need help - don't know where to go from here - Solved - Thanks for the help.

[srteach]

98 Valkyrie standard. 4deg timing wheel installed 8 months ago, new ECT installed last week. I have reinstalled the 35 idle screws (was running 38s for last 18 months). Originally done with carbs in the bike. Carbs balanced and all slow screws set to the factory recommended 2 1/4 turns out.
Something seems to have gone wrong with cylinders 1, 2, and 5 not contributing to the power. I pulled the carb bank and have corrected my mistake with cyl 5, but 1 and 2 are still not contributing. I have good spark and fuel flows through the drain screw when open (both carbs). I have not checked timing or compression on those two (tools needed). This issue happens at all rpms, but it is more noticeable at low rpms.
I am not sure this problem is due to the slow jets, it may have been masked by the 38s and just exposed when I went back to the 35s.
I am looking for suggestions (after compression and timing checks) on what to do next. I have the Honda manual for procedures.
I don't trust the local Honda shop to do good work, so it is up to me.

[nogrey]

Hey srteach! Howdy neighbor! I live in Nampa. Where are you?
I’m happy to help if I can. Your symptoms sound as though perhaps something didn’t go back together correctly. You had your carbs out, which means you had the air box out as well. Also, the downdraft tubes (chrome) came off. So I would begin by checking that the tubes from the airbox all got reconnected and that there are no crimps or leaks. They always show up on the back side of tubes where you can’t see them of course. Also, the downdraft tubes have O rings that are very easily pinched and can also leak if that happens. You can remove them with the carbs still on the bike for inspection. Did you have to remove any of the electrical to get the carbs out? I know I always remove the transformer on the left side of the bike to do this job and that often the wires come away. Make sure that you have them positioned correctly. Each transformer runs two plugs so if you got them swapped at the transformer you’ve still got spark but the timing is incorrect and you’ve lost 2 cylinders.

[Bagger John - #3785]

I pulled the carb bank and have corrected my mistake with cyl 5, but 1 and 2 are still not contributing.

Tell us more about what you did to #5...

[srteach]

Hey, nogray. I'm in Twin Falls.
The coils never came out and the wiring to them has been checked. Since the #1 and #2 are both on the same coil, that was my thought as well.
The issue showed up before I removed the carb bank (before tank, airbox and carb bank were removed). I have checked the top tubes several times, and they are not the problem, but I will quad check them again. The engine speed does not change when I spray starter fluid around the base orings, so not the issue as well. I do appreciate the suggestions, it always helps to have someone double check your thinking.

Bagger John ...
You asked for the embarrassing, here it is .... when changing the slow jets back to 35s with the carbs in the bike, I totally removed the idle screw. I didn't lose any parts, but punched the oring into the fuel passage when reinstalling the screw. Found the issue on the bench and removed all the oring pieces (checked by reassembling them), replaced the oring and reassembled the slow circuit. #5 is no longer giving issues.

I will get to the compression and timing checks later today and post what I find.

[indybobm]

Have you sync'ed the carbs after they were reinstalled?

[srteach]

Have you sync'ed the carbs after they were reinstalled?

Yep. I used a digisync and all cylinders are within 1 or less.

[indybobm]

Does not sound like you have swapped the 1-2 coil with another. Might be something to try.

[9Ball]

I still think you have a problem with plugged jets.  The carb sync is done at idle, where the pilot jets control fuel.

Did you clean or replace the secondary and main jets or install new jets?  I’ve had mixed results with re-using cleaned jets, but I don’t have an ultrasonic cleaner.  Also, did you rebuild the carbs by separating the individual ones from the carb bank and replace fuel and air o-rings?  Did you test the air cut valves and replace these o-rings and short pieces of tubing for these valves?

It’s imperative to also clean all the orifices in the carb bodies after they are stripped down.

Just throwing out some thoughts.  Good luck...

[srteach]

Indy - I will swap coils to check.

9ball - This was not a full rebuild. Only changed slow jets. I used the 35 jets that I removed when I put the 38s in. Jets were clean when removed, and have been kept in a sealed bag.

Compression is within specs across all cylinders. Timing cannot be tested until I can get / rent a light. Funds are low right now.

[nogrey]

Just a couple of thoughts here. You say you replaced the ECM and that you have installed a 4 degree trigger wheel. Is there any chance that you installed an Interstate ECM? If so that would cause your advance to be 14 degrees which would seem to be quite a lot of advance. Could that cause the issue? Some say not.  Just throwing that out as a possible. I guess another thought would be the pulse generators. Did you move them to put the trigger wheel in and are they correctly positioned? This really sounds like an ignition problem to me, especially since you said you synced the carbs and they are all close. That should be an indication that vacuum is OK.
As far as timing goes, you should be able to verify it by looking at the marks inside the timing belt cover. Just turn the crankshaft CCW until the lines on the cam wheels line up to the marks and the cam is at tdc. If they all line up, timing should be OK.

[9Ball]

Indy - I will swap coils to check.

9ball - This was not a full rebuild. Only changed slow jets. I used the 35 jets that I removed when I put the 38s in. Jets were clean when removed, and have been kept in a sealed bag.

Compression is within specs across all cylinders. Timing cannot be tested until I can get / rent a light. Funds are low right now.

I still think you’re chasing the wrong issues...good luck with whatever you find.  Looking forward to the final fix.

[srteach]

ECT = Engine Coolant Temp sensor. My bike does not have an ECM. The ECT changes the timing, but only to a max of 10 degrees BTDC, and only when cold. The timing wheel has been in there for more than a year with no issues (that I am aware of). Thinking of putting stock trigger wheel back in.
The timing that I am talking about is spark timing and is checked with the engine running. You are correct that valve adjustment is based on those marks, but timing will vary based on other factors.
The pulse generators were never moved. They are at the factory positions.

Coil swap produced no changes. Still having problems with #1 and #2 cylinders.

In checking the manual, the compression, at 60PSI, is far below the minimum in all cylinders. I think I will borrow a different tester and retest. At that pressure, I shouldn't even have a running bike.

[nogrey]

I still think you have a problem with plugged jets.  The carb sync is done at idle, where the pilot jets control fuel.

Did you clean or replace the secondary and main jets or install new jets?  I’ve had mixed results with re-using cleaned jets, but I don’t have an ultrasonic cleaner.  Also, did you rebuild the carbs by separating the individual ones from the carb bank and replace fuel and air o-rings?  Did you test the air cut valves and replace these o-rings and short pieces of tubing for these valves?

It’s imperative to also clean all the orifices in the carb bodies after they are stripped down.

Just throwing out some thoughts.  Good luck...

None of these suggestions are bad. All good stuff. I always approach these problems with a “what’s easiest” first. Tearing into the carbs may have to happen as well. I’m interested in the answers to your questions regarding the jets and air-cuts as well. Been bitten by the air-cuts myself a few times. Usually, however, they just cause backfiring, not power loss. At least that’s been my experience.

[nogrey]

ECT = Engine Coolant Temp sensor. My bike does not have an ECM. The ECT changes the timing, but only to a max of 10 degrees BTDC, and only when cold. The timing wheel has been in there for more than a year with no issues (that I am aware of). Thinking of putting stock trigger wheel back in.
The timing that I am talking about is spark timing and is checked with the engine running. You are correct that valve adjustment is based on those marks, but timing will vary based on other factors.
The pulse generators were never moved. They are at the factory positions.

Coil swap produced no changes. Still having problems with #1 and #2 cylinders.

In checking the manual, the compression, at 60PSI, is far below the minimum in all cylinders. I think I will borrow a different tester and retest. At that pressure, I shouldn't even have a running bike.

OK, I somehow thought you were trying to say ICM, but some folks use the ECM terminology. Just misunderstood. This is an interesting issue. One other thought, and it’s easy to check, is to pop the tops off the carbs #1 & #5. Check the diaphragms for cracks or some other leak.

[Bagger John - #3785]

In checking the manual, the compression, at 60PSI, is far below the minimum in all cylinders. I think I will borrow a different tester and retest. At that pressure, I shouldn't even have a running bike.

I'd definitely do the bolded before doing anything else to the bike.

[srteach]

Thank you one and all for your help.

I will get another compression tester and retest. I will also pop the top of 1 and 2. I'm also thinking about pulling the slow jets and cleaning them (I have 2 ultrasonic cleaners and carb soak cleaner to use).

In the meantime, I just gotta step away from the issue for a few days. I'm getting frustrated and that doesn't help the thought processes.  I will return to this thread next Monday (next day off work) or earlier with updates.

[nogrey]

Thank you one and all for your help.

I will get another compression tester and retest. I will also pop the top of 1 and 2. I'm also thinking about pulling the slow jets and cleaning them (I have 2 ultrasonic cleaners and carb soak cleaner to use).

In the meantime, I just gotta step away from the issue for a few days. I'm getting frustrated and that doesn't help the thought processes. I will return to this thread next Monday (next day off work) or earlier with updates.

I totally understand. Sometimes I get my best ideas after just walking away for awhile. I’ll check back on Monday if my old brain can remember that far.  

[gordonv]

I was wondering about the easier method of carb cleaner? You've fuel in the carb (drain), spark at the plug, timing is good for the rest of the cylinders (but good to remove the timing belt cover and look).

There's also that method of the spray foam.

[srteach]

Bike reassembled and in running condition. New timing light and compression tester ordered. Considering full carb set rebuild. If I do a full carb set rebuild, I will do it one at a time and use the ultrasonics.
Alternately, I'm considering sending the bike to Bob at Attic Rat in OK for full GLH treatment (gotta find money).
Replaced the original timing wheel on the camshaft. I am now back to factory running stock, except for 105 mains. When I get this issue resolved, maybe retry some of the upgrades if I don't go the Attic Rat route.

I will continue trying to resolve the 2 dead cylinders.

[Paladin528]

ECT = Engine Coolant Temp sensor. My bike does not have an ECM. The ECT changes the timing, but only to a max of 10 degrees BTDC, and only when cold. The timing wheel has been in there for more than a year with no issues (that I am aware of). Thinking of putting stock trigger wheel back in.
The timing that I am talking about is spark timing and is checked with the engine running. You are correct that valve adjustment is based on those marks, but timing will vary based on other factors.
The pulse generators were never moved. They are at the factory positions.

Coil swap produced no changes. Still having problems with #1 and #2 cylinders.

In checking the manual, the compression, at 60PSI, is far below the minimum in all cylinders. I think I will borrow a different tester and retest. At that pressure, I shouldn't even have a running bike.

Make sure you test with WIDE OPEN THROTTLE.  60 indicates the throttle was closed.

[Cyclejohn]

all slow screws set to the factory recommended 2 1/4 turns out.

You may have already tried this but...............

Open your pilot screws to 4 or 5 turns out as the engine is idling and see if the affected cylinders start trying to kick in. If they do...at least you know it's in the slow circuit of the carbs.

Could also pull the tank and open the airbox lid and rig up an auxiliary fuel supply and spray starter fluid in the intake of the affected carb and see if the cylinders kick in.

[rug_burn]

So your carbs are synced vacuum- wise but are not all at the same mixture, at least at the low end.   That's the same problem I've been dealing with.   I let my bike sit too long one time, and the carbs got all screwed up. 
       I've checked the heat of my exhaust pipes with an IR thermometer (Harbor Freight-  cheap) and spark plug color to figure out which ones were lean.  (one guy here will tell you you can't do that with unleaded gas, but the plug electrode color agrees with the IR thermometer reading, so I'd have to disagree.)      The manual has a rather lengthy procedure which will probably work great,  but I just kind of used my method, and ended up enrichening the mixture screws on the right side, the first carbs to dry out when the bike sits, and finally I got it to run pretty good, although it does occasionally let me know that everything still ain't perfect.
     I think I should have cleaned all the passages in the carbs better when I had them off the last time.

[sandy]

"Carbs balanced and all slow screws set to the factory recommended 2 1/4 turns out."

Factory setting is 1 3/4 turns out on a 49 state standard. CA setting is 2 turns out.

This probably won't solve your issue, just correcting misinformation.

[srteach]

"Carbs balanced and all slow screws set to the factory recommended 2 1/4 turns out."

Factory setting is 1 3/4 turns out on a 49 state standard. CA setting is 2 turns out.

This probably won't solve your issue, just correcting misinformation.

The 2 1/4 turns are from the Honda Shop manual for a 49 states bike. Not saying you are wrong about the best place to run them, but that is the source.

Make sure you test with WIDE OPEN THROTTLE.  60 indicates the throttle was closed.

Indeed, they were at idle during testing. The tester, however would not hold any number like it should. It went to the 60psi mark, then drop rapidly.

I have a timing light and a compression tester in mid shipment. Should arrive Monday. I will test, then decide if i am going to do a full rebuild on the carb set or something else.

This is a great community. Thanks to all those who responded. I will keep everyone informed.

[98valk]

So your carbs are synced vacuum- wise but are not all at the same mixture, at least at the low end.   That's the same problem I've been dealing with.   I let my bike sit too long one time, and the carbs got all screwed up.  
       I've checked the heat of my exhaust pipes with an IR thermometer (Harbor Freight-  cheap) and spark plug color to figure out which ones were lean.  (one guy here will tell you you can't do that with unleaded gas, but the plug electrode color agrees with the IR thermometer reading, so I'd have to disagree.)      The manual has a rather lengthy procedure which will probably work great,  but I just kind of used my method, and ended up enrichening the mixture screws on the right side, the first carbs to dry out when the bike sits, and finally I got it to run pretty good, although it does occasionally let me know that everything still ain't perfect.
     I think I should have cleaned all the passages in the carbs better when I had them off the last time.

"Unleaded fuel and ethanol fuels like E85 make reading plugs a bit more difficult because they burn cleaner and leave fewer deposits on the plug. "
https://www.jetsrus.com/FAQs/FAQ_spark_plugs.htm

"The reformulated unleaded gasoline we have today has made reading spark plugs almost impossible because it leaves little or no color on the spark plug insulator."
https://www.enginebuildermag.com/2008/07/carburetor-tuning-the-airfuel-equation/

[Bagger John - #3785]

Factory setting is 1 3/4 turns out on a 49 state standard. CA setting is 2 turns out.

The above is true for a '97 model.

For everything else: 49-state setting is 2 1/4 turns out, and CA setting is 2 3/8 turns out.

Straight from the Honda service manual.

[srteach]

My reply delayed by working a few extra shifts ...  

The compression tester and timing light arrived and were used.
Timing is good. As stated, I did remove the +4* timing wheel. Stock is in place.
The cylinder pressures are (approx.)

• Cyl 1 = 143
• Cyl 2 = 150
• Cyl 3 = 143
• Cyl 4 = 145
• Cyl 5 = 150
• Cyl 6 = 145

All seems to be within spec and within range for compression.

I really don't want to rebuild, but parts have been ordered from Redeye for a carb set rebuild. I have a heated ultrasonic unit and carb cleaner soak for when parts gets here.

Thanks again to all the people who advised me. I will let everyone know the results.

[srteach]

Received the order from Redeye 2 days after ordering. Great service there.
I'm not sure what I expected in the rebuild kit, but WOW  . What a great kit. Less cost than Honda stock, better materials, and some tools for the work included.

Great kit.

Now to get to work after work ....

[Paladin528]

The Redeye kit is hands down the best kit you can get.  he thought of everything.

[srteach]

The Redeye kit is hands down the best kit you can get.  he thought of everything.

... and there's tools Honda didn't think of in there.

To recap, Took out the timing advance wheel, installed 105 stock idle jets back into carbs, as to cure no fire on cylinders 1 and 2.
Sad to say, I didn't even do that correct, screwed up carb 6. I found and fixed carb 6 issue (oring in the wrong place).
All diagnostics (and some members here) pointed to carb set rebuild.
Bought Redeye kit (Awesome kit). Each carb was disassembled and all hard parts given a 30 min 80*C ultrasonic bath in carb cleaner. Plastics and nylon parts got 30 min 80*C bath in soapy water, then 15 mins in clean water to remove soap. All parts were sprayed with spray carb cleaner afterward. All parts were shiny.
Damn, those carbs were dirty. Some (1,2,4 and 6) were missing gaskets or orings and some (1 and 3) had open ports. Stretched, cut or out of place orings were the norm across the entire carb set. Someone was here before me  .

Carbs back in with bike together, set idle, balance carbs, and She lives!!!!
The bike is smooth running on all cylinders. Still need to set base idle on, though.

Thank you to all who offered tips and suggestions, they were really appreciated. I did not ignore any suggestions even if it seemed like it. Thank you.

Again, a massive shout out to Redeye for the time he took to hunt down all the parts he put in that kit.