DUI/DWI Penalities

[Rams]

Why is it we tolerate drunk drivers that have repeat offenses?
Someone please explain that to me.  

Some say alcoholism is a disease, I don't buy it.   We chose to do what we do.
At one point in my life, I was a heavy drinker.   I wisedup after a sobering incident.
I know many of our folks consume alcohol beverages but to my knowledge, none will ride after drinking.   There are probably exceptions I am unaware of.

Here are some of the harsher punishments for DUI/DWI.

Some of the Harshest DUI Punishments Around the World

If you think the drunk driving penalties in the U.S. are a little lenient, you’re right. Compared to the rest of the world, the U.S.’s DUI punishments are lenient. Most other countries give automatic license bans for several years on the first DUI charge, and some even suspend a license permanently if you get a second charge. The harshest DUI punishments around the world can sound crazy, though. Here are some of the top hard-core DUI penalties around the world.

Poland
Poland has a long history of having dangerous roads and tragic accidents, so they don’t tolerate any self-inflicted safety hazards. For the first offense, you lose your license for at least three years and face a minimum fine of $1,635.  That’s not all, though: you also have to attend a series of long political lectures.

Costa Rica, El Salvador, and France
The standard fees, jail time, and driving suspension applies to these countries. What sets them apart is that you can have your vehicle impounded and sold by the authorities for your first DUI offense.
And no, El Salvador will not execute you by firing squad like the rumors say.

South Africa
The jail time and fees are much higher in this country. For your first DUI, you can be sent to jail for 10 years, fined $10,000, or both.

Turkey
Turkey’s treatment of drunk drivers has always been something of a legend, because police officers were known to drive intoxicated drivers 20 miles out into the desert and force them to march back to civilization. They’re even kind enough to find an escort so you’d march the whole 20 miles without help.

Malaysia
Spouses beware: If your significant other gets a DUI in Malaysia, you can go to jail too, even if you didn’t know what they were doing. That means you’d have to hire two lawyers: One for the DUI charge, the other for a divorce.

Australia
There’s nothing like good old fashioned public humiliation. If you get a DUI in Australia, your name and offense is published in the newspaper for everyone to see. We guess a lot of people are fired from their jobs because of this.

United Arab Emirates
Flogging. Yep, you read that correctly. In addition to jail time, you could be flogged with 80 lashes across the arms, back, and legs.

Bulgaria
Bulgaria’s DUI punishment is decidedly the harshest. Your second offense will net you the death penalty. You will die.

The penalties in the U.S. are pathetic by comparison. We don’t necessarily want the extremes of floggings or the death penalty. Instead, maybe we should try a nice mix of Australia’s humiliation and France’s tendency to impound vehicles.

https://thenewswheel.com/some-of-the-harshest-dui-punishments-around-the-world/

Just something to consider.   I've lost two friends to drunk drivers, I don't wish to lose any more.

Rams

[Serk]

I realize this will put me in the minority here, but I still strongly believe we should punish outcomes, not circumstances  and should totally legalize drunk driving.....

It doesn't matter if someone was sober, drunk, stoned or any other issue, if they caused the death or injury of another person they should be charged with murder or assault, but their condition at the time shouldn't enter into it.....

Having said that, this eastern European gentleman trying to take a breathlyzer always cracks me up....

[F6Dave]

I'm in agreement with Serk.  Several years ago I was on the local town council, and I'll never forget our police chief (technically the Town Marshall) bragging about how much money his department made from a DUI arrest.  Sadly over recent decades state and local governments discovered that the guy driving home from a ballgame after drinking 3 beers could make the government some serious money, while the burglar or vandal would cost them.  The BAC levels have been lowered to the point where 2 drinks will get some people arrested.  Those people are NOT the problem.

[scooperhsd]

I hardly ever drink at all anymore, and NEVER when I'm on 2 wheels (did that once in college during summer session (with future wife) - I did not like the loss of control on 2 wheels, so not only I don't drink and ride - I don't let my passenger either).

In the USA - Florida has the stiffest penalties that I know about (wife and me both had gotten a FL driver's license and you had to know the penalties for DUI as well as "normal questions" AND a driving test (even if you had a valid license from another state)).

In practicality - about the only to stop a suspended license driver from driving is to literally put them in jail.

[old2soon]

        I've ALWAYS believed that drunk drivers here in The U S of A are mollycoddled. First offense $25000.00 fine lose your car and driving privleges for 5 years. 2nd offense $75000.00 fine jail 15 years. Give me some time I'll come up with a lulu for 3d offense. Personally much like drugs I Believe drunk driving is a sickness that folks just seem to laugh off-til someone they know or are related to dies by someone to intoxicated to function anywhere much less behind the wheel of a motor vehicle. And should they be caught driving while suspended straight to the slam fer a LONG stretch. Growing up I witnessed L E Os escorting a drunk home with No repercussions. Cuz the L E O knew the man and he was a good ol boy. How many more must die from D U I/D W I Before we do anything? RIDE SAFE.

[sandy]

In the US Virgin Islands, you can drink and drive. Toast the cops as you drive by; no problem. If you have an accident and you’ve been drinking; Kati bar the door. They hang you.

[The emperor has no clothes]

I realize this will put me in the minority here, but I still strongly believe we should punish outcomes, not circumstances  and should totally legalize drunk driving.....

I have no idea if you are in the minority here, or not. But I do know, that might be, no most definitely is, the craziest proposal I've seen you post.  (and I've seen you post some pretty wacky ones)

[Jess from VA]

In practical terms, most states now have a schedule of statutory DUIs with increased penalties for 2d and subsequent offenses (generally, 3d offenses become medium serious felonies).  However, it takes work and research to discover previous offenses and properly charge them, so the vast majority of 2d and subsequent offenses are all charged as first offenses (with only first offense penalties available).  Only if you kill or maim people do they take the time to do the homework.  And if you pay the big bucks for a hometown shyster, he'll get you a plea bargain to a 1st offense anyway.

It's over 30 years ago now, but all of my brother's 7 DUIs were charged as first offenses (by age 30).  He never had any accidents and never injured himself or anyone else.  And this is not counting the half dozen times the cops brought him to my house and let him off the hook.  He only had to go to jail for the last one, and that is what made him stop drinking for life.  I had been telling my parents they were his enablers, ponying up money and lawyers for him.  It's what loving parents do.  I told them he needed to go to jail, and he finally did, and it might have saved his (or other people's) life.  

I once saw a guy who had a breathalyzer machine hooked up to his car to get it started (mandated DUI punishment) use an aquarium pump to start his car.  And he was all beered up at the time, and laughing.

Coronavirus no-cops-anywhere-for-months aside, I think much of motor vehicle moving violation enforcement has more to do with revenue generation than public safety, but DUI is more than a moving violation, and repeat offenders need to walk for the rest of their lives.  The death and dismemberment is too well documented for 100 years.  And motorcycle riders are especially at risk.  

I also rarely have any alcohol anymore, and I have not driven or ridden after even one beer for some 20 years.  I'm out of practice and get stupid on two beers.   And I also have a permit and am often armed, and that goes with drinking and driving like a fish needs a bicycle.         

[Robert]

I don't drink at all, and find its something that is unnecessary and have seen it ruin many lives. It has nothing to do with a moral decision and everything to do with, it contributes very little good, and its costly in many ways.

With that said The first timer should not get a heavy penalty so the state can make money from this. But the second time jail time and suspension of license for a time should be required. Along with the psych eval and some education.

Anyone can be on a bender and have one time, but once warned and they still do it there is a problem that needs to be solved before someone gets killed.

I kind of know where Serk is going on his statement but when people have a problem in their lives, often they don't deal with it and it plays out on everyone who does right in their own lives.

Inflicting someones out of control life on someone else who is living right seems the  epitome of unfairness.

As Rams stated drug offenders are now considered protected and there are halfway houses that are in good neighborhoods. The damage they cause due to theft, car accidents, unsafe neighborhoods and a host of other problems is crap that they should be protected.

The people around them did not choose to do drugs or drink their lives into oblivion and should not be subjected to the results of someone elses problems.

[cookiedough]

quit sending all the drunks to WI please.

I just read locally the old guy in Monroe WI nearby where I live got arrested for 7th WI drunk driving offense and denied bail.    Am actually surprised they denied bail not just letting him go with yet another slap on the wrist.      ONLY ONCE have I seen someone cross the center line severely 4 feet over into my lane coming at me while me on the cycle heading toward him.  NOT good.  I hugged the right side white lane to avoid a head on collision. 

[Beardo]

I’m all for zero tolerance on drinking and driving. If you’ve had a drink, you don’t drive. Simple. No more “I’m ok to drive, I’ve only had xx drinks”.  I don’t give a crap what you’re celebrating or that you want a glass of wine with your meal at the restaurant. Someone in your group doesn’t drink, that simple.

First offence...$5000 fine. Any more offences...jail time.

When you tell your teenagers to not drink and drive, do you tell them...it’s ok as long as you’ve only had x number of drinks?  Or do you say...arrange a DD or call me if you’ve had anything to drink?

[Robert]

You know while we have this topic there is something as bad, texting and driving or just on your phones. What about this?

[Sorcerer]

On December 8 1985 I made a decision that I could no longer drink and do illegal drugs. From my first drinking experience at around age 12 until age 30 1/2 when I drank I was going to drink until I passed out or I had exhausted my supply. There was no thought process for me once I started. I was very lucky, no DUI/DWIs, on accidents, no interaction with law enforcement because of alcohol or drugs. I would drive, bikes, cars drunk and at times in A blackout. However it was a life crisis that prompted my decision to no longer drink or drug. I was not a heavy drinker or problem drinker. If your not an alcoholic you will never understand what it means to not be able stop once the drinking started. I could have had DUI/ DWIs most any time I was on the road. As a side note, my first summer sober I was at a bike rally with some one I had ridden with for 5 years when he said “ya know I just thought you had a speech impediment”.

[Jess from VA]

In my brief 3 year private practice (40 years ago), I did domestic relations work most, and DUI defense 2d most (hundreds).  I never had one innocent man/woman (or even a good case to try to win even if they were guilty).  

Question:  What did the defendant do when you pulled him over?

Officer:  Well he stopped and got out of his car (back in those days), and his pants fell down, and as he reached down to pull them back up, his car started driving away because he left it in Drive, and I had to run after it and jump in and stop it before it ran into something/someone.  (true story)

The vast majority were 1st offenses (with or without a simple moving violation of some kind), but not reckless driving or fleeing, and no accident or injury, and no astronomically high blood alcohol test, and no fighting with or disrespecting the police, and no puking on his shoes or in the back seat of the cruiser (that really pisses them off), and no other bad driving or criminal record of any kind.

In MI (back then, who knows now) I could get a plea bargain down to impaired driving (from drunk driving; a lesser included offense), with a lesser penalty and points.  There was a medium hefty fine, and maybe some probation, and points, but no jail or loss of license, and a serious lecture about if you were ever in that courtroom again for DUI (and the judges meant it).  They did not get hammered by the sentence and they didn't deserve to be.  

I think most people who get one, never get another one.  But I had 4-5 guys who got a 2d DUI arrest before the court date on the 1st one.  (Worrying about the first one down at the bar drinking, again).  Not good.  (So, Mr Jones, do you own a bicycle?)

[scooperhsd]

In my brief 3 year private practice (40 years ago), I did domestic relations work most, and DUI defense 2d most (hundreds).  I never had one innocent man/woman (or even a good case to try to win even if they were guilty). 

Question:  What did the defendant do when you pulled him over?

Officer:  Well he stopped and got out of his car (back in those days), and his pants fell down, and as he reached down to pull them back up, his car started driving away because he left it in Drive, and I had to run after it and jump in and stop it before it ran into something/someone.   (true story)

The vast majority were 1st offenses (with or without a simple moving violation of some kind), but not reckless driving or fleeing, and no accident or injury, and no astronomically high blood alcohol test, and no fighting with or disrespecting the police, and no puking on his shoes or in the back seat of the cruiser (that really pisses them off), and no other bad driving or criminal record of any kind.

In MI (back then, who knows now) I could get a plea bargain down to impaired driving (from drunk driving; a lesser included offense), with a lesser penalty and points.  There was a medium hefty fine, and maybe some probation, and points, but no jail or loss of license, and a serious lecture about if you were ever in that courtroom again for DUI (and the judges meant it).  They did not get hammered by the sentence and they didn't deserve to be. 

I think most people who get one, never get another one.  But I had 4-5 guys who got a 2d DUI arrest before the court date on the 1st one.  (Worrying about the first one down at the bar drinking, again).  Not good.  (So, Mr Jones, do you own a bicycle?)

The "under 30MPH" mopeds are popular for people who have lost their driver's license for various reasons....

[scooperhsd]

You know while we have this topic there is something as bad, texting and driving or just on your phones. What about this?

I'm not sure which scares me more - a drunk / impaired driver or someone doing texting while driving - especially while I'm riding !!!!

It goes without saying that I do not send texts while driving (although I will read them usually on the GPS). My passenger is free to do whatever in a car. Haven't had a MC passenger since texting became popular.

Most jurisdictions will let you phone in some fashion - I prefer to use Bluetooth handless if I'm driving (in the 2015 Golf the car has it builtin, in my 2000 New Beetle  it's part of the GPS).  And some jurisdictions REQUIRE some sort of handless  operation for phones for the driver. I try to keep my conversations to a minimum and don't initiate the call unless stopped. There is a reduced awareness factor going on with voice, but it is not as bad as texting, IMO.

[F6Dave]

Bars and restaurants serve alcohol.  Sporting venues serve alcohol.  Every single day (pre/post COVID) MILLIONS of people will have a few beers at a ball game, split a bottle of wine at dinner (that's 2 1/2 drinks each), or consume alcohol in some other public establishment, then drive home.  In the vast majority of cases their driving skills are not measurably affected.  They'll arrive home without hurting themselves or anyone else.

However, in many states the legal BAC limit has been set so low that you can be arrested for DUI after consuming one or two drinks.  Some here are suggesting that these 'criminals' should receive a harsher sentence than is given to most rapists, or even some murderers.

The problem is with people who habitually drive drunk, with a high BAC where accidents statistically increase.  Setting the BAC limit so low that it becomes illegal to have 2 beers at a ball game is about as dumb as setting interstate highway speed limits at 35 MPH.

Be careful what you wish for.  Many of the legislators pushing for draconian alcohol limits for motorists also want far greater restrictions on motorcyclists.

[cookiedough]

In my brief 3 year private practice (40 years ago), I did domestic relations work most, and DUI defense 2d most (hundreds).  I never had one innocent man/woman (or even a good case to try to win even if they were guilty). 

Question:  What did the defendant do when you pulled him over?

Officer:  Well he stopped and got out of his car (back in those days), and his pants fell down, and as he reached down to pull them back up, his car started driving away because he left it in Drive, and I had to run after it and jump in and stop it before it ran into something/someone.   (true story)

The vast majority were 1st offenses (with or without a simple moving violation of some kind), but not reckless driving or fleeing, and no accident or injury, and no astronomically high blood alcohol test, and no fighting with or disrespecting the police, and no puking on his shoes or in the back seat of the cruiser (that really pisses them off), and no other bad driving or criminal record of any kind.

In MI (back then, who knows now) I could get a plea bargain down to impaired driving (from drunk driving; a lesser included offense), with a lesser penalty and points.  There was a medium hefty fine, and maybe some probation, and points, but no jail or loss of license, and a serious lecture about if you were ever in that courtroom again for DUI (and the judges meant it).  They did not get hammered by the sentence and they didn't deserve to be. 

I think most people who get one, never get another one.  But I had 4-5 guys who got a 2d DUI arrest before the court date on the 1st one.  (Worrying about the first one down at the bar drinking, again).  Not good.  (So, Mr Jones, do you own a bicycle?)

The "under 30MPH" mopeds are popular for people who have lost their driver's license for various reasons....

yep,  never stopped my dad's buddy Jerome from driving 15 miles doing 30 mph top speed on rural country roads to go visit my dad when both were alive and come in drunker than a skunk,  have a half bottle of hardcore brandy with my dad at our house,  then he would stumble on out of the kitchen driving his 50cc moped back home 15 country miles.  My dad drank, but not like Jerome, he was a daily drunk alcoholic daily for as long as I knew him. 

[GiG]

... However, in many states the legal BAC limit has been set so low that you can be arrested for DUI after consuming one or two drinks.  Some here are suggesting that these 'criminals' should receive a harsher sentence than is given to most rapists, or even some murderers...

.08 nationwide - all states - federal mandate  

[vanagon40]

.08 nationwide - all states - federal mandate  

The federal mandate is the maxium; states are free to set lower limits (e.g., UTAH 0.05)

[F6Dave]

.08 nationwide - all states - federal mandate  

The federal mandate is the maxium; states are free to set lower limits (e.g., UTAH 0.05)

Same here in Colorado at .05 percent.  Some states have lowered it to .02 percent.

It's not actually a federal mandate, as the constitution doesn't allow that.  The feds withhold part of a state's highway funds if they don't comply.  This scheme began years ago when the feds told the states to raise the drinking age to 21.  Wyoming had a drinking age of 19.  They sued the feds, but lost in the US supreme court.  Personally I think it's ridiculous that you can vote, join the military, carry an M16, and even die in battle, but the government won't let you drink a beer.

[F6Dave]

Here's an interesting story about drinking and driving.  Several decades ago Car and Driver magazine ran an article on the subject.  They decided to do a real world experiment, and have driving enthusiasts and a few professional race drivers run timed laps on a road course after a drinking.  They timed the drivers sober, then after each drink, stopping at three of four as I remember.  Most people posted slower times after a few drinks, which could have been due to impairment or extra caution.  But one professional Trans Am driver consistently posted faster lap times after two drinks.

To their credit Car and Driver accurately posted the results.  I'm not sure that would happen in the PC, litigious world of today.

[Rams]

However, in many states the legal BAC limit has been set so low that you can be arrested for DUI after consuming one or two drinks.  Some here are suggesting that these 'criminals' should receive a harsher sentence than is given to most rapists, or even some murderers.

The problem is with people who habitually drive drunk, with a high BAC where accidents statistically increase.  Setting the BAC limit so low that it becomes illegal to have 2 beers at a ball game is about as dumb as setting interstate highway speed limits at 35 MPH.

Be careful what you wish for.  Many of the legislators pushing for draconian alcohol limits for motorists also want far greater restrictions on motorcyclists.

You make a good point, my response would be that rapist and murders don't get nearly what they should receive.   No doubt their crime is far worse than driving under the influence.   At least until one of our loved ones is the victim of that drunk driver.   I don't pretend to have the answers, if I did I'd be running for office.  

Rams

[vanagon40]

Here's an interesting story about drinking and driving.  Several decades ago Car and Driver magazine ran an article on the subject.  They decided to do a real world experiment, and have driving enthusiasts and a few professional race drivers run timed laps on a road course after a drinking.  They timed the drivers sober, then after each drink, stopping at three of four as I remember.  Most people posted slower times after a few drinks, which could have been due to impairment or extra caution.  But one professional Trans Am driver consistently posted faster lap times after two drinks.

To their credit Car and Driver accurately posted the results.  I'm not sure that would happen in the PC, litigious world of today.

I seem to recall the same results (faster laps) with an experiment for motorcycle riders. I think the explanation was:

STONE COLD SOBER: Wow, that is sharp turn, I better slow down.

ONE OR TWO DRINKS: Hold my beer and watch this--I can take that turn at 60 mph.

The impairment after a small amount of alcohol was not enough to offset the increased bravado.

More than a minimal amount of alcohol, the riders could barely complete the course.

[Jess from VA]

Another aspect of DUI is field sobriety testing.  (Often funny stuff)

I've been out of the business for a long time, but I think they still do them as additional evidence (subjective) to breath testing (scientific - objective).

Some folks do very poorly even with no alcohol in them at all.  

I once passed all of them, but the cop still wanted me to follow him to the station for a breath test.  So I popped a hand stand, walked the length of my car, pivoted around and walked back the length of my car, and kipped back up to my feet.  On the side of I-75 with traffic blowing by.  The cop was impressed, and let me go.  I had a couple beers in me, and wasn't sure if I would pass a breath test or not.

I remember thinking folks driving by seeing me walking on my hands were thinking.... man those tests are getting ridiculous.

The other dead giveaway (in court) was when the cop testified the defendant could only sing his ABCs, and he couldn't do them without singing.  

But for the life of me, I could never spell WORLD backwards, even sober.

The best bit on driving better drunk was Johnny Fever on WKRP in Cincinnati.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXjhJ2vAWng

[Beardo]

Another aspect of DUI is field sobriety testing.  (Often funny stuff)

But for the life of me, I could never spell WORLD backwards, even sober.

Yeah, I’ve seen some on the police shows where they ask you to start at Z and go backwards, skipping every 3rd letter.

Pretty sure that would take me at least an hour stone sober.

I wonder if that’s what they’re wanting people to say...”I can’t even do that SOBER”. Busted. 

[vanagon40]

Field sobriety testing is pretty much standardized in Indiana (and maybe other jurisdictions now). One leg stand (count to 30); walk a straight line (invisible); and horizontal gaze nystagmus. The first two test are almost impossible to pass, as the grading starts during the "instruction phase." If the subject fails to follow any two aspects of the instructions (including, for example, not standing with feet together while the officer explains the test), it is a failure. So a subject could be instructed to stand with feet together and do not begin until instructed, take nine steps starting with the right foot, pivot and return taking nine step. If the person stood with feet apart during the instructions and started with the left foot, he would fail, even if he walked a perfect heel to toe straight line. The horizontal gaze nystagmus test is very subjective.

Failing the field sobriety tests provides probable cause for the chemical test. The failures are also admissible at trial. I understand the first two--a juror could conclude that a person who failed manual dexterity tests might be intoxicated. But the third is also admissible in Indiana, without expert testimony. I fail to understand how a juror could relate involuntary jerking of the eyes to intoxication, without the aid of expert testimony.

ASIDE: My standard advice to everyone--if you are stopped for any reason and the officer asks how much you have had to drink, NEVER respond "two beers," even if that is the absolute truth. Every drunk driver the officer has arrested has had "two beers, officer." Three beers over two hours; four beers over three hours; two and a half beers (I had to dump the last half as it got warm); a 12 ounce Bud and a pint of Guinness; anything but "two beers."