Straight rate or progressive springs? Which would you get?

[CoreyP]

Thinking about putting new spring on my bike. I assume the ones on there now are OEM. This is only the second cruiser I have owned so I really don't know what good forks feel like on one of these bikes but I do know I don't like the feel of what I have. I started riding in the late 70's so I do know what many bikes feel like but never anything in this class of bike. By far this is the heaviest bike I have ever had.

Problem I have is a lot of dive when I hit the brakes hard, I don't like that. I'm also getting small bumps giving me constant feed back through the handle bars. I've put on new tires and rear shocks over the last 4 months or so. Back shocks are noticeably better. At high speeds the front forks feel pretty good but it's more around 30-50 MPH that I don't like the feel of the forks. Springs aren't expensive so I think I will change those sometime.

I'm wondering what you guys have experienced with spring replacement?  In general I'm hard on the throttle and hard on the brakes, I'm not a guy who just cruises around in a mellow state. Some times I am but given the chance I ride pretty hard. I ride two up probably 75% of the time so I'm running around 320 pounds of weight two up. I also live in a rural area, it doesn't take long before I'm on a 2 lane 55 MPH road that hasn't seen new pavement in 30 years. It's gets a little rough out there. Even I-95 near me is crap.

I know progressives should work but I tend to be a fan of straight rate springs on other bikes I have had. Not sure where I'm going with this so I'll ask some questions.

[Jess from VA]

My two interstates have had both OE and Progressive springs.

I never frankly felt there was all that much difference between them (but some do).  Although the new springs went in during fork rebuilds/new fluid, and that was clearly an improvement.

What was needed was a flush and new fluid and wear part replacement (and if too much fluid goes in on the rebuild the result is a terribly hard front suspension (worse than a soft suspension); and IMHO, going with 1-1 1/2 oz less than called for 10 wt in the shocks on rebuild is the way to go, with all other new parts).

I like to ride hard too, and I like a sporty tight suspension (not a Cadillac suspension), but you do not want too much fluid, like happened to me (from a dealer).  The bike rode like it had no springs at all, just steel spacers.

New OE springs (interstate).  But you need to check if tourer/standard springs are the same part number (spring rates?).  https://www.procaliber.com/oem-parts?aribrand=HOM&arian=MOTORCYCLE#/Honda_Powersports/GL1500CFA_(99)_VALKYRIE_INTERSTATE%2c_USA%2c_VIN%23_1HFSC410-XA000001/FRONT_FORK/61347acc-638e-40e4-aa4f-0fceb839ab88/785c111a-7851-4fb6-9c5a-81cea17b3927/y



 

[Gryphon Rider]

I am unaware of non-progressive (straight rate) springs being available for Valkyries.  I haven't really looked, but I've read a lot of threads on this message board since I got my Valkyrie in 2001.  The OEM springs are progressive-rate springs, although I don't think the rate of increase in spring rate is as steep as with Progressive brand springs.  One thing that is relatively easy to do is adjust the oil level within the forks.  First of all, a previous owner of your bike might have replaced seals and not put the proper amount of oil in them.  Unfortunately, to get the oil level to factory spec, you need to either completely drain the oil out of your forks, then carefully measure and add the proper amount of oil to each side, or pull out the springs and add or subtract oil to get the right measurements down from the top of the fork tube to the oil level.  Both of these methods are quite involved, but as an alternative, you could add a quarter ounce of fluid to each side until you like the effective spring rate.

[h13man]

When I first got my Valk I was going to install Progressives as they worked very well on my 1100 Spirit. A fellow member on HSN always was dead set on single rate springs as being a better alternative. After about 30,000 mi. on my Spirit riding 80% of the mileage two up, the Progressive's were starting to show signs of getting soft. Fast forward to my Valk, I was ready to do the Progressives and stumbled on a fellow member here who had set of Racetech #90 single rate springs that he didn't like as he thought they were too stiff. I took a chance and purchased them from him. These are the lowest rate available BTW. They were a little stiff @ 1st but they broke in after about 500 mi. 28,000 mi. on them to date and really like them very much with me @ 165 lbs. and 450 lbs.+ loaded for trips (momma included). I always run Belray 10w fork oil. No excess diving under braking but smooth to the road.

https://racetech.com/ProductSearch/12/Honda/GL1500C%20Valkyrie/1997-2001

[hubcapsc]

I only have experience with Progressive (brand) springs. I put
them in shortly after I got my bike 75,000 miles ago. I rebuilt
my forks again a thousand or so miles ago. My opinion is that
you shouldn't look for a short cut when replacing the springs.
Tear your forks down to their individual parts, and rebuild
them with all new wear parts following the instructions in
the OEM service manual. Don't skip the part where you
"burp" the cartridge. I love the action of my forks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tikm2dBQ56I

-Mike

[..]

If doing the front swap yourself this may help

https://postimg.cc/gallery/7ZQt2pj


The following is from my memory - not always 100%

Cover tank etc with towels/rags

Bike on lift front wheel high enough to get a small jack under
Undo pinch bolts at fork caps
Loosen fork caps until completely unthreaded
Raise front wheel so forks compress completely

Remove right front fork cap. Have to try and grip the flat sided-round sided nut under the right fork cap. 
Can't use a wrench cause there are a couple of small flange parts sticking out. Hold this in place and undo fork cap.
Count threads exposed
Undo flat sided-round sided nut about half way up the threaded portion
Thread bolt you have found in your workshop into hole
Make sure it's a good fit
Remove and wrap a coat hanger around it
Screw back in
Using a flat bladed screwdriver prise the flat sided-round sided nut away from the tube below to remove collar
Remove collar that has a slot
Slide the shiny bit up over your bolt and coat hanger

Let front wheel jack down

Now use another coat hanger with a slight hook on the end and fish down in the fork tube and remove the spring. SLOWLY to let the oil drain off. This is why you covered up in the beginning with towels/rags
Slide new spring back over

Raise front wheel back up

Slide shiny bit back over wire and bolt
Replace collar
Remove bolt you have found in your workshop and turn flat sided-round sided nut down until you get to the amount of threads you counted earlier

Left fork

Insert special tool and undo completely remove
Hook out fork spring SLOWLY to let oil drain off. Washer comes with it.
Insert new spring AND then washer
Now using special tool screw part back on.
Needs 2 people cause you are pushing against the spring

Lower front wheel

Wait a couple of minutes for oil to drain down inside tube and then measure from top of fork tube. I did it with a bit of wood dowel as a dipstick. Adjust oil level as needed

Screw on fork caps. Tighten pinch bolts. Bounce forks a couple of times

Go for a short SLOW ride and test forks.

If OK drink beer.

If not OK I can't be held responsible

[Bagger John - #3785]

I have a set of Hyperpro springs in my Tourer (w/ OEM Tourer damper assembly) and used a little less than the recommended level of 10wt fork oil - maybe half an ounce or so less per leg. FWIW, this bike has an I/S tank, trunk and a Memphis Shades Batwing, spotlight bar plus other electrical gear which brings it to roughly the same weight as a stock I/S.

Compared to the ride of my stock I/S's forks (both bikes have roughly the same mileage on them) the Hyperpro setup seems more taut but just as compliant over road irregularities. I prefer the ride, especially when carrying a passenger.

For a solo bike without bags I'd look at using 5 or 7.5wt oil, and as others have pointed out: Replace all seals, bushings and other wear items while you have the forks apart.

[MarkT]

I just finished a rebuild of my forks, with all new wear parts, Bel-Ray 10wt, new Progressive springs, VTXtreme 4° triple trees, and polished all the aluminum parts and light mounts.  Used the Honda shop manual, the Clymer shop manual, and Wood Butcher's tech file on the seal replacement over at Southern Valkyrie Riders FB page.  ( linked at https://www.facebook.com/groups/642576109419780/files/ )  BTW there's an error in the sequence on the assembly, right side insert the spring collar AFTER the oil and the spring, not before - do it in the sequence listed and you'll be draining the oil back out, taking the collar back out and doing it later.  I haven't told him of this correction; he has bigger family issues right now.  Also it's really good to have a couple manuals for reference; I needed them both to get a good understanding.  This is an involved job.

OK so what I concluded is, the Progressive springs deliver a more harsh ride than the OEMs.  Which I had the dealer install on Deerslayer almost 20 years ago, and got a soft ride and less dive.  Talked to Bob Smith - he said the same thing - harsh ride - and so doesn't recommend Progressive front springs anymore.  Now take what I just said with a grain of salt.  Because I violated the "scientific method".  I changed several things at once.  And who knows if the springs are the same as 20 years ago.  Or if they were changed deliberately, or the springs are now "unobtainium" so they substituted something else and "forgot" to tell me, or some clerk just screwed up and shipped the wrong springs.  Not to mention, I could have got slightly too much oil in, though I was pretty careful.  Didn't realize a difference of say 1/4 oz matters much.  That could be it too.  And even Bob aka Attic Rat might have made the same mistake.  I mean after all, if a little is good, "a bit more is better" right?  It's surprising to me that considering the volume of oil in there (Clymer spec, Rt 22.52-22.68 US oz, Lft 24.72-24.88 oz) that a small amount over would destroy the ride.  And my oil was not measured with a laboratory graduated measure but a kitchen measuring cup.  They do specify, measure the depth and suck out any extra which I did.  But again, not until after being done and unhappy with the ride, and even reading this, am I more aware of the specificity precision importance.  I might get a wild hair and see if I can lower it slightly though the effort does not motivate me much.

BTW the handling is better with the VTXtreme 4° trees, and the look is WAY better with all the polishing I did, in addfition to Daryl's beautiful polish on the trees.  Though that's harder to see with the shield blocking up the view. I was going to clear powder coat the works but did one fork and was disappointed with the result so I stripped it back off, repolished and then put a good coat of Mother's on the works.  It was quite a bit of time to do the job, though I'm not complaining, after all it's quality time with my baby.  

[Valkorado]

My former Interstate Big Bertha had Progressive Springs,  my current Interstate does not.   I do feel that Bertha's ride was smoother in the bars and grips.  We live on a pretty ratty road that is good for testing your suspension.    

Bertha also seemed to dive less when braking.

My experience only,  as MarkT mentioned  YMMV.   (damn those forks look nice,  Mark)

Conversely, I found a huge difference in braking feel and response with stainless lines front and back.   Others report a less dramatic  change over stock lines.

[CoreyP]

Sounds like these forks aren't so easy to take apart and reassemble? I have done a set of forks before and they didn't take that log but it was a different set up. Sounds like I would have to get something real accurate to measure the fork oil, I'm more of a close enough guy when it comes to fluids. If a quarter oz makes a difference I'll have to be real careful.

I would bet I have the original fork oil, might be a good idea to change that to see if that make s a difference? Sounds like I would be better off with a heavier oil then stock. I don't know if these forks have every leaked or had anything done to them. I have have no paper work so I assume no. There's no way to change the oil without taking the forks off is there?   

[MarkT]

Yes you can pull the lower forks out w/o removing the uppers.  I've read reports of that being done.  Though I haven't. Not with VTXtreme triple trees however.  The caps on the top tree are underneath, covered over by the polished upper tree, not accessible for oil maintenance with the forks on the bike.  That's OK with me, these trees are gorgeous, you rarely do that and if you want to, just loosen the fork clamps and lower the uppers some to add or remove oil (with a suction hose).  You can't remove parts from the top w/o taking them off however.   I removed the forks as I was going to install the trees and then polish the tubes (and everything else) and expected to powder coat them.  With OEM trees you could rebuild the forks completely - change all the parts inside - as long as you can access the top openings and the bottoms.  That is, w/o removing the upper tubes from the trees, or the handlebars.  Which saves a lot of work if you have a lot of stuff on them like I do.  Think of all the stuff you have hanging on your forks.  Hassle to remove and replace.  I'd love to polish up the master cylinders and other dull metal on the handlebars, but don't relish the labor to R&R them.  Probably a project with the next round tuit I get after current projects...






You can review Wood Butcher's procedure at the link I posted above.  BTW his homemade out of PVC fork seal tool won't install All Balls seals if you go with those.  They are tighter, you need the official tool.  I don't know if the homemader spanner wrench I saw some one mention, made of PVC would work, the torque required is too high - 72ft/lb - for a plastic tool.  I made one from a piece of exhaust tubing, a 1 5/16 socket, a big washer and a bolt.   I also needed to make a hook to tension the spring with a ratchet strap to pull down the spring collar tube while pulling up on the damper rod, to seat the slotted spring seat stopper washer.  Here's the 3 special tools I needed.  In addition, some large sockets I didn't have yet - but do now.   I don't recall for sure if I needed the one on the far right for this project.  And of course there were lots more tools I already had on hand.  Sorry, the list would be long and I could never remember it now.

[98valk]

progressive springs are not the cause of a harsh ride. The fluid weight which isn't a standard like motor oil and the amount are the cause if we are talking about the standard/tourer forks.
The I/S forks just have bad compression and rebound rates to deal with the weight of the fairing. Yes the rates are different than the standard rates. The correct way would have been stronger springs.

I'm running Amsoil fork oil with progressive springs. Initial install, harsh ride with 10wt. fork seal started leaking, over time less fluid smoother ride.  fixed the leak and replaced oil with a 50/50 mix of amsoil 10 and 5 weights which is about 7.5wt.
Great smooth ride now, takes all bumps extremely well now.

So best thing is to use a lighter wt oil with progressive springs.

https://www.peterverdone.com/wiki/index.php?title=Suspension_Fluid
http://peterverdone.com/archive/files/suspension%20oils.pdf

[MarkT]

I'm using Bel-Ray 10wt Fork Oil as recommended by Daryl at VTXtreme Triple Trees.  He has many years of experience on these forks, these bikes and the custom angle trees so I deferred to his expertise.  But I'll bounce this off him.  And this is also Bob Smith's opinion - harsh Progressive springs. Probably one of the best Valkyrie gearheads there is.  And again, I had too many variables at once.  As I said before I'll likely get a wild hair and make adjustments, likely to the fluid.  This harsh ride will grate on me since I know it can and should, and used to be, better.

[Avanti]

I have over 60,000 miles using Daryl's 4 degree Triple Trees and Hyperpro front springs with 7wt Fork Oil.
I have just changed the oil for the third time, oil at rebuild with Hyperpro, again at 30,000 and just lately at 60,000.
Comes off the kickstand easily, rides nice, and steers like it has power steering. 

[98valk]

https://www.visordown.com/features/workshop/suspension-know-how

https://lifeatlean.com/teach-me-suspension-how-to-make-compression-damping-adjustments/

https://lifeatlean.com/teach-me-suspension-compression-and-rebound-damping/

[CoreyP]

https://www.visordown.com/features/workshop/suspension-know-how

https://lifeatlean.com/teach-me-suspension-how-to-make-compression-damping-adjustments/

https://lifeatlean.com/teach-me-suspension-compression-and-rebound-damping/

I'm way beyond those links but someone may find them useful.

To my knowledge the Valkyrie forks can't be adjusted, if so this would be over very quickly. I have had sport bikes that you could adjust the front forks and I wish that was true on a Valkyrie. If they are adjustable please tell me where I'm missing the damper adjustment?

The situation is this. I have set the SAG and have new tires along with rear shocks. I'm happy with the rear shocks, they are doing what I want them to do and are adjustable in two ways. The over all problem is after the rear shocks were replaced now the front end feels bad to me. That is subjective. This is where I get into what can I do and what am I really looking for as far as feel. I'm just trying to dial it in which I have done on sport bikes. I don't have to dial it in butt I feel the need to.

I'm looking at different springs along with different oil weights. Could be something else out there I don't know about but these forks seem to have limited options. Doesn't surprise me this isn't a track day bike. I'm just looking at my options to see if anything can really be done with the forks. The answer very well may be you get what you get and that's it. 

[hubcapsc]

You can send your forks (or ride your bike ) to Traxxion in Georgia
and they will replace the internals with their custom machined
internals, then you will have adjustable preload and also rebound
damping... I just re-read their web page, they used to not send out
kits, but required installation by "authorized service" people, but
they will send out a kit now...

If you haven't already properly rebuilt your forks with all the
OEM wear parts and good springs (like Progressive), you should
try that, it counts as a GIANT adjustment.

-Mike

[CoreyP]

You can send your forks (or ride your bike ) to Traxxion in Georgia
and they will replace the internals with their custom machined
internals, then you will have adjustable preload and also rebound
damping... I just re-read their web page, they used to not send out
kits, but required installation by "authorized service" people, but
they will send out a kit now...

If you haven't already properly rebuilt your forks with all the
OEM wear parts and good springs (like Progressive), you should
try that, it counts as a GIANT adjustment.

-Mike

That's also in my mind. Just tune up the front forks and that may be enough.

I looked at that traxxion kit but it's a $1,000 for the kit. I don't think I want to spend that much.  I could ride there, they aren't that far away from here then head over to visit my brother who lives in Birmingham AL. For that matter I have a friend with a lake house off of I-16. I could make a whole road trip out of it and get my forks done while I'm at it.

[hubcapsc]

I could make a whole road trip out of it and get my forks done while I'm at it.

I wanted to do that. They plan on the "full monty" for a Goldwing taking a day to do, so
when you make an appointment, you're the only customer in the motorcycle part of the
shop that day. When my day came it was flash flooding in every direction for a
couple of hundred miles and I slogged my 1800 over to them in the back of
my wife's truck  ...



I think it would be cool to get their kit in my 1500's forks, but I like the action
of the forks as they are, freshly rebuilt with good springs, I think I said somewhere
"I like the red bike"  ...

-Mike

[mello dude]

Since this thread is about springs....... additional information to check is Sonic Springs.
I had my fork rebuilt with .90 by DMr in Fort Wayne Indiana......