Carb Assy Not Directly Grounded To Chassis

[raaamad]

During my recent De-Smog, and Dan-Marc install, I noted that the carb assy is not directly grounded to the MC chassis (the actual path for current flow is through the throttle and clutch cables). IMHO, this is a significant oversight in the design of this beautiful machine. Not only is there not a nice path for grounding the Dan-Marc valve, the factory default for eliminating static electricity in the carb assy is not addressed.

My solution, is to ground the carb assy as shown in the attached photos, to the 1&2 cylinders' coil ground.

[98valk]

only EFI systems need a ground. carbs do not.

please provide a link indicating they need to be grounded. thanks

[raaamad]

Upon further review:

"Clutch Cable" should be 'Enrichener Cable"

At my advanced age, it easy to confuse clutch cable with choke cable

Sorry about that

Another Senior Moment
  

[raaamad]

98 Valk, I agree that there are countless carburetors in operation that are not specifically grounded and performing very well.

Being from an aviation background, my experience has been that everything has a specific ground to chassis.

In my particular case, I was concerned about current flow for my Dan-Marc valve, and I pleasantly killed 2 birds with one stone, and my new valve is working very well. I understand, that many people have experienced issues with hard starting, loss of acceleration, intermittent operation, misfiring etc. and this is a relatively easy fix.

Just sayin........

[Chrisj CMA]

I have a '97 with 165,000 miles. The carbs have never been worked on and are just fine. I don't think that grounding thing is a real issue.  Come to think of
it every motorcycle I have ever owned had rubber at both ends of the carbs so they would be technically not grounded. But also insulated from any electrical draw as well.

I don't see a problem

[98valk]

98 Valk, I agree that there are countless carburetors in operation that are not specifically grounded and performing very well.

Being from an aviation background, my experience has been that everything has a specific ground to chassis.

In my particular case, I was concerned about current flow for my Dan-Marc valve, and I pleasantly killed 2 birds with one stone, and my new valve is working very well. I understand, that many people have experienced issues with hard starting, loss of acceleration, intermittent operation, misfiring etc. and this is a relatively easy fix.

Just sayin........

as soon as I read "eliminating static electricity" I knew u had an aviation background.  Static Electricity is not a problem with carb'd engines. There is nothing spinning/rotating in the air to cause it IMO.

[WintrSol]

98 Valk, I agree that there are countless carburetors in operation that are not specifically grounded and performing very well.

Being from an aviation background, my experience has been that everything has a specific ground to chassis.

In my particular case, I was concerned about current flow for my Dan-Marc valve, and I pleasantly killed 2 birds with one stone, and my new valve is working very well. I understand, that many people have experienced issues with hard starting, loss of acceleration, intermittent operation, misfiring etc. and this is a relatively easy fix.

Just sayin........

as soon as I read "eliminating static electricity" I knew u had an aviation background.  Static Electricity is not a problem with carb'd engines. There is nothing spinning/rotating in the air to cause it IMO.

In an aircraft, it can be a problem, which is why there are rules for this. There can be a high static potential (Voltage) between layers of air; this can induce arcing in various parts of an aircraft, which can be lethal if it involves fuel. As they say, aircraft safety rules are made from tombstones.

[John Schmidt]

Upon further review:

"Clutch Cable" should be 'Enrichener Cable"

At my advanced age, it easy to confuse clutch cable with choke cable

Sorry about that

Another Senior Moment
  

Actually, the Honda shop manual calls it a "choke cable" in the drawing on pages 1-21 thru 24 and again on pages 1-28 thru 31. Next, in section 5 dealing with the fuel system and the carbs, various pictures refer to the "choke cable" and "choke link."  Their function is to activate the enrichers on the carbs. Sound like Honda may have been having trouble making up their minds. 

[pancho]

While the carb assembly may not require a ground, (I grounded my fuel valve to the frame by making a harness for it) the forks are a different story. If you want to ground things to the trees to reduce the amount of wiring running along the neck for spots, aux lighting, audio etc., you must run a ground from the frame or battery to the trees so you do not draw current through the head bearings.  This would cause microscopic sparking and pitting (basically welding)of the balls and races over time.

[raaamad]

Excellent point

When Variable Speed Drives (they convert AC to variable DC) were first introduced about 30 years ago, they would 'eat' motor bearings in very short order. It took a while before VFD 'rated' motors were introduced to solve the problem. All they had to do was ground the armature to the motor housing so the current wouldn't flow through the bearings.

Food for thought

[gordonv]

ps: Welcome to the forum. Enjoy the madness.

Would be nice to introduce yourself in the General forum section, and add your location to your profile. 

[Bagger John - #3785]

While the carb assembly may not require a ground, (I grounded my fuel valve to the frame by making a harness for it) the forks are a different story. If you want to ground things to the trees to reduce the amount of wiring running along the neck for spots, aux lighting, audio etc., you must run a ground from the frame or battery to the trees so you do not draw current through the head bearings.  This would cause microscopic sparking and pitting (basically welding)of the balls and races over time.

The bike's wiring harness includes ground runs which (IIRC) attach to one of the headlight bucket mounting screws..thereby putting the entire front end at battery negative potential.

Regardless...if I have to run auxiliary power from a battery source into the bucket (for such things as spotlight power), a BHGL (Big Honkin' Ground Lead) accompanies it. Both are made from as fine-stranded #10 as I can obtain. This lead attaches to another of the bucket mounting screws, as does the negative for installed electrical accessories.

[Paladin528]

I grounded my dan marc to the Coil ground directly.

The same issues do not exist with a motorcycle as exist with aircraft.  There is no static charge build up around the motorcycle like their is with the airframe of an aircraft.  There is also no real electronics that can be affected by an static buildup any way.  Definitley not enough buildup to cause a discharge in the carb area.

Every motorcycle I have ever had had the carbs isolated.  The choke and throttle cables are not a ground source either since they are isolated by plastic at one end so there is no ground.

[pancho]

While the carb assembly may not require a ground, (I grounded my fuel valve to the frame by making a harness for it) the forks are a different story. If you want to ground things to the trees to reduce the amount of wiring running along the neck for spots, aux lighting, audio etc., you must run a ground from the frame or battery to the trees so you do not draw current through the head bearings.  This would cause microscopic sparking and pitting (basically welding)of the balls and races over time.

The bike's wiring harness includes ground runs which (IIRC) attach to one of the headlight bucket mounting screws..thereby putting the entire front end at battery negative potential.

Regardless...if I have to run auxiliary power from a battery source into the bucket (for such things as spotlight power), a BHGL (Big Honkin' Ground Lead) accompanies it. Both are made from as fine-stranded #10 as I can obtain. This lead attaches to another of the bucket mounting screws, as does the negative for installed electrical accessories.

Hey John,   I wouldn't normally point this out this, but in this case, someone relying on your statement about a ground being provided to the headlight bucket and using it for a ground for auxiliary equipment would be in danger of causing damage to their bike. While a ground to the headlight bucket has been common on many motorcycles, the Valkyrie did not provide this. Instead the Valkyrie Standard and Tourer models use direct wiring for signals, indicators and gauges without ever grounding the bucket or trees. This can be confirmed by a visual inspection and checking sheet 7 (ground bus) of the wiring diagram.
       Your way of running a separate ground of fine stranded conductor up front is the way to go for trouble free powering of added electrical devices. I'm using the wiring harness that came with my audio faring right now, but will run additional power and distribution when I add the amplifier.

[Bagger John - #3785]

... While a ground to the headlight bucket has been common on many motorcycles, the Valkyrie did not provide this.

Notice I said "IIRC". Evidently I may not have! 

However...I'm pretty certain that my '99 Tourer has a lug on one of the green (GND) OEM harness wires and said lug is attached to one of the bucket mounting bolts. I'm going to be getting into that area soon and I'll double-check it...updating this thread if needed.

[pancho]

I added a ground to the trees and tubes since there was a Cobra light bar on my bike when I went after it. The spots on the light bar draw their ground current from the mount point (tubes) and I discovered by research that there was no ground provided except through the head bearings, at least on my bike and relying on what is shown on page seven of the wiring diagram, not on any Tourers or Standards. I grounded under the lower tree since my bucket is pretty jammed with a headlight modulator and other wiring modifications.  If you have a Ground in your bucket John, maybe it was added.

[WintrSol]

I added a ground to the trees and tubes since there was a Cobra light bar on my bike when I went after it. The spots on the light bar draw their ground current from the mount point (tubes) and I discovered by research that there was no ground provided except through the head bearings, at least on my bike and relying on what is shown on page seven of the wiring diagram, not on any Tourers or Standards. I grounded under the lower tree since my bucket is pretty jammed with a headlight modulator and other wiring modifications.  If you have a Ground in your bucket John, maybe it was added.

Now you have me concerned about how my light bar is grounded. Got to check after the tornadoes pass.

[98valk]

when grounded to the trees, doesn't that still send a ground through the steering stem and into the frame? I think it is best to run the ground wire back to battery or ground connection on the frame.

[pancho]

Guess I should have explained better, that connection I show runs back to a point on the frame CA.  

It will be interesting to hear what you find WintrSol, there are a lot of light bars out there. Storm line recently passed here, hope you guys stay safe.

[Paladin528]

Just like your car this is a chasis grounded vehicle.  If you get continuity from a frame ground point to wherever you are terminating then you will be fine.

[WintrSol]

Just like your car this is a chasis grounded vehicle.  If you get continuity from a frame ground point to wherever you are terminating then you will be fine.

Most cars and bikes no longer use the chassis to distribute ground for most things, like lights; there are dedicated ground wiring in the harness, instead. That's because the current passing through seams and bolted parts generates corrosion and creates electrical noise. I'm always looking for rusted joints on my old CB450 because of this. I'll have to check my Valk to see if the light bar is grounded to a point that gets a wired ground back into the harness, so I'm sure it is not going through the bearings.

[Paladin528]

New vehicles that rely on digital electonics and shielded wiring yes but a valk isn't even close that.
Anything that needs shielding is contained in the audio system.  Look where the ground from the battery goes.  Directly to the engine.  All ground posts are on the frame.  Chasis ground old school.

[WintrSol]

Yes, some things use chassis ground, like the alternator, but the lighting system, ICM, and other devices have direct harness grounds, which eventually tie to the chassis, but are distributed through the harness. It is marked clearly in the wiring diagrams.

[WintrSol]

Guess I should have explained better, that connection I show runs back to a point on the frame CA.  

It will be interesting to hear what you find WintrSol, there are a lot of light bars out there. Storm line recently passed here, hope you guys stay safe.

I found the light bar depended on its chassis mount for return, so all the current through the lights went through the head bearings to the main chassis. As it turns out, it has multiple threaded holes for fitting it to the bracket, so I chose an unused one, and added a ground from it to the coil bracket on the LH frame. At least most of the current will be bypassing the bearings, now.

[Paladin528]

Believe me I know where you are comin from but I wire my bike like a '78 chevy not an A-320.  I have been an aircraft Maintenance Engineer for over 30 years.  Just dont over think it.

[pancho]

At least most of the current will be bypassing the bearings, now.

When it really counts (when ball rotation loses continuity and causes sparking) 100 percent will flow through the ground path you provided and protect the balls and races. 

I don't know that this has ever come up and been recognized as a problem we cause on our bikes,, I wonder if this is responsible for some of the reported head bearing failures?

[Bighead]

You guys worry about too mich unnecessary Caca. Ride your damn motorcycle! Just sayin.

[WintrSol]

And I thought providing a proper ground instead of random contacts through bearings was maintenance; only 43 years in electronics engineering.

[Bighead]

And I thought providing a proper ground instead of random contacts through bearings was maintenance; only 43 years in electronics engineering.

if aimed at me I must ask your point?

[WintrSol]

And I thought providing a proper ground instead of random contacts through bearings was maintenance; only 43 years in electronics engineering.

if aimed at me I must ask your point?

It was more aimed at Paladin528's wiring and maintenance comment. Just ride it when it isn't wired properly is a different issue.

[Bighead]

Too many over think things that have nothing to do with anything. Must be engineers. Lived across the street from one once who counted the bricks on his house 4 X a years just to make sure his house wasnt sinking or someone wasnt stealing bricks I guess.

[Shakie NC]

Pancho where did you get the fork shields and clamps

[pancho]

I made them Shakie, milled the clamps out of a piece of three inch aluminum round bar and cut the shields from aluminum plate. I did a post on the process when I made them, showing off the abundance of time on my hands...         

Guess I could have used different hardware, seems I was going for the industrial look.

[pancho]

You guys worry about too mich unnecessary Caca. Ride your damn motorcycle! Just sayin.

This is the Tech board,, we tend to discuss technical things here.

[98valk]

You guys worry about too mich unnecessary Caca. Ride your damn motorcycle! Just sayin.

well it looks like you do mods, so stop your yapping  and trying to cause trouble. 

http://www.valkyrieforum.com/bbs/index.php/topic,106736.0/topicseen.html
Bighead
Member
Posts: 6754
Madison Alabama
   
Re: 2001 Standard Windscreen/shield options
« Reply #1 on: Yesterday at 10:35:39 PM »
   Reply with quoteQuote
Nothing wrong with the NC shield had one for anout 80k miles. Have a fairing now. No not any standard came with a shield and ues a tourer shield will work. But it is stationary not adjustable. And very high dollar if you can find one in half decent shape.

[WintrSol]

Too many over think things that have nothing to do with anything. Must be engineers. Lived across the street from one once who counted the bricks on his house 4 X a years just to make sure his house wasnt sinking or someone wasnt stealing bricks I guess.

Engineer, guilty as charged. But, once my team installed equipment in an older building, and found that, decades before, the fuse box was wired with the neutral (return) line wired through a fuse, and the hot phase direct. It worked for decades, but if that fuse had blown ...

[98valk]

Too many over think things that have nothing to do with anything. Must be engineers. Lived across the street from one once who counted the bricks on his house 4 X a years just to make sure his house wasnt sinking or someone wasnt stealing bricks I guess.

Engineer, guilty as charged. But, once my team installed equipment in an older building, and found that, decades before, the fuse box was wired with the neutral (return) line wired through a fuse, and the hot phase direct. It worked for decades, but if that fuse had blown ...

was a mechanical engineer technician, the go between, engineers and shop workers for 33 yrs. so I had to know just enough from both sides of the aisle to be dangerous to both.
was inspecting some machinery on a naval ship one time. two separate pieces of equipment sitting right next to each other. both should have separate 440v supply lines with individual breakers, normal install. So I'm looking for the second breaker panel and realize there is only one. So turns out the electrician ran one line from the breaker to the equipment and tapped off of that unit and ran a line to the next unit. was the worst install I ever had. I grabbed the general foreman, I don't think he ever stopped shaking his head.   The engineering drawings had it correct.

[Bagger John - #3785]

...the fuse box was wired with the neutral (return) line wired through a fuse, and the hot phase direct. It worked for decades, but if that fuse had blown ...

Kenwood did that faux pas on a number of their AC-powered ham radio transceivers, and they weren't the only one.

[Jims99]

I had put up a post about my forks starting to flake and  deteriorate. Could this be from the lack of ground to the triples? My original set got pretty bad so I got another set and polished them, installed, and within the first 2000 miles I noticed them starting to flake. Any thoughts? 

[Paladin528]

polished as in stripped off the protective coating?