HVAC questions

[Jess from VA]

I have a 1985 install (35 years) Carrier hvac gas furnace and electric central ac for about an 1100 sq ft house I bought in 1992 (28 years).

It has mostly been issue free.  

New igniter on the furnace once.  The outside compressor has had coolant recharges 3-4 times over the years (but not for about 9 years).  I have not been very good at cleaning the compressor (years).  I seem to remember being told I likely had a very tiny leak, but not to really worry about it, and the very occasional recharges seems to bear that out.

Yesterday, 1st need of AC this year, it ran (12+ hours) and the house started and ended at 76 degrees (it got to 85 yesterday).  The air from the vents is barely cool.  The house did not drop one degree with it running all day, but the house did not get any warmer either.

I am scheduled for hvac service Monday morning. The outfit has very good reviews on line.

I understand R22 (which my unit must use?) is no longer made, but if obtainable is expensive.

I hate to lose a unit that has been so reliable for so long, but that may be necessary.

I know we have some experts, and I am wondering if there are brand name AC units you want, or want to avoid?   If I need a new unit, what is the ballpark money it will cost me?  

What do I need to know I haven't asked about?  

Starting to sweat in VA.

[Chrisj CMA]

It may have been reliable but after 30 years even if it is operating at its 100% it’s robbing you due to being severely inefficient compared to what you will get when you replace it. It’s time

[sandy]

I have a Goodman’s unit. Installed about 6 years ago. Not one issue with it. Electric bills came down about $50 a month during our very hot summers in AZ.

[carolinarider09]

I am not an HVAC tech (but I did, about 15 or so years ago, attend my local tech school and get a Universal Refrigerant and Transfer card so I could purchase some Freon that required a license to buy) but when I was building my house I did some research here. That was maybe 12 years or so ago.  

https://hvac-talk.com/vbb/forum.php

I got, at least in my opinion, some good advice and I, then, narrowed my choices down to a Carrier unit or a Bryant unit.  I purchased a Bryant unit.  It has two speeds (or load settings), 60% or 100%.  It is a 3 Ton unit.

The installer was a local company that has proven to be fairly good in maintenance (I have an annual contract) and there techs appear to be competent.  

I recently had the evaporator replaced, device under warranty but labor was expensive (can't recall the figure).

So, if I was going to replace my unit (which I did get an estimate for when I was looking at replacing the evaporator) I would go with a Bryant again.  It is my understanding that the new units (well maybe the top of the line) are inverter controlled and therefore can provide more variable cooling and heating supplies.  

My unit (and any future unit) is a heat pump with natural gas as a backup for heating below 39 degrees (or something similar).  It is my understanding that the new inverter units can supply heat at much lower temperatures.  

I have an enclosed area off the great room in my house that we put flooring in and now use it sort of like a sun room.  It is not insulated.  We recently installed a Bryant Ductless system in this room.  It only has to heat/cool about 160 sq ft.  The systems only drawback is that the air handler is located near the ceiling.  Good for cooling I suspect but not as good for heating.  An overhead fan helps out for heating.  It will keep the room at a reasonable temperature during all seasons.

[0leman]

Jess, I too have the AC unit you are referring to, ours also functions as a heat pump in winter time.  I have had it serviced  once in the 10 years we have lived here.   But our main furnace is one of carriers electric furnaces.  I have been setting aside money to have the whole unit replaced.   I will be replacing the furnace with a gas fired one when the time comes.   I know the efficiency of our electric furnace is probably less the 75% and is costing us money. 

Thankfully both the AC/electric units are still working and do heat/cool our 2100 sqft home.

[f6john]

If you can easily afford to change out your unit, now is the time. You will notice an immediate improvement in performance and cost. I will be faced with this soon. I have only been in this house for a year but the unit was installed in 1999 when the house was built. I hope to go with a dual fuel unit to help with the coldest weather, an automatic insurance policy we won’t have any bad winters for years to come

[_Sheffjs_]

I had a unit that would cool ok but not keep the house dry and it was the cooling coils that were dirty. Cleaned up made a HUGE difference.   

[scooperhsd]

30+years old ? Should have been replaced 10 years ago. The newer units are so much more efficent, both air conditioner and furnace.

Rather than brand, what you should be shopping for is a company that has a good reputation for good installs / good service.

Make sure they do a Manual J analysis to properly size both units. You may want to consider getting a heat pump instead of air conditioner, and then have a gas furnace for aux (I did that in my NC house - when propane jumped in price, I ran the heatpump as long as I could (down to 25F or so)) . The higher the SEER rating, the more efficient - but your house needs to have adequate insulation to make it really payoff and probably the sweet spot (price /performance) is around 14-16 SEER. For Northern VA, I'd be surprised if you need much more than 2.5 - 3 tons for the A/C. Oversizing the A/C is as bad as undersizing (humidity considerations here - and you get ALOT of humidity there). Multistaging could be nice to help handle the humidity better - I'd have them price both single and multistage A/C.

My MIL's house has a 21 years old A/C, and I'm just waiting for it to die before replacing (furnace is "only "11 years old). Our big handicap is that the house was built in the early 1950's and the ductwork was only setup for heating - we use a window unit in our bedroom so we can sleep in the summer without roasting too bad. The only way to improve the duct work is to rip it out and start over ($$$$)

[bassman]

This list changes yearly I'm sure......replaced my A/C and furnace 3 years ago with a Lennox...very happy with them both....have the annual maintenance plan also.....would look for a good installer with excellent follow-up service in your area first and see what brand(s) they recommend/service.

https://www.hvac.com/air-conditioners/best/

[Robert]

I have a Goodman’s unit. Installed about 6 years ago. Not one issue with it. Electric bills came down about $50 a month during our very hot summers in AZ.

Had American Standard/Trane the outside coils got a hole in them and since it was 5 years old they would not stand behind the warranty. It was a known defect and they have had a suit on it.

So put in a 4ton single stage condenser from Goodman which was originally told to me to be a better choice when I got the AM. All the fancy bells and whistles go bad, but Goodman is off the shelf parts and easily and inexpensively repaired. The blower assembly went out on my AM also and had to get a blower motor 1100.00 just for the variable speed blower motor, not the whole assembly. I replaced it myself, think about this on all the fancy stuff.

Everyone I know who put in a Goodman is happy with them for many years.

You will save money by replacing your older unit. My bills went down about 40 a month from my old unit that the AM replaced. 

[Jess from VA]

30+years old ? Should have been replaced 10 years ago. The newer units are so much more efficent, both air conditioner and furnace.

Rather than brand, what you should be shopping for is a company that has a good reputation for good installs / good service.

Make sure they do a Manual J analysis to properly size both units. You may want to consider getting a heat pump instead of air conditioner, and then have a gas furnace for aux (I did that in my NC house - when propane jumped in price, I ran the heatpump as long as I could (down to 25F or so)) . The higher the SEER rating, the more efficient - but your house needs to have adequate insulation to make it really payoff and probably the sweet spot (price /performance) is around 14-16 SEER. For Northern VA, I'd be surprised if you need much more than 2.5 - 3 tons for the A/C. Oversizing the A/C is as bad as undersizing (humidity considerations here - and you get ALOT of humidity there). Multistaging could be nice to help handle the humidity better - I'd have them price both single and multistage A/C.

My MIL's house has a 21 years old A/C, and I'm just waiting for it to die before replacing (furnace is "only "11 years old). Our big handicap is that the house was built in the early 1950's and the ductwork was only setup for heating - we use a window unit in our bedroom so we can sleep in the summer without roasting too bad. The only way to improve the duct work is to rip it out and start over ($$$$)

Thanks everyone, and Scoop.  

Everything you report is consistent with what I've read this morning.

My installer is a neighbor (who's been here twice before), and his company has very good ratings.

I live in a neighborhood where 3 house styles are repeated all over the place, so he's probably already done multiple installs with the identical house, ducting, size, yada.  2.5 to 3 ton looks optimal.  I would not get a heat pump, it gets too cold here, though not lately.  Copy SEER 14-16, the really higher ones are real expensive overkill, and not as reliable.  

After 10 years of miserable hot sleep upstairs (3-level split), I also put in a small window unit in the bedroom, which cools that small room easily, and I'm not trying to cool the whole house enough just to get that bedroom livable/sleepable.  Even with a new house unit, this will continue.  That window unit was cheap, quiet (enough) and I installed it right, and it kicks ass at 10 years old.  Also a big plus, if I lose power for awhile in summer heat, it lets me have one livable room running off my generator, which will not run 220 AC.

I'm prepared to get all new if that's recommended, but if he says he can fix what I have and it's good to go, I may just get the fix (if it will still be reliable, as it mostly has).  My electric bills in summer heat rarely/barely crack much over $100 a month.   Last month's gas bill was $12; no furnace used, just a (new) water heater and stove.  I live alone, and cheap (as I can).

So lets see, within a few years, I needed two new fridges, one new water heater, one sump pump, one used (perfect) Honda lawn mower, one new bed, one new truck, a bunch of plumbing repair, one family of mice removed, one blown over solid fence repaired..... so I guess the next thing to go will be my dryer which I brought home from the Air Force in 1992.

My two honda valks are OK, though one clutch is suspect.

I'd like to get my head transplanted on an 18yo body, but they're still working on that. 

[Ramie]

You existing unit has a very low efficiency.  I don't know your area or your current configuration or how energy efficient your home is but I would think it would cost you around $3,500 to $4,500.  Check out any rebates your local energy company might have for going with a higher seer unit or manufacture rebates.  Get a number of quotes for major brand name dealers, Amana, York, Carrier.  Most of those dealers handle less expensive lines such as goodman etc.
Also if you know a hvac tech and aren't in a hurry buy your own and have someone install it for you.

https://www.djscompanies.com/goodmanac.html

[scooperhsd]

I put the window unit in late April / early May and take it late October / early November . I'm taking advantage of the storm windows for winter out here.

[Jess from VA]

For years, I took mine out every winter; back in every summer.  But I got it so well insulated and taped in that window that I just leave it in year round now, and it seems to be none the worse for the weather.  And amazingly no bugs get in, which is always a big plus.  And that is the one window in the whole house that would always be covered anyway for privacy.

I decided I'd rather buy another if (when) I have to, instead of all the in-and-out work.

[shadowsoftime]

19 year old American Standard outside unit heat and air combo, total electric house with 30 x 40 shop, 3 security lights by electric company, 1750 square foot home.
  House stays at 62 degrees summer and winter, 365 / 24/7
Summer time 275.00 to 325.00 a month, Winter time 125.00 to 175.00

[dconstruct55]

Jess,
Sounds like your condenser fan motor is out, pretty cheap fix if that is the problem. I would recommend a new system as soon as you can budget it for many of the resins already cited here, but primarily efficiency. Stay with Carrier and go with a 410-A refrigerant based system. Good luck!

[mello dude]

I also need a new A/C system (furnace is fine) for my 1100 sq ft ranch house.
Generally what should a lowest cost system run $ ?

[Chrisj CMA]

I also need a new A/C system (furnace is fine) for my 1100 sq ft ranch house.
Generally what should a lowest cost system run $ ?

I would say at least 5 Grand 

[The emperor has no clothes]

I also need a new A/C system (furnace is fine) for my 1100 sq ft ranch house.
Generally what should a lowest cost system run $ ?

If you are able to do wiring, gas welding, and are willing to get a little dirty you can save yourself a substantial amount of money. I bought a 4 ton Goodman system with the variable speed air handler a few years back. I think with all the associated stuff and extras it cost me $1900. Probably the hardest part is running the lines and welding them up without a leak. But, if you are not comfortable doing that, I'm sure you could find a friend or associate that is proficient at it. I had quotes from A/C companies from 5-7 thousand. Saving 3-5k was worth it to me.

https://www.acwholesalers.com/Goodman-GSX140361-ARUF37C14/p87125.html?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIlYbXy-jc6QIVC77ACh3znw2KEAQYBCABEgJXmvD_BwE


I also had to do a little sheet metal work to match up the new unit to the existing ductwork. Pretty easy stuff though.

If you have the unit that goes on your roof. (Non split system) that will save you a lot of work, as everything is already hooked. But you will need to rent a crane unit to remove the old and install the new.

[cookiedough]

your house is 1100 sq. ft I think you said similar to mine.  I have a 2 ton comfortmaker still going from 1993 am sure will clunk out one of these years before 30 years is up.    2 ton should be fine for such a small house such as ours seems to work well no need for bigger IMO.  Our AC bill is nowhere near over 100 bucks per month to run it say 30-40 bucks but I do not run the AC much in the summer vs. in the cold winter our heat bill gas furnace is around 100-120 per month.  I keep the heat at 68 degrees just enough to keep warm where as the AC is in the upper 70's I think but do not turn it on until upper 80s for temps and humid out.

[Wizzard]

I also need a new A/C system (furnace is fine) for my 1100 sq ft ranch house.
Generally what should a lowest cost system run $ ?

If you are able to do wiring, gas welding, and are willing to get a little dirty you can save yourself a substantial amount of money. I bought a 4 ton Goodman system with the variable speed air handler a few years back. I think with all the associated stuff and extras it cost me $1900. Probably the hardest part is running the lines and welding them up without a leak. But, if you are not comfortable doing that, I'm sure you could find a friend or associate that is proficient at it. I had quotes from A/C companies from 5-7 thousand. Saving 3-5k was worth it to me.

https://www.acwholesalers.com/Goodman-GSX140361-ARUF37C14/p87125.html?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIlYbXy-jc6QIVC77ACh3znw2KEAQYBCABEgJXmvD_BwE


I also had to do a little sheet metal work to match up the new unit to the existing ductwork. Pretty easy stuff though.

If you have the unit that goes on your roof. (Non split system) that will save you a lot of work, as everything is already hooked. But you will need to rent a crane unit to remove the old and install the new.

Yes but in many states you have to be licensed just to put in the freon or even to buy it

[Jess from VA]

Well good news and (mostly) bad news.

The AC (33 years old) is shot.  The furnace is just as old but not quite shot, but may be shot any day, and I save pretty well to get them both done (in one day).  $7000+ (SEER 16; Carrier/Bryant).  But not until next week (get in line brother).

I guess the good news is it will all be new, and I'll be dead before it is.  So when my body is found, it may be mildly refrigerated (or warm, depending on the time of year). 

[carolinarider09]

Yes good news and bad news.  And yes, its time was up. 

Hope the weather is nice this week up there.

[Jess from VA]

Yes good news and bad news.  And yes, its time was up.  

Hope the weather is nice this week up there.

That's the thing Jim.  96-88 for the rest of the week starting Wednesday.  It's going to suck the big one.

I do have a 110 window unit in the bedroom (with no TV/computer or nothin' but a bed and light.... and a book).  

Maybe a bucket of dry ice and a fan?

[cookiedough]

7k seems a little steep to me even for both done at the same time, but have not priced out new AC units ever.  Like said, I got my Amana gas furnace installed new for under 2 grand in same square footage home most were 2500-3K though in price quotes so I guess 7K is not too far out of line? 

7K will or should last you like you said the rest of  your life assuming you do not live more than say 20 more years?    ???   I have heard though from many that the newer more efficient everything from appliances to furnances to water heaters to AC units do NOT last 20-30 years anymore like they use to but most say the energy efficiency savings alone in say 10-15 years life expectancy will be on par with the longer longevity of the older units built 20-30 years ago. 

I do know my newer Amana gas furnace I think 98 percent energy efficiency cycles on/off 4x's as much as our older Comfortmaker 80% efficiency gas furnance so one would suspect much greater on/off cycles would make parts fail quicker, maybe?  Or maybe save them since our old 80% gas furnance would run too long getting parts too hot and dirty (not the cleanest running gas furnace am sure being 23 years old), who knows?

[carolinarider09]

Bucket of dry ice and a fan, only problem is excess CO2 

When I had my evaporator coil replaced I was told it was rusted out due to the use of "steel" in its construction.  The new ones are aluminum.  So, the question is why steel?  Something to do with federal guidelines???  which have since been changed.   

To replace my 3 Ton Bryant would have cost about $12,000.  Its ten years old.  Like you, I have had previous units that lasted much longer than 10 years.  I elected to not do a system replace yet since I have the companies tech come out and service the unit twice a year.  I will just keep an eye on it.  The outside condenser is not steel I was told. 

My previous house had its unit in place for about 20 years before I had to have it replaced.  The replacement, taking place sometime in the early nineties is still there (we moved out about ten years ago). 

[scooperhsd]

Yes good news and bad news.  And yes, its time was up. 

Hope the weather is nice this week up there.

That's the thing Jim.  96-88 for the rest of the week starting Wednesday.  It's going to suck the big one.

I do have a 110 window unit in the bedroom (with no TV/computer or nothin' but a bed and light.... and a book).   

Maybe a bucket of dry ice and a fan?

Well if the bedroom unit isn't quite enough, maybe a couple nights in hotel ? Or maybe find a mall to hangout in to keep cool during the day ...

Ouch on the price, but, as you said, it will likely outlive you. I'm sure some of that is seasonal demand, and some is the price of living close to DC. I think that is why no one wanted to guess on price.

[Jess from VA]

The price is the best I could hope for in my perpetually expensive area.

My HVAC man is a neighbor and a friend, and said I could get estimates all week, and might find $200 cheaper, if I was lucky.  I offered a substantial tip if I could get it tomorrow, before the heat wave.  And no joy.  

I think 20 more years is a pipe dream.  The women on both sides of my family have pushed 100, but none of the menfolk.  Now where did I leave my tobacco (and coffee)?

No motel or mall (or sitting in my idling truck).  I am seriously thinking about another small window unit to just sit on a stool in my computer/study room (to eventually replace the bedroom unit).  But the nights will cool off enough to blow the heat out.  Growing up on an island in MI, heat has always killed me more than cold.

EDIT:  Well things are looking much better.  I got a $28 rebate on my truck ins.   

    

[The emperor has no clothes]

I also need a new A/C system (furnace is fine) for my 1100 sq ft ranch house.
Generally what should a lowest cost system run $ ?

If you are able to do wiring, gas welding, and are willing to get a little dirty you can save yourself a substantial amount of money. I bought a 4 ton Goodman system with the variable speed air handler a few years back. I think with all the associated stuff and extras it cost me $1900. Probably the hardest part is running the lines and welding them up without a leak. But, if you are not comfortable doing that, I'm sure you could find a friend or associate that is proficient at it. I had quotes from A/C companies from 5-7 thousand. Saving 3-5k was worth it to me.

https://www.acwholesalers.com/Goodman-GSX140361-ARUF37C14/p87125.html?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIlYbXy-jc6QIVC77ACh3znw2KEAQYBCABEgJXmvD_BwE


I also had to do a little sheet metal work to match up the new unit to the existing ductwork. Pretty easy stuff though.

If you have the unit that goes on your roof. (Non split system) that will save you a lot of work, as everything is already hooked. But you will need to rent a crane unit to remove the old and install the new.

Yes but in many states you have to be licensed just to put in the freon or even to buy it

They come fully charged. All you need to do is weld up the lines and open the valve.

[Wizzard]

by weld do you mean "sweating copper"?
Also don't you have to have a vacuum pump to pull a vacuum on the Evap.  and line to make sure there is not moisture in there?

[The emperor has no clothes]

by weld do you mean "sweating copper"?
Also don't you have to have a vacuum pump to pull a vacuum on the Evap.  and line to make sure there is not moisture in there?

It’s been a few years back that I did this. So, I might get some of the details wrong. But as I remember, the unit came fully charged and sealed with refrigerant. It was recommended to braze or silver solder the line joints. I chose brazing, as that seemed stronger to me. Then it was just opening a valve and letting the refrigerant flow. I think it was designed for up to 50’ of line, if you needed more you would have to add refrigerant. For me the biggest part of the job was the electrical to my air handler. My old line wasn’t long enough, and I had to add to it. The duct work was tedious but pretty simple.

[carolinarider09]

by weld do you mean "sweating copper"?
Also don't you have to have a vacuum pump to pull a vacuum on the Evap.  and line to make sure there is not moisture in there?

That was my understanding as well.  When they installed my mini split, I did not notice if they evacuated the connecting lines.  I did not monitor them ever minute.

However, everything I have learned and heard basically says, you connect the devices, evacuate the lines, open the appropriate valves and then verify the pressure is correct.  (running or not running, its been a long time since I had the courses). 

The verification of the pressure is imperative to ensure proper operation of the unit and, in reality, the pulling of a vacuum is to verify the integrity of the lines. 

Vacuum pumps can be made for this purpose (a couple of refrigration compressors connected together can pull a pretty good vacuum).  Pressure measures devices might be a little different.

And, I would want an amp meter to measure current demand of the compressor and other devices. 

Then there is the warranty to consider.  Generally the warranty is based on installation by a (for lack of the proper term) licensed or certified person. 

[Jess from VA]

My neighbor the expert HVAC tech told me stories about the R22 and other coolants, and the politics about them.

He said that propane is an excellent coolant, and is cheap.  The problem is, it goes into the house and is surrounded by all kinds of electrical things that can spark up, and goes to your furnace with the big gas burner in it.  So propane could be a great coolant, but it could also blow your house up, so propane as coolant is out.

This was the same reason I elected against a big propane powered generator.  Cold/frozen (small) propane tanks won't flow fuel very well.  And the idea of keeping 20, 5 gallon propane tanks in my basement utility room (to keep them warm) seemed like a real bad idea.  My bedroom (and bed) is immediately above the utility room. 

[RP#62]

by weld do you mean "sweating copper"?
Also don't you have to have a vacuum pump to pull a vacuum on the Evap.  and line to make sure there is not moisture in there?

That was my understanding as well.  When they installed my mini split, I did not notice if they evacuated the connecting lines.  I did not monitor them ever minute.

However, everything I have learned and heard basically says, you connect the devices, evacuate the lines, open the appropriate valves and then verify the pressure is correct.  (running or not running, its been a long time since I had the courses). 

The verification of the pressure is imperative to ensure proper operation of the unit and, in reality, the pulling of a vacuum is to verify the integrity of the lines. 

Vacuum pumps can be made for this purpose (a couple of refrigration compressors connected together can pull a pretty good vacuum).  Pressure measures devices might be a little different.

And, I would want an amp meter to measure current demand of the compressor and other devices. 

Then there is the warranty to consider.  Generally the warranty is based on installation by a (for lack of the proper term) licensed or certified person. 

I installed a mini-split in the garage a couple of months ago.  I just had to cut and flare some copper tube and connect it all up.  Then used a vacuum pump and manifold to evacuate the system.  Closed it off under vacuum and watched the gages for about 10 minutes to make sure none of my connections were leaking, then just opened the valve to let the gas into the system.  Pretty easy actually.

-RP

[Wizzard]

by weld do you mean "sweating copper"?
Also don't you have to have a vacuum pump to pull a vacuum on the Evap.  and line to make sure there is not moisture in there?

That was my understanding as well.  When they installed my mini split, I did not notice if they evacuated the connecting lines.  I did not monitor them ever minute.

However, everything I have learned and heard basically says, you connect the devices, evacuate the lines, open the appropriate valves and then verify the pressure is correct.  (running or not running, its been a long time since I had the courses). 

The verification of the pressure is imperative to ensure proper operation of the unit and, in reality, the pulling of a vacuum is to verify the integrity of the lines. 

Vacuum pumps can be made for this purpose (a couple of refrigration compressors connected together can pull a pretty good vacuum).  Pressure measures devices might be a little different.

And, I would want an amp meter to measure current demand of the compressor and other devices. 

Then there is the warranty to consider.  Generally the warranty is based on installation by a (for lack of the proper term) licensed or certified person. 

I installed a mini-split in the garage a couple of months ago.  I just had to cut and flare some copper tube and connect it all up.  Then used a vacuum pump and manifold to evacuate the system.  Closed it off under vacuum and watched the gages for about 10 minutes to make sure none of my connections were leaking, then just opened the valve to let the gas into the system.  Pretty easy actually.

-RP

Now you are speaking what I thought should be done. If you pull a vacuum you can ck the line for leaks and evacuate any  moisture.

[Jess from VA]

Well, five and half hours and $7500 later, I have new AC (and a new furnace) again.

He said it could take 24 hours to cool off.

Hell, 30 minutes later and it's freeking wonderful in here again.

Every so often, it's a real pleasure to watch committed professionals go to town and kick ass, in your favor. 

I'm gonna sit here in my underbritches until I can't stand it.   

[carolinarider09]

 

[Funbaldguy]

 

[Jess from VA]

OK, I can't stand it.   Shivering my ass off in one hour.   

[scooperhsd]

Well, five and half hours and $7500 later, I have new AC (and a new furnace) again.

He said it could take 24 hours to cool off.

Hell, 30 minutes later and it's freeking wonderful in here again.

Every so often, it's a real pleasure to watch committed professionals go to town and kick ass, in your favor. 

I'm gonna sit here in my underbritches until I can't stand it.   

That image in my mind just cracked me up - but I understand the sentiment (our NC house heatpump / furnace was installed in march).