lowly butcher not an engineer.

I got what he meant, thank you.  I was referring to the heat treatment or hardening of the splines after machining.  I doubt very much if the heat generated in a final drive with the proper lubricant in it would be enough to affect the wear of the splines.  Now improper lube ON the splines is another story. 

Once again we agree on the butcher/engineer thing.

[98valk]

final drive oil capacity

GW 1500   4.7 oz after draining
                5.7 oz total capacity

Valkyrie     5.1 oz after draining
                5.7 oz  total capacity

[mikeirion]

Thanks to all the input from you guys regarding the wear on my splines I elected to put it back together without buying a new female spline that is in the final drive. Back when I ordered my fork seals and other parts I also purchased a new male spline and when I put the new male in the worn female on the bench it was a very low backlash sort of fit compared to the old male and old female so I decided to use the new male. After getting the wheel back on following all of the proper procedures (loosening the four final drive nuts), as I tightened the axle nut things started getting tight, the wheel no longer spun freely like it did before I tightened the axel nut. I am guessing that using a new male part with a worn female part caused some sort of interference with metal at the bottom of the female that was somewhat deformed, not just worn. Or maybe the new male was just a little longer than the original and it was bottoming out in the female spline. I am going to pull it all back down and put the old male back in but what do you guys think is happening? In the mean time I will look for one of the 1500 Gold Wing gears to press out the spline in preparation for the next tire change...….Thanks, Mike

[hubcapsc]

Once I slapped my wheel back on without remembering to put this
back in and got what you describe (this picture has a Valkyrie one,
and a 1500 wing one):



It is still probably a bad idea to mix new and old splines, I think they are
likely to eat each other up... probably put it back where all the wear matches...

-Mike

[Valker]

Once I slapped my wheel back on without remembering to put this
back in and got what you describe (this picture has a Valkyrie one,
and a 1500 wing one):



It is still probably a bad idea to mix new and old splines, I think they are
likely to eat each other up... probably put it back where all the wear matches...

-Mike

Yep-did this exact thing once....long ago....haven't forgotten since.

[RonW]

Btw, which end of the tube faces the rear wheel?  The narrower end or wider?

[mello dude]

Once I slapped my wheel back on without remembering to put this
back in and got what you describe (this picture has a Valkyrie one,
and a 1500 wing one):



It is still probably a bad idea to mix new and old splines, I think they are
likely to eat each other up... probably put it back where all the wear matches...

-Mike

Whoa wait, what is that? I didn't take any of the pumpkin apart and I'm at molying the splines on the wheel.. I don't remember a piece like that....

[pancho]

The collar will only go in one way Ron, the shiny side fits into the final and fits firmly enough that it generally stays in place when doing servicing or changing a tire.  To answer you question, the flared end of the collar faces the wheel, or "out".

[hubcapsc]

The collar will fall right out and happily hide in your workplace somewhere
especially if you're not looking for it and a day or two passes between
de-install and re-install...

It just jambs in there and the axle goes through... give it a try, shiny end
goes into the drive and it will fit like it belongs  there ... half the time,
maybe even most of the time, it is already there, didn't fall out, and people
service their pumpkins without even thinking about the collar. But if it
falls out and rolls to the side and a day or two passes...

-Mike

[Tfrank59]

Thanks to all the input from you guys regarding the wear on my splines I elected to put it back together without buying a new female spline that is in the final drive. Back when I ordered my fork seals and other parts I also purchased a new male spline and when I put the new male in the worn female on the bench it was a very low backlash sort of fit compared to the old male and old female so I decided to use the new male. After getting the wheel back on following all of the proper procedures (loosening the four final drive nuts), as I tightened the axle nut things started getting tight, the wheel no longer spun freely like it did before I tightened the axel nut. I am guessing that using a new male part with a worn female part caused some sort of interference with metal at the bottom of the female that was somewhat deformed, not just worn. Or maybe the new male was just a little longer than the original and it was bottoming out in the female spline. I am going to pull it all back down and put the old male back in but what do you guys think is happening? In the mean time I will look for one of the 1500 Gold Wing gears to press out the spline in preparation for the next tire change...….Thanks, Mike

I did basically the same thing when I did my first tire change-- the PO (or his mechanic) failed to put any grease of any kind in the splines, so they had worn about like yours.  I was pretty pissed cuz had I known that I wouldn't have ridden 5k on the tire that was on there (still had some tread) and would have prevented that much more wear.  Anyway, I bought a new-ish male spline on ebay and put it in with the partially worm female spline, thinking at least I've reduced some of the backlash in there and would eventually replace the female (internal) spline.  Well, in the intervening time I managed to acquire a whole new Valk pumpkin, which had almost new looking splines (male and female), so I stowed it thinking if the pumpkin with the worn splines worsens I'll just change out the whole thing.  It's since been over four years and over 45k miles, I regularly service my rear drive when I change the tire (roughly every 13-16k) and it's never gotten more wear on the splines, not that I can see at least.  Bottom line, just service the splines when you do the tire and you'll be fine.  It's not the best setup for a rear drive--maybe the Goldwing's is better--but it's not a big deal and if the person doing the work would just put SOMETHING LIKE GREASE in there it generally does the job.

[Paladin528]

You have to do the rear end yourself at no more than 10,000 miles intervals. The Valkyrie rear end is a piss-poor design. Why do a say this? Because I owned a V-Max with 50% more horsepower and I could slap that back together greased or not and the splines remained brand new. Other than my Valk, I avoid shaft drive motorcycles. I'd rather replace a $80 drive belt every 80,000 miles or replace a $200 sprocket and chain set once or twice a decade.

The 1500 goldwings use a similar design and many mechanics only had to relube splines every 40k.
so what do u think is different btwn them?
I'm thinking its heat. The GW final drive actually has more surface area via outside support webs to help remove some heat. whereas the valkyire is a smooth surface which doesn't dissipate heat as readily.

I have a Goldwing rear end sitting right here next to a Valkyrie rear end.  the only discernable difference is the 4 bolts that mount it to the swingarm are a different pattern.  besides that they are identical.

[Tfrank59]

You have to do the rear end yourself at no more than 10,000 miles intervals. The Valkyrie rear end is a piss-poor design. Why do a say this? Because I owned a V-Max with 50% more horsepower and I could slap that back together greased or not and the splines remained brand new. Other than my Valk, I avoid shaft drive motorcycles. I'd rather replace a $80 drive belt every 80,000 miles or replace a $200 sprocket and chain set once or twice a decade.

The 1500 goldwings use a similar design and many mechanics only had to relube splines every 40k.
so what do u think is different btwn them?
I'm thinking its heat. The GW final drive actually has more surface area via outside support webs to help remove some heat. whereas the valkyire is a smooth surface which doesn't dissipate heat as readily.

I'm thinking it's not heat build up that requires more maint. on the Valk rear drives.  My pumpkin doesn't get very hot even on really hot days and a long ride, certainly not hot enough to compromise rubber seals or break down gear or other lube inside.

[Valkpilot]

I have a Goldwing rear end sitting right here next to a Valkyrie rear end.  the only discernable difference is the 4 bolts that mount it to the swingarm are a different pattern.  besides that they are identical.

Functionally, from a lube and service standpoint, yes.

The ring and pinion gear spacing is different between the two, so while the female spline hub cup and star drive male hubs are interchangeable, you can't just drop a GW ring gear in a Valk rear drive.  That's why you have to press the cup out of the GW ring gear and press it into the Valk ring gear.

[mikeirion]

The collar will fall right out and happily hide in your workplace somewhere
especially if you're not looking for it and a day or two passes between
de-install and re-install...
-Mike

That is exactly what happened hubcapsc, I did not knowingly remove the spacer from the final drive but while I was cleaning the final drive it fell out on the bench and camouflaged itself amongst other shiny cylindrical things. All is good now, I put back in the new male spline with the worn female and all the proper lube and new O-rings. Thanks for all the help everyone, much appreciated. Now to figure out what got disconnected in the process of all the other things I just updated. I press the starter button, the headlight goes out but no cranking.

[hubcapsc]

Drawing on other things I've done  ...

It could just be that the on/off button at the throttle got mashed while you weren't looking?

How much stuff did you take apart? It won't go if you put the tip-over-switch behind
the center cover on upside down...

-Mike

[mikeirion]

I rebuilt the forks and put on a new windshield so I was under the IS fairing and had the inner fairing covers off so I am suspicious it may be something on the harness. The other things I did were the rear end maintenance along with new tires. Although the side covers are off I didn't do anything under them. It is still on the jack so I need to let her down and check the kick stand. Kill switch is good. I'm not too worried, just happy I got the rear end issues finished.