More gun stuff- Gun Values

[fudgie]

I always liked lever actions growing up. When I passed My EMT class in 97 I went and bought a new Winchester .45 Long colt. Only shot a dozen rounds through it. Mostly at targets and a occasional river snapping turtle. I was wondering what the value is? Not sure where to look, and if someone could point me in the right direction I'd appreciate it.  Winchester Mod 94 AE .45 Long colt. I think its a 'trapper' model, is about 3' long or less in length. To make it Valk related, I took her out of 'winter storage' and rode to the gun show. It was cold on the way but nice going home. Bought 50 rds of .45 lc and a shoulder holster for my .380. Soon as Kit gets home we are going to blow up pumkins!  A guy asked me 'where I keep a gun on my bike at'? I tossed my .380 in the bag and said 'right there or on my hip'! He laughed.

[Pete]

Average condition $350, excellent condition $450 to $500 in my area. Thanks Pete.

[gregc]

Try    www.gunbroker.com              or           auctionarms.com                either one should give you an idea.

[Doc Moose]

Two different ref books I have (2009) say 400-450 in excellent condition.  Depends how bad the buyer wants to buy it tho.  YMMV.

[fudgie]

Two different ref books I have (2009) say 400-450 in excellent condition.  Depends how bad the buyer wants to buy it tho.  YMMV.

Sweet. Thx.  I remember paying $250 or less back then. It is in excellant shape with a dark, I assume walnut stock. Even darker wood grain.

We just got in from shooting. Boy that was fun. I hit a pop can on my 1st try at 40 yrd open sight, standing. Then we gutted a pumkin. Then Kit put a hole in my bucket. 

Shooting it makes me want to get into the cowboy Action shooting.

[Jess Tolbirt]

i had the same one and an 1875 colt 45 thumbuster six shooter that was passed down from my dad from his dad,,,
some a**H*** thief broke into my home and stoled them along with a few other things...if i ever catch him he better give his soul to God cause his a** is mine..

just a few years ago i found out that there is a difference in the todays LC ammo than in yester years...i was lucky the pistol didnt blow up in my face....
black powder,,,smokeless powder hell i didnt know the difference but i did notice that the pistol did have a little kick in it punch...

[fudgie]

i had the same one and an 1875 colt 45 thumbuster six shooter that was passed down from my dad from his dad,,,
some a**H*** thief broke into my home and stoled them along with a few other things...if i ever catch him he better give his soul to God cause his a** is mine..

just a few years ago i found out that there is a difference in the todays LC ammo than in yester years...i was lucky the pistol didnt blow up in my face....
black powder,,,smokeless powder hell i didnt know the difference but i did notice that the pistol did have a little kick in it punch...

Reloaded told me today there is a diff between rifle rounds and handgun rounds, such as the Judge. Its in the primers. HG primers are softer then the rifle. He said you may have trouble shooting rifle rounds in a HG.

You right tho. I shot my 12yr old rounds 1st then did my new ones. Definitly noticed more of a kick with the new ones.

[Pete]

Black powder = lower pressure,  smokeless powder = higher pressure. One should NEVER shoot smokeless powder in a black powder gun of any type. Yes I know some do it and get by with it, but it is a bad idea and not worth the risk.

There are several modern black powder substitutes that can be used in place of black powder.

45 Colt is a pistol cartridge by definition and most if not all standard 45 Colt factory ammunition is loaded with pistol primers. The primer pockets were designed for PISTOL primers. Not to say that some reloader cannot force rifle primer into the case, they can. But it is not a good idea.

Very old 45 colt brass known as 'balloon head" brass should not be used with modern reloading data.
Actually a cautious reloader would discard/destroy/donate the old brass to a cartridge collector, so it could not be used.

Caution there is some newer speciality 45 Colt  ammunition that should be confined to modern high pressure capable guns. These can be identified by reading the packaging directions and cautions on the boxes of the ammunition.

Thanks Pete.

[solo1]

The .45 Colt has become known as the .45 Long Colt but that's not the proper name for it.  I guess that got started to differentiate it from the .45ACP (.45Auto).  The cartridges are different, one is a rimless, the other is a rimmed, one is much longer.

The .45 Colt cartridge has been around for over 125 years and is a very good cartridge.  Originally loaded with black powder and relatively low LUP pressures, the old cases and period firearms weren't made to handle current pressures of 40, and 50K CUP.  One must be sure that you have the right loads for your firearm, whether an antique Colt or modern firearms. 

As an old timer reloader, I am worried about some reloaders new to the process, have very little knowledge of of the limitations of various cartridges and firearms.  Some probably don't know that the .380 Browning Short(.38ACP)  is different than the .38 Special, .38 Super,. or the old S&W .38.  I won't even talk about the Makorov or 9MM  Luger (Parabellum.)

Just the other day, I was lurking on a "gun" forum and this guy had bought a Bersa Thunder .380. He was told that the Bersa would shoot the .22 long rifle cartridge just by changing the magazine.  He believed it!

[Serk]

Bersa Thunder .380. He was told that the Bersa would shoot the .22 long rifle cartridge just by changing the magazine.  He believed it!

 

That's just down right scary!!!

I'm relatively new to the world of re-loading (2 years now), but I do my homework thoroughly before a cartridge goes on my press...

[fudgie]

Bersa Thunder .380. He was told that the Bersa would shoot the .22 long rifle cartridge just by changing the magazine.  He believed it!

 

That's just down right scary!!!

I'm relatively new to the world of re-loading (2 years now), but I do my homework thoroughly before a cartridge goes on my press...

+1         

I haven't reloaded in over 10 years. It was a winter ritual. I bet we did over 1,000 rounds of .223 that winter.

[fudgie]

The .45 Colt has become known as the .45 Long Colt but that's not the proper name for it.  I guess that got started to differentiate it from the .45ACP (.45Auto).  The cartridges are different, one is a rimless, the other is a rimmed, one is much longer.

The .45 Colt cartridge has been around for over 125 years and is a very good cartridge.  Originally loaded with black powder and relatively low LUP pressures, the old cases and period firearms weren't made to handle current pressures of 40, and 50K CUP.  One must be sure that you have the right loads for your firearm, whether an antique Colt or modern firearms. 

As an old timer reloader, I am worried about some reloaders new to the process, have very little knowledge of of the limitations of various cartridges and firearms.  Some probably don't know that the .380 Browning Short(.38ACP)  is different than the .38 Special, .38 Super,. or the old S&W .38.  I won't even talk about the Makorov or 9MM  Luger (Parabellum.)

Just the other day, I was lurking on a "gun" forum and this guy had bought a Bersa Thunder .380. He was told that the Bersa would shoot the .22 long rifle cartridge just by changing the magazine.  He believed it!

Thx for the info!  Reloader I talked to said he would want to see the gun and run a few rounds through it to be sure it is the exact bullet for the gun and job.

[solo1]

Shooting it makes me want to get into the cowboy Action shooting.

Awhile back i was thinking about getting into cowboy action.  I have a Stoeger 12 guage coach gun and a Ruger Vaquero 44special/magnum that shoots to the point of aim with its fixed sights when using a mild .44 Special load.  I don't have a rifle though that would qualify.  For that matter, my knees wouldn't qualify so I'd take too long to complete the course. 
I haven't checked the cowboy action rules lately so maybe the .44 special wouldn't qualify anyway.  At any rate, Ruger doesn't make the Vaquero in .44 mag, just .357? and .45 Colt.  What's with that?

[Ferris Leets]

The .45 Colt has become known as the .45 Long Colt but that's not the proper name for it.  I guess that got started to differentiate it from the .45ACP (.45Auto).  The cartridges are different, one is a rimless, the other is a rimmed, one is much longer.

The .45 Colt cartridge has been around for over 125 years and is a very good cartridge.  Originally loaded with black powder and relatively low LUP pressures, the old cases and period firearms weren't made to handle current pressures of 40, and 50K CUP.  One must be sure that you have the right loads for your firearm, whether an antique Colt or modern firearms.  

As an old timer reloader, I am worried about some reloaders new to the process, have very little knowledge of of the limitations of various cartridges and firearms.  Some probably don't know that the .380 Browning Short(.38ACP)  is different than the .38 Special, .38 Super,. or the old S&W .38.  I won't even talk about the Makorov or 9MM  Luger (Parabellum.)

Just the other day, I was lurking on a "gun" forum and this guy had bought a Bersa Thunder .380. He was told that the Bersa would shoot the .22 long rifle cartridge just by changing the magazine.  He believed it!

I have a colt .38ACP, I never have seen it referred to as a .380 Browning short.  It is not a short anything.  I had to start loading for it because the ammo is NOT available.  The cartridge became obsolete is 1929 when they started the .38 Super.  Identical cartridge loaded too much higher pressure.  Mine is a 1902 model.

[¿spoom]

I'm guessing folks who don't know the difference will figure it out pretty quick when they pick up a reloading handbook and see all those variations listed and pictured-unless we're to assume they were planning on just filling the brass up with a funnel and hammering in a bullet.

[solo1]

The .45 Colt has become known as the .45 Long Colt but that's not the proper name for it.  I guess that got started to differentiate it from the .45ACP (.45Auto).  The cartridges are different, one is a rimless, the other is a rimmed, one is much longer.

The .45 Colt cartridge has been around for over 125 years and is a very good cartridge.  Originally loaded with black powder and relatively low LUP pressures, the old cases and period firearms weren't made to handle current pressures of 40, and 50K CUP.  One must be sure that you have the right loads for your firearm, whether an antique Colt or modern firearms.  

As an old timer reloader, I am worried about some reloaders new to the process, have very little knowledge of of the limitations of various cartridges and firearms.  Some probably don't know that the .380 Browning Short(.38ACP)  is different than the .38 Special, .38 Super,. or the old S&W .38.  I won't even talk about the Makorov or 9MM  Luger (Parabellum.)

Just the other day, I was lurking on a "gun" forum and this guy had bought a Bersa Thunder .380. He was told that the Bersa would shoot the .22 long rifle cartridge just by changing the magazine.  He believed it!

I have a colt .38ACP, I never have seen it referred to as a .380 Browning short.  It is not a short anything.  I had to start loading for it because the ammo is NOT available.  The cartridge became obsolete is 1929 when they started the .38 Super.  Identical cartridge loaded too much higher pressure.  Mine is a 1902 model.
[/quote

The .380 ACP also was definitely known  as  the .380 Browning Short possible because the .380 was also known as the 9mm Kurz (German for short), and the  .380 automatic, among other names.  The .38 Super was indeed intended to replace the .380ACP. However, the 38 Super's cartridge case length is .900 inch while the .380ACP case length is .680, almost a 1/4"  shorter. The .380 lives on and the 38 Super has its followers but the 38 Automatic, another cartridge, fell out of favor in 1929 after the 38 Super became the round to have.  

This rather confusing history merely points out that the shooter should be absolutely sure what cartridge his firearm is chambered for.

As a final confusing thought, the 244 rifle cartridge is exactly the same as the 6mm Remington. A marketing ploy in 1963 by Remington changed the name but not the cartridge.  The 6mm cailiber is especially troublesome as there are many wildcat and benchrest versions of this.

Source of Information: Hornady's 965 page Cartridge Reloading Manual edition 2007

I've been handloading for years and have made it a point to research this confusing issue.

[Ferris Leets]

I have a colt .38ACP, I never have seen it referred to as a .380 Browning short.  It is not a short anything.  I had to start loading for it because the ammo is NOT available.  The cartridge became obsolete is 1929 when they started the .38 Super.  Identical cartridge loaded too much higher pressure.  Mine is a 1902 model.
[/quote

The .380 ACP also was definitely known  as  the .380 Browning Short possible because the .380 was also known as the 9mm Kurz (German for short), and the  .380 automatic, among other names.  The .38 Super was indeed intended to replace the .380ACP. However, the 38 Super's cartridge case length is .900 inch while the .380ACP case length is .680, almost a 1/4"  shorter. The .380 lives on and the 38 Super has its followers but the 38 Automatic, another cartridge, fell out of favor in 1929 after the 38 Super became the round to have.  

This rather confusing history merely points out that the shooter should be absolutely sure what cartridge his firearm is chambered for.

As a final confusing thought, the 244 rifle cartridge is exactly the same as the 6mm Remington. A marketing ploy in 1963 by Remington changed the name but not the cartridge.  The 6mm cailiber is especially troublesome as there are many wildcat and benchrest versions of this.

Source of Information: Hornady's 965 page Cartridge Reloading Manual edition 2007

I've been handloading for years and have made it a point to research this confusing issue.
[/quote]

The 380 short was not the precursor to the .38 Super.  The .38ACP was.  I have not looked in my books but I have never heard of a .380 short, I have heard the .380 referred to as the 9mm kurz.  The .38ACP and .38 Super are exactly the same case dimensions.

[solo1]

The .380ACP has also been called the 9mm Kurtz, 9mm Corto, and the 9mm Short.  There has been reference to it being called the Browning 9mm Short but the reference to it being called the.380 Browning Short was evidently something like the .45 Colt being called the .45 Long Colt, by usage, not nomenclature so you're right.

You are also right in stating that the 38 ACP case is exactly the same size as the 38 Super.  I learned something here.  That would be a booby trap for unsuspecting owners of pistols made for the 38 ACP and attempting to shoot 38 Super ammo in them.

I'm old enough that I should get my facts straight but not too old or proud to learn something, Thank you!

[Ferris Leets]

Solo1,
        It is good to talk to someone who thinks before they get offended.
        I had never thought about the .380ACP and the .38ACP having such similar nomenclture.  I definetly see how the confusion could happen.  I once bought a box marked .38ACP, I fired ONE and realized that they were reloads meant for the .38 Super.
        The 1902 model I have is an excellent shooter.  If you ever get in my part of the country we can take it out.  Now that I reload for it I can shoot all I want and then make more!

[Varmintmist]

Two different ref books I have (2009) say 400-450 in excellent condition.  Depends how bad the buyer wants to buy it tho.  YMMV.

Sweet. Thx.  I remember paying $250 or less back then. It is in excellant shape with a dark, I assume walnut stock. Even darker wood grain.

Before you decide to retire, in my experiance the book value and what firearms go for are 2 totally separate things. Unless you find someone who wants exactly what you have and has no compunction about price, you will never see book value.

Older 94's are a hot item though since Winchester went out of buisness. Older means pre 64 for the most part.

I wish I had the 94 32 Special that was stolen from my dads place, he got it after he came back during Korea. I never liked it that much, didnt shoot it well, but it was my first big game rifle.

[¿spoom]

The .380ACP has also been called the 9mm Kurtz, 9mm Corto, and the 9mm Short.  There has been reference to it being called the Browning 9mm Short but the reference to it being called the.380 Browning Short was evidently something like the .45 Colt being called the .45 Long Colt, by usage, not nomenclature so you're right.

You are also right in stating that the 38 ACP case is exactly the same size as the 38 Super.  I learned something here.  That would be a booby trap for unsuspecting owners of pistols made for the 38 ACP and attempting to shoot 38 Super ammo in them.

I'm old enough that I should get my facts straight but not too old or proud to learn something, Thank you!

You may also find current .380 ammo listed as "9mm Court" Can't remember the brand name (It was French or Belgian) but a few years back I bought a thousand rounds of it in 95gr. FMJ. Good stuff for plinking and never had a FTF but it had boxer primers that didn't lend itself to reloading. Likewise some current Hungarian "9mm Browning Short" .380 made by a company called MFS. I use the Remington "Golden Saber High Performance Jacket " 102gr. brass jacket HP rounds for actual carry but the MFS ones are great for plinking- they are less than $20 per 50 compared to just under $30 per 25 for the Remington.