An off the wall CPL question for our legal scholars or ***MODIFIED****

[bassman]

MODIFIED THE ORIGINAL QUESTION FROM "IF"

Off the wall CPL question……

Since defunding police has begun in some cities, do the senior police officials in those affected cities/states have the power to “swear in” or “deputize” CPL holders to use as a policing entity or some type of protection force since
they have pretty much been vetted during the CPL application process?  Without a paid / working police force, could the CPL holders be used to somehow take their place?

[Bighead]

Off the wall CPL question……

IF defunding police were to pass in any city or state, do the senior police officials in those affected cities/states have the power to “swear in” or “deputize” CPL holders to use as a policing entity or some type of protection force since
they have pretty much been vetted during the CPL application process?  Without a paid / working police force, could the CPL holders be used to somehow take their place?

IF? It is happening now.

[bassman]

Off the wall CPL question……

IF defunding police were to pass in any city or state, do the senior police officials in those affected cities/states have the power to “swear in” or “deputize” CPL holders to use as a policing entity or some type of protection force since
they have pretty much been vetted during the CPL application process?  Without a paid / working police force, could the CPL holders be used to somehow take their place?

IF? It is happening now.

Thanks....modified the original question to exclude "IF"

[Oss]

Well a well regulated militia is part of the 2nd amendment isnt it?

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

So who is to say that an appointed Sheriff could not deputize anyone?

Good question.  We have states National Guard units in each state right Jess?

some historical context
In Federalist No. 46, Madison wrote how a federal army could be kept in check by state militias, "a standing army ... would be opposed [by] a militia." He argued that state militias "would be able to repel the danger" of a federal army, "It may well be doubted, whether a militia thus circumstanced could ever be conquered by such a proportion of regular troops." He contrasted the federal government of the United States to the European kingdoms, which he described as "afraid to trust the people with arms", and assured that "the existence of subordinate governments ... forms a barrier against the enterprises of ambition".[14][15]

When the 2nd continental congress gave us the present constitution the federal government became stronger than the individual states for the first time.  The power to tax became the power to destroy and so it has remained today.  But the right and duty of the people to be armed must be protected at all costs even beyond the federal existence imho

[scooperhsd]

Well a well regulated militia is part of the 2nd amendment isnt it?

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

So who is to say that an appointed Sheriff could not deputize anyone?

Good question.  We have states National Guard units in each state right Jess?

some historical context
In Federalist No. 46, Madison wrote how a federal army could be kept in check by state militias, "a standing army ... would be opposed [by] a militia." He argued that state militias "would be able to repel the danger" of a federal army, "It may well be doubted, whether a militia thus circumstanced could ever be conquered by such a proportion of regular troops." He contrasted the federal government of the United States to the European kingdoms, which he described as "afraid to trust the people with arms", and assured that "the existence of subordinate governments ... forms a barrier against the enterprises of ambition".[14][15]

Every state and probably every territory / possesion, and For sure Washington DC. I'm pretty sure that Puerto Rico also has National Guard units.

[Serk]

IMHO no...

Other than under the most extreme and egregious circumstances, I carry to protect myself, my family and my friends.

In most cases I'm not gonna let it all hang out to protect a stranger.

I wish I could, but in the current environment, even if you're right, you're wrong, and I'd be jeopardizing my family by doing so...

[Jess from VA]

(With no research) I believe the power to deputize anyone by any state law enforcement agency would depend on whether (each) state law authorized such action (at all, or in what limited circumstances (like insurrection), and maybe by only certain law enforcement agencies, but not all).

CPL holders are only 1) not prohibited from owning firearms, and 2) required to pass some rudimentary safety class.  They are far from trained/qualified law enforcement personnel (either in the law or in the use of force).  

If a state law enforcement agency could deputize untrained civilians, a CPL would only be a single factor of many in a selection process.  And you'd have to volunteer.  They couldn't run it like the draft.

Many states have laws that allow a policeman to request (demand) your assistance in helping him out of an on-the-spot (felony level) jam, and it can be a crime to refuse his request (and that IS like the draft).  But this is limited to a single event unfolding right there, not full deputization to be a serving policeman.

However, during the big push for VA gun control laws this past Spring, and the passage of so many county and city 2d Amend sanctuary resolutions, several of our (elected) county sheriffs threatened to deputize as many citizens as necessary to ensure the 2d Amend was not abridged.  I do not know if they can actually do that or not, but it sure pissed a lot of Richmond politicians off.

The use of State National Guard (Army and Air) in state law enforcement functions is another matter entirely.  I'm pretty sure all power there resides (solely) in the governor, not any police agency.  And remember, only a small percentage of National Guard personnel are actually trained policemen.

Add to this, that urban-cities where defunding is happening, the mayor and city fathers would be completely against civilian deputization, and do everything in their power to stop it.  

And big city police departments that could deputize would probably be (justifiably) worried the civilians would be loose cannons and shoot fellow officers or the wrong people (and further hurt their public reputations), so they'd probably want to use civilians all suited up with clubs AND NO GUNS.  And most volunteers would say the hell with that, and quit.

Civilian deputization would work best in small villages and burgs with small police departments, but none of them are being defunded, and they don't need them.  

An interesting question would be whether groups of citizens could, under certain (dire) circumstances, form vigilance committees like early US territorial western towns did to combat crime when there were no policeman to do it.  It seems unlikely (to be authorized by state law anywhere).  It probably was not authorized by any territorial or US laws way back then, but they did it anyway.  You were shot or hung that day, and that was the end of it.

And if 2 or 3 hundred Seattle civilian business owners and other law and order civilians banded together and armed up, and gave notice to the hoodlums that they had 30 minutes to vacate the area, or they would march through and shoot anyone who remained, the defunded police would immediately be ordered to stop this with all force necessary and arrest them all, and then they'd be vigorously prosecuted to the full extent of the law.  And not all be released on their own recognizance with no bail (like all the violent protesters are).  And anarchist agitators would weep with joy at the prospect of police and law and order civilians fighting each other.

Studying the lawful ways to deal with complete breakdown anarchy in our cities is interesting, but difficult to say the least.  Antifa and BLM (and every neighborhood thug) know this and use it to their advantage, and if vigilante action does happen, it's all to their benefit in creating more anarchy.




 

[bassman]

Thank-you gentlemen for your well thought out responses.   

[F6Dave]

Many Sheriff's Departments have a Posse that might be used for such a purpose.  The county I live in does.  The last I heard, we had 15 or 20 Posse members.

[Ken aka Oil Burner]

If I was asked a month ago, I'd have gladly been deputized. Now, I'll help an officer in need, but that's about it. The far left MA "lawmakers" have already taken steps to prosecute officers for use of force during actions related to the job. So far, they claim that officers are still immune from prosecution as long as their actions are "legal", but they are already outlawing the use of a choke hold and other actions, so if a struggle gets crazy, the officer is limited in defending his or her self, as well as apprehending the person. One step over the very subjective "line", and you're going to jail. More than likely, said criminal got his hand slapped and is back on the street, but the officer will be incarcerated; "held to a higher level". No thanks.

https://apnews.com/a594849dda3db8df405e4b9a272ec414

[old2soon]

     Jess and Serk raise interesting points. In my little town here in Southern Missouri we already added two new Police Officers. We also have some of the newest Police pursuit vehicles G M makes. Greene county-Springfield-has also added new officers but I have little idea how many. Springfield appears to be using newer Ford sourced vehicles. Far as my personal safety goes I will state that should the excreetment hit the rotating air circulator I am NOT leaving alone.  I also noticed-no thanks to lame stream media-that most of the defunding talk and action seems to be happening in areas with a strong democrat controlled gubmint.  I feel we could be heading much faster down hill then a lot of folks realize. I KNOW it's impossible but like a commercial sez I'd like to turn back time. Being impossible I refuse to state here what I'd do were it possible. RIDE SAFE.

[MarkT]

I'm on my 4th 5-year CCW license.  I signed up as soon as it was legalized in 2003.  The document I signed said I agreed to be deputized by any LEO who asks for help.  So I see my role as unsworn deputy and have expressed that to LEO's at traffic stops.  Didn't necessarily get me out of the speeding tickets but a Kansas State Patrol officer shook my hand and thanked me for being a responsible citizen, who said I was carrying a "fine weapon" (S&W J-frame model 60 .357 with Crimson Trace green laser grips - didn't tell him I had another J-frame .357 on me when he confiscated the 60 temporarily) and "one day you'll save someone's life with that."  Not that taking ONE of my weapons was going to make him any safer though he said so when I said "OK, if it makes you feel better" - wasn't gonna shoot him anyway but if I was so inclined his action was insufficient to save his butt.

I told him I have been carrying legally through 3-5yr permits (returning from Roanoke Inzane), I own dozens of guns (before the boating incident) and in that time NONE of my guns have ever shot anybody.  They must be defective.  He laughed.

Then he handed me my failure to fully stop ticket.

BTW my county now provides the CCW renewal for veterans for free.  Maybe the original too, don't recall.  I paid hundreds back in '03 and something on every renewal since except the last one.

[Serk]

Try to help, get charged with murder.....

https://www.fox26houston.com/news/security-guard-charged-with-murder-in-deadly-shooting