Prophet Profit...

[DDT (12)]

I read articles now and then about the value of higher education… Is a college degree worth what it used to be, or is it even worthwhile at all nowadays…? The cost of that sort of pursuit has definitely been rising in real terms, but also in terms of ‘relative’ cost when compared to other uses of wherewithal, especially when compared to ‘value’ in the past. Naturally these comparisons usually involve rankings of which degree or other might be most ‘rewarding’ in terms of future earnings… not much is ever said about personal satisfaction, though…

It is scandalous how a poor innocent student, a victim of predatory lending practices by unscrupulous corporations, has to run up a student loan tab of $70K or more at a prestigious university in pursuit of a degree, only to be forced to drop out before actual completion, while trying desperately to achieve a certificate that confirms they’ve studied Tibetan Literature or music appreciation in hopes of 'finding themselves' and achieving self fulfilment. A sensible solution can only be debt forgiveness, of course… which is really a clever way of saying let everybody pay for that boon-doggle instead of that 'poor victim' having to face the consequences of his/her own choices.

Value is a relative measurement, actually, and it can have very different meanings to different folks. If I were to select a simple cost/benefit analysis that compared future earnings and job security to dollar costs in today’s terms only, though… I’d have to say one career choice stands out well above all others… ‘Prophet of doom’…

Yep, those seem to be far and away the greatest in demand and practitioners the most ‘listened to’ of all. From the world ending soon, to the imminent collapse of IT systems worldwide, to recession crippling our economy any day now, to the likelihood of nukes being launched from some obscure location in some third-world country, to climate change causing the flooding of our major cities in the next couple of years, to… pick one… “If we don’t do so and so, or if we ignore this or that, or if… if…” the sky will fall, and life as we’ve known it will end… and in some awful way, too.

These people dominate our news broadcasts; indeed, many of the on-camera news personalities themselves are members of this ‘special calling’. Our politics certainly have these notable types within those ranks, and more often than not they are the very ones who rise to the top… Indeed, outrageous ‘solutions’ to unthinkable challenges are the very means by which aspirants gain attention and display ‘leadership’ and ‘genuine concern’, vision and the right stuff that absolutely require their selection for office.  Nope, I cannot think of a single choice with higher expectation of life-long success… nor greater potential return on 'educational investment'…

DDT

[hubcapsc]

Is a college degree worth what it used to be, or is it even worthwhile at all nowadays

If you major in chemical engineering, yes, if you major in sociology, not so much...

-Mike

[The emperor has no clothes]

  I have few regrets in my life. One is that I didn’t go to college.

Hmm...”prophet of doom”. I think you are on to something there. I will start steering my grandson towards that versus an engineering degree. (Would an associates suffice, or does one need the masters)

[Skinhead]

I have few regrets in my life. One is that I didn’t go to college.

Hmm...”prophet of doom”. I think you are on to something there. I will start steering my grandson towards that versus an engineering degree. (Would an associates suffice, or does one need the masters)

Well, if you're going to run up debt, you might as well do it right, and go for the PhD (Piled higher and Deeper).  

And before Carl gets on you, you forgot a question mark.

[The emperor has no clothes]

I have few regrets in my life. One is that I didn’t go to college.

Hmm...”prophet of doom”. I think you are on to something there. I will start steering my grandson towards that versus an engineering degree. (Would an associates suffice, or does one need the masters)

Well, if you're going to run up debt, you might as well do it right, and go for the PhD (Piled higher and Deeper).  

And before Carl gets on you, you forgot a question mark.

(I like to throw out little scraps every once in a while) 

[baldo]

I have few regrets in my life. One is that I didn’t go to college.

Hmm...”prophet of doom”. I think you are on to something there. I will start steering my grandson towards that versus an engineering degree. (Would an associates suffice, or does one need the masters)

Well, if you're going to run up debt, you might as well do it right, and go for the PhD (Piled higher and Deeper).  

And before Carl gets on you, you forgot a question mark.

(I like to throw out little scraps every once in a while) 

It's the least you can do.....

[f6john]

If I had a do over I would choose to go to college. I know nothing of the college experience which seems to be so important to many. At 17, I just didn’t know what I wanted to do and couldn’t see continuing “school” with no particular goal in mind. Vietnam was still raging and I wasn’t interested in a college deferment so life took over with jobs, draft notice and marriage.

Now I wish I had gone into engineering with a course set for working for one of the big 3 automakers. I don’t know how the guidance counselors in schools across the nation interact with students but mine was dismal at best. High School students need a lot of encouragement and they need options presented to them they may have not even considered. We need trade schools reinstated for those who love working with their hands as well as their minds.

[The emperor has no clothes]

I have few regrets in my life. One is that I didn’t go to college.

Hmm...”prophet of doom”. I think you are on to something there. I will start steering my grandson towards that versus an engineering degree. (Would an associates suffice, or does one need the masters)

Well, if you're going to run up debt, you might as well do it right, and go for the PhD (Piled higher and Deeper).  

And before Carl gets on you, you forgot a question mark.

(I like to throw out little scraps every once in a while) 

It's the least you can do.....

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Odl651baQGA

[The emperor has no clothes]

Sorry for the hijack Bruce 

[Robert]

College is a tool just like any other, school, degree, money, possessions. They are great to have if they fit into your goal or even direction for life but when you love them more than have confidence and direction in yourself you are lost.

 Kids today are told go to college yet forget that even working in the mall doing a good job in retail will get you a managers position. Many forget technical training also can lead you to a good carer and today you are getting hard pressed to find anyone qualified. Starting in these fields can lead you to anywhere you can aspire to without college and without debt. Since many kids are not college material and really, is the cookie cutter life going to make everyone happy?

 It used to be go to college get a great job and stay in that for the rest of your life and retire, fat and sassy. I have not seen that happen to many people, since most of the time life changes and deals blows we did not expect. Companies, promotions and people come and go and you are left dealing with situations that you never anticipated.

I agree with the OP that college debt is a bondage for many that many did not have to take on. Now with the goverment so far behind on collecting, and them turning to private collection agencies to claw back some of the money, its about as close to a debtors prision as could be. Since everthing today is based on credit scores, credit history and the fact that your information is easily available. Even in job hunting its considered in most positions today so we have effectivly put many under a thumb of failiuer unless they are very creative and motivated.

Steve Jobs, Bill Gates and Mark Zuckerberg became highly successful without college degrees. They dropped out of school and started their own companies: Apple, Microsoft and Facebook. While they are some of the most famous to reach the highest levels of success without a degree, they are far from alone.

https://money.com/15-super-successful-people-who-never-graduated-college/

There is a a@@ for every seat though with all this said, life is so different for each one of us. So for some college is the only way to start and go through life with, but I dont think it should be sold to our children as the only way. The choice is hard when you dont have a crystal ball to tell you which way life is going. Then to take on huge debt is such a bondage and saddle yourself with debt before you get started. One more thing to struggle with in trying to make a life for yourself.

[Bigwolf]

Bruce,
That was a very depressing thing to read this morning before I even had my breakfast. 
True, but very depressing.  Lately I have been thinking a lot about world affairs and the human condition.  I was depressed already.  I need to pack my bike and head for the mountains!

[Jess from VA]

College today seems like a systemic and multifaceted problem.  

I paid $300 a semester at a good (but unspectacular) state university.  I had to take the same first two years of core curriculum everyone else did, and most of it was OK and a good idea, but some of those courses were pure bullsh!t (like sociology and psychology).  

Something I had learned even before college was that regardless of the course, if you ever get lucky enough to get gifted teachers who can inspire you to learn and study and think, you are very lucky.  Those kind of teachers are a gift from heaven, and unfortunately few and far between.  It took me many years to realize that probably my 1st through 6th elementary teachers (all very experienced old ladies) were all gifted.  They used the carrot and the hammer equally well and made young wild humans into thinking and respectful and inquisitive humans.

I think it was also very, very good for me that both my parents were also college graduates who both had to struggle and work hard (and live in poverty) to acquire their degrees.  It took dad a hitch in the Marines, and the GI bill, and a wife and kids, and 10 years to get his degree (engineer).  Both my parents always stressed good education and hard work and both were excellent tutors.  So I always got good grades, but they never leaned on me for good grades, only for an honest effort.  They were also very good at the carrot and the hammer, mostly the carrot and making them proud of me was always it's own reward.  

Dad started at the bottom and worked his way up the ladder to the top of his profession.  When he retired after 33 years with National Steel corporation, they learned he had spent two years working track labor in one of their oldest mills, so they added two years to his retirement check.  I missed his retirement party (USAF), but some 300 people attended and honored him and his good service. Back in his college days, he had to drop out because he could not afford the $50 for another semester of tuition.  He joined the Marines because he didn't want to be drafted into the Army and instantly be sent to Korea, and for the GI bill.  He made SSgt in 3 years (with his half an engineering degree, doing engineering work) and the Corps wanted him to go to OCS badly, but he wanted that degree and got out and went back to school.  

Somewhere along the line, universities and colleges became big business, but like government, they never had to earn their own way, but live largely on the back of taxpayers.  Thus they seem to have irrevocably become part of creeping American socialism.  And sure enough, that socialism has creeped into the curriculum, and minds of teachers and administrators, top to bottom.  

Universities themselves have funded some of leading litigation, all the way to the Supreme Court, of forcing/squeezing socialist ideology out of our constitution (like EEO, which squeezed me out of my chosen law school, because my white guy Magna Cum Laude 3.8 GPA wasn't good enough to get in after all the minorities with far inferior performance had to be let in) (that very law school had funded the litigation supporting that EEO ideology to the Supreme Court).

I only had one avowed socialist in college, predictably in sociology, and if you didn't buy into his interpretation of right and wrong, you could fail his course (and he made you spew it back to him in class participation, tests and term papers).  I bet the chances of more college teachers like him today is pretty high.

Of course prices on everything always go up (the only thing that seems to go down is consumer electronics), but if the price of college has gone up 50 times, I'm pretty sure the quality of the education has not gone up 50 times. In fact, I'm pretty sure it hasn't gone up at all.  Saddling a student with debt almost big enough to buy a house (or a half a house) for a college diploma is not right.  

I only ended up with a debt of $5k, and that was certainly worth it, but it is instructive that my 5 year younger brother, who was never a good student, flourished in the trades after HS, and by the time I got out of colleges (2), he already owned his own home, and I owned nothing.

I had reasonable success, with some notable failures and setbacks, in my post college driven career, and looking back on it all, I don't think I would do it again.  My plumber makes more in a half day at my house, than I ever made in a half day in my whole career.  Although higher education should never be only about money, but money should be a healthy percentage of pursuing any college diploma.  Unless you have found a way to live without money at all, in which case, you should consider starting your own college.  

 

[Alberta Patriot]

Is the value of a degree the most important question? I think more important is the content of what is being taught...that is the real question!!
Since the early 50's and probably sooner, there has been a concerted effort by marxists to hire only those who share their Dogma/Ideology at institutions that shape our children's minds...globally!!
Ivy League institutions will reward you handsomely if, as an outspoken Socialist(Markist), you show the ability to stand at a podium and skillfully "school" a room full of young impressionable minds towards THE CHOSEN DOGMA in the humanities...successfully I might add.. The result, a generation of ideological socialist SJW snowflakes and the club wielding Antifa Thugs who make sure the conservative narrative never graces the halls of "higher" learning. Next step, the STEM fields of education...bastardize  and undermine that as well. Most of us have come to understand that Climate Change is just bastardized politics...not the scientific principle we grew up with.
I believe these people were content with shaping culture from the bottom up, but I think that has changed recently. Efforts have been Ramped Up Dramatically as common everyday folks have been turning towards populism by saying no at the polls to socialist parties. Just look at Britain, Brazil, the movement towards populism in Hungary, Poland, recently the overturn of the corrupt socialist government in Ukraine....etc...etc. French Citizens have had enough of carbon taxation to "save the world", The yellow vest uprising is well over a year on now with no end in sight.
Just look at the failing socialist abomination that the Democrat Party has turned into. They know they will not win the next election...thus...a full on attempt to use the CIA/FBI/Justice Department to take down President Trump in a Deep State Coup. They even used foreign proxies in Australia, Britain, Italy and Ukraine. The thinking now IMHO..."The Hell With Doing This From the Bottom Up, lets just go for broke and do it from the TOP DOWN. If the socialists in your country succeed in ridding you of the Electoral College...New York, Chicago, DC,  San Francisco and LA is all the Democrats need to ensure that Rebublicans will never win another election. Once Middle America comes to grips with that, I believe you will see all hell break loose...IMHO.

 

[..]

Who lends most money to students?

Who is running on loan forgiveness?

Where's the logic in lending to forgive?

Vote buying?

[0leman]

I went to college in the middle/late 60's.   I had a goal to get a degree in Forest Management.  Something I was interested in and there were jobs out there in the real world.  Of course having a scholarship helped me get thru with Money in the bank.  No debt.  My wife who didn't finished college (something I regret her not doing) came with college debt when we got married.   After a really good fire season two month after we tied the knot, her debt was paid off.  

Do I believe all should go to college and create a large debt.  NO.  Depends on the individual, some find it better to work with their hands and some their brains.   Some are suited to sit in an office some are not.  Thankfully we are not all the same mind set.  There are "Tech" jobs out there that pay way more per hour than a office job. Jobs like plumbers, electricians, auto mechanics, etc.. Maybe some if not all could/should take a couple years at a community college to get some of the basics that they didn't get in high school.  Then make a decision on going on to a 4 year degree or getting a job that doesn't require a 4 year degree.  We have some really good community colleges around here that actually have some good tech type classes.  Classes that would help one to get a good paying job.

[old2soon]

        Good thing youngest Daughter had lotsa financial help-scholarships-when she attended college for 2 years. I was already retired when she decided to go. Far as ME footin the freight for others to go-no thanks. Far too many folks these days EXPECT others to pay Their freight. I should have and could have used my G I bill but I didn't. If I have a regret I will NOT make it public here. Dad always said you could see where the furrow was messed up after you plowed. RIDE SAFE.

[Alberta Patriot]

I understand it was the state of the economy and the meteoric rise in real estate value when I was in my twenties, but while my friends were on their way to graduate degrees in "whatever", I got after it straight out of high school and had a mortgage free home by the time I was 30. The naval gazing SJW graduates of today will surly be a debt ridden tragedy, left in the dust by their business minded friends. Make no mistake, there are large numbers of millennials who were either carefully coached(parents) or never bought into the socialist crap and they will be paying off the debts of the post graduate barista jockeys.

[Rams]

Do I believe all should go to college and create a large debt.  NO.  Depends on the individual, some find it better to work with their hands and some their brains.   Some are suited to sit in an office some are not.  Thankfully we are not all the same mind set.  There are "Tech" jobs out there that pay way more per hour than a office job. Jobs like plumbers, electricians, auto mechanics, etc.. Maybe some if not all could/should take a couple years at a community college to get some of the basics that they didn't get in high school.  Then make a decision on going on to a 4 year degree or getting a job that doesn't require a 4 year degree.  We have some really good community colleges around here that actually have some good tech type classes.  Classes that would help one to get a good paying job.

True Statement.

I have a degree, I know I would not have gotten in life where I got to or have had certain opportunities without that degree but, I will also say that a college degree is only a ticket to get on the Merry Go Round.   It's what you do with that degree that matters most.  

Since college, I have worked in careers that required higher education and some that didn't.   IMHO, doesn't matter what you do if, you like it and do your best.   If it takes a degree to do what you want to do, it's probably worth it.  Those things matter.  

Is a college degree worth the cost, that depends on what you do with it.

Rams

[Oss]

Interesting post Bruce.

I can safely say that running a business is NOT something that is taught in law school.  Just as many restaurants close within a year so it is true that many businesses fail for so many reasons including lack of a good business plan and lack of capital.    Starting out with 100k or more of debt is not a good business plan for most.

There is nothing wrong with taking a few community college courses at night while
testing the waters toward one career or another.

 Dad did both college and law school at night while working full time after his stint in the Navy. When he slept is anyones guess but Mom says he could sleep standing up on the subway.

I do  wish trade school skills were taught in High School so that people could see if they have interest or aptitude in areas.

[carolinarider09]

I apologize in advance for the long post.

I went to college for three years after I got out of high school.  Was majoring in Electrical Engineering ( like playing with radios).  After the second semester I changed to Forestry (what my dad did for a living).  I just did not try hard enough and dropped out in 1967.   My parents did pay for my college, back then about $600 a semester (If I remember right).  

The draft was on-going at the time and I worked in forestry for the summer.  In December of 1967 I signed up for the US Navy, designated to be an Electronics Technician and then on to submarines.  

I spent one year on the USS Wasp (got to see many ports in Europe which I would not have seen otherwise), got lots of life lessons, before I got married and went to Nuclear Power and then Submarine school.  I was assigned to the UUS Patrick Henry as a Reactor Operator.  

After six years I separated (my term of enlistment was up) and got offered a job in nuclear power in Florida.  I stayed in commercial nuclear power for 40 plus years, got licensed as an Senior Reactor Operator on two different power plants.  

I got an associates degree while attending night school in Michigan, tired to get a BS degree in Computer Science in SC, but they would not teach the junior and senior courses at night even though we approached the department head and guaranteed the needed class size, so having enough "credits" I got a BA degree.  Then several years later, went to get a Masters in Business Administration degree (night school).

Two things, the most important part was life experience and the technical training I got in the Navy.  

The add on degrees I got where just that, getting my ticket punched so I could, if I wished, move into other areas in the company's I worked with.  

The degrees I had were never really part of my qualifications.  When I was considered for a higher position, it was my experience that was most important.  

If I had it to do over again, then only thing I might have done differently was to try and limit the money my parents had to spend on my "try" at college.  

Sometimes we are not old enough to understand life.  We are told to get a degree because.....  never given a good reason.  

Yes, if you want to be an engineer of some sort you will need a degree.  But, look around and see which engineers are really good.  Probably  those with more technical experience, not the most "schooling".  

[Valkorado]

Really insightful observations, Bruce, and I couldn't agree more.  I worked for many years in labor and employment, from a family owned temp agency to a stint as a WIA counselor with the state department of L&E.  While the latter did require my B.A., the training I arranged was trade oriented.  I could not work with applicants toward traditional college degrees, and I was very happy about that stipulation.  Having graduated from a liberal arts college, I was very disillusioned by the "liberal" side of things, and agree with Hubcap that college may be a good thing if a degree in "hard" sciences is the goal, perhaps to pursue a medical or engineering career.  It was satisfying to help steer many low income clients toward lucrative careers. The training was typically short, and the folks usually came out debt free and directly into great, sometimes even enviable jobs.  While many came to me with an idea in mind, I worked with others to find and/or spark interests.  One young lady in particular comes to mind.  She was living in a resort town, tending bar and skiing.  It was getting old, and she really didn't see a way out.  We talked about how she enjoyed running lights at the bar for bands that came to play, which was something she'd been trained to do by another employee.  I discovered her love for music and working around musicians and after doing some research suggested sound engineering.  Long story short, I was able to arrange the funding for her to attend probably the best such school in the nation.  She graduated and landed a job in the Big Easy and would send cards telling of all the big name bands she was running the boards for, some really impressive names.  She was raking it in and approaching six figures within a year!  There were many other stories ranging from helping arrange funding and training for police officers, truck drivers, carpenters, chefs and so many other trades.  All I know is as tough as it has been to find quality plumbers lately there is room for more of those too!

[0leman]

As noted above the lack of "trade" classes in High school.  I was happy to see both here in our basin and over the hill in Medford valley, more high schools are offering classes in the "trades". 

Maybe the is a light at the end of the tunnel.

[old2soon]

As noted above the lack of "trade" classes in High school.  I was happy to see both here in our basin and over the hill in Medford valley, more high schools are offering classes in the "trades". 

Maybe the is a light at the end of the tunnel.

              With out The Trades NOTHING gets repaired to extend the life of already overpriced "stuff". I learned before I went in the Navy the value of maintenance. Dad instilled it in all of us. The FACT most of us are Still on Valkyries speaks well of maintenance. Wasn't a day went by in high school what the wood shop and metal shop wasn't building something. Learned the basics of gas and electric arc welding and cutting. Brazing and soldering too. And Most importantly-Which END of the wrench to hang onto!  RIDE SAFE.

[Jess from VA]

During law school, I clerked (part time) for three different law firms.  The money was barely enough to cover the travel, parking and lunches (and a jacket and tie), but you don't do it for money, but for experience (of the real world).  You learn some substance, but also a lot about how to run a firm, a business, deal with clients (and prepare witnesses), court filing pleadings to move things along, create and diary files, negotiate settlements, how important good legal secretaries are (real important), and a hundred other things.  

After this experience, I raised an objection to my law school that there were almost no courses offered teaching how to actually make a living being a lawyer (either the practice or the business).  I got told to shut up, that they didn't do that as it was beneath them.  Truth is, almost no professors had ever been in practice (private or government) and they didn't know how to make a living outside the school.

Sure enough, after two degrees and a bar exam, I still didn't know how to make a living at it (very well).  

Then you go to job interviews, and all they want to talk about is your past experience.

Well, I spent many years sitting in classrooms.  I'm really good at that.      

  

[MarkT]

Good points, Jess.  As I once said to my Dad, "Those who can't do, teach."  He didn't much appreciate that but it's true.  He was a professor of Ecumenical Theology in a seminary.  With two PhD's.  A proud Communist, he even subscribed to the far left's "Soviet Life" so the postman and God and His brother knew his lefty politics.  Such that I was intensively investigated by the OSI thx to his activities, as the USAF was sending me into nuclear weapons.  He was an extreme liberal and proud of it - which I referred to as "the 'L' word."  Embarrassing for me, while family is and should be the most important for us all.  Actually my entire family is WAY left.  And it figures given their raising and their careers - all dependant on liberal governance, with their hats in hand to live on OPM. (Other People's Money)  I admit I was once a registered democrat from this indoctrinating.  Until I woke up while in the service.  Now as others have said, school at nearly all levels is liberal brainwashing of our impressionable youth.  They come out as SJW's who may or may not wake up to the real world.  As well expressed above I don't think college is necessarily the best path to a good life and career - especially with the artificially high cost and useless (for income) majors some choose.  My education was MUCH less expensive at a state University (U.W.)  And was accomplished with the G.I. Bill.  I finished with virtually no debt with a BS in Applied Computer Science.  Which I employed until I changed careers to work for myself in a completely unrelated field 20 years ago.

[Alberta Patriot]

During law school, I clerked (part time) for three different law firms.  The money was barely enough to cover the travel, parking and lunches (and a jacket and tie), but you don't do it for money, but for experience (of the real world).  You learn some substance, but also a lot about how to run a firm, a business, deal with clients (and prepare witnesses), court filing pleadings to move things along, create and diary files, negotiate settlements, how important good legal secretaries are (real important), and a hundred other things.  

After this experience, I raised an objection to my law school that there were almost no courses offered teaching how to actually make a living being a lawyer (either the practice or the business).  I got told to shut up, that they didn't do that as it was beneath them.  Truth is, almost no professors had ever been in practice (private or government) and they didn't know how to make a living outside the school.

Sure enough, after two degrees and a bar exam, I still didn't know how to make a living at it (very well).  

Then you go to job interviews, and all they want to talk about is your past experience.

Well, I spent many years sitting in classrooms.  I'm really good at that.      

  

The only lawyers that I have come in contact with are either regarding the purchase or sale of real estate, or setting up mine or my grown boys wills so the government could not access our earned assets. I have not crossed paths with the kind that chase ambulances or the failed ones who become politicians.

[Jess from VA]

The only lawyers that I have come in contact with are either regarding the purchase or sale of real estate, or setting up mine or my grown boys wills so the government could not access our earned assets. I have not crossed paths with the kind that chase ambulances or the failed ones who become politicians.

You sound like my dad, who told me while I was in school..... I don't know any lawyers, and I'm pretty proud of the fact I've never needed one.  His theory was that if you needed a lawyer, you had broken the law, or screwed up badly (causing your own stupid trouble).  He also told me I should do something useful with my life, like become an engineer like he was (and that if I had, he would have had contacts for me for jobs all over the country).

The truth is, many lawyers you might need are probably because you did screw up, but some you might need just to give you good advice (like copyrights and patents, real estate, tax, business, corporations, and estate planning).

The entertaining thing was that many years later, I was able to help my dad out with several complicated problems he had to deal with in a way that solved those problems and caused the other side of his problems to back off and shut up and leave him alone.  I was very pleased to to be able to help him out (as he had helped me out all my life in many ways) (and my fee was always a beer or two).

I never needed a lawyer to buy a house, but I did need a good title company and home inspectors.  And I did my own wills (and maybe a thousand others) (but not complex trusts).  I did hire a good VA lawyer to lay out my 17 page property settlement agreement with my spouse, because I was never licensed in VA, and had not done any domestic relations work for 25 years.  And I once had a buddy (lawyer) go to bat for me in local VA traffic court where I wouldn't have needed him except the local county prosecutors would not deal with anyone not licensed in VA.  He didn't want any money, but I paid him anyway.

It's one thing to help friends out, but I always lived by the code that if you got a favor from a buddy doing what he did for a livelihood to feed his family, you should always pay for the service.  If he had helped me change the oil on my car I wouldn't have paid him since he wasn't a mechanic.  I had a good friend who was a master plumber/gas fitter and he worked on stuff at my house several times, and I always paid him over his objections.  Sadly, he moved away and the prices have gone way up.  I have helped many people with legal issues all my life for nothing but thanks, and glad to do it.  But if they need actual representation, that's a different story. 

I never hung with any personal injury or tort lawyers (or did any of that work), but I did do some insurance defense work, and prepared tort claims against the Air Force (that couldn't be settled within my limits) for US Attorneys to defend against tort lawyers.

And it's true that a significant percentage of politicians at all levels are lawyers (or have law degrees, if not actually licensed to practice anywhere).  That's really unfortunate, as it's not like we didn't already have bad enough general reputations, without being politicians too.  

[F6Dave]

What I remember most about a Shakespeare course I took in college was the first thing the professor said.  'This class is not designed to put food on your table' he warned!  If colleges were that honest today, less students would take on enormous debt to get a degree of little value.

I began saving for college immediately after our twins were born, and as a result both were able to graduate without debt.  These days that's a pretty good graduation gift.  My son got an engineering degree, and could have paid off college loans if he needed to.  But my daughter made a less profitable career choice, and college debt would have been financially devastating for her.  I'm amazed how many students take on college debt without questioning the value of the degree they're financing.  Do they realize that much debt could prevent them from qualifying for a mortgage or financing a car?

Last week I got an email with a logical solution to the problem.  Essentially it proposes rolling back the Obamacare takeover of student loans, and structure them more like other consumer loans.  Here's a summary:

Our educational industrial complex is broken, and swift reform is needed. College costs continue to rise much faster than inflation, and too many students are plowing themselves into debt and wasting years of their lives pursuing pointless degrees. Upon leaving college, these students are often surprised to discover that their degrees have little value. Of course, most colleges are liberal indoctrination centers, where conservative voices are few and often drowned out. It is time for the federal government – and state and local governments – to stop picking winners and losers. To begin to address these problems, the federal government should do four things: privatize student loans once again, sell off its portfolio of student debt, allow students to discharge college debt in bankruptcy, tie lending rules to the value of a degree and require colleges to repay half of the remaining value of discharged loans.

The full article is linked here:   http://dailytorch.com/2020/01/our-educational-industrial-complex-is-broken-time-to-reform-higher-education-and-student-loans/