Front brakes

[Jersey mike]

Ok, so earlier today I was lit for a ride, at one point I had to apply the front brake pretty hard but not too hard.

About a 1/2 mile later at a stoplight when coming to a stop the brake lever was very hard and the brakes were very touchy...sensitive. After about 5 or 6 traffic lights and several stops I pulled over to check the rotors to see of a pad or caliper hung up. Rotors were basically cool. Pads are in good shape and the brake fluid is clean and clear. I was out for a few hours with lots of braking, using the fronts and there was no smell of brakes rubbing.

Am I looking at a possible master cylinder?

Any ideas?

Thanks..I appreciate any feedback.

[WintrSol]

For starters, I'd check the pressure relief hole between the reservoir and master cylinder. If it is blocked, the fluid can't return to the res, and pressure can build up, keeping the pads closer to the rotors, and eventually, making them drag.

[Jersey mike]

For starters, I'd check the pressure relief hole between the reservoir and master cylinder. If it is blocked, the fluid can't return to the res, and pressure can build up, keeping the pads closer to the rotors, and eventually, making them drag.

Inside the reservoir on the handle bars?

Is an awl good or a stiff wire better to break up any build up?

[WintrSol]

For starters, I'd check the pressure relief hole between the reservoir and master cylinder. If it is blocked, the fluid can't return to the res, and pressure can build up, keeping the pads closer to the rotors, and eventually, making them drag.

Inside the reservoir on the handle bars?

Is an awl good or a stiff wire better to break up any build up?

The hole is pretty small, and needs to stay that way, so a thin wire from a brush would be best, IMO. Brass, if you have one.

[98valk]

Colder/cooler temps makes the lever firmer compared to warmer temps. if you got the brakes hot today with some hard stops from 60+ mph, the fluid would have gotten hotter and a softer lever is the result.

I use DOT 4 LV, which gives a firmer feel through wider temp changes.

[Jersey mike]

For starters, I'd check the pressure relief hole between the reservoir and master cylinder. If it is blocked, the fluid can't return to the res, and pressure can build up, keeping the pads closer to the rotors, and eventually, making them drag.

Inside the reservoir on the handle bars?

Is an awl good or a stiff wire better to break up any build up?

The hole is pretty small, and needs to stay that way, so a thin wire from a brush would be best, IMO. Brass, if you have one.

So I’m right, in the reservoir on handlebars?

Should there be or should I expect any resistance when clearing the hole with the wire or should it just push through smoothly once the blockage is cleared?

[Jersey mike]

Colder/cooler temps makes the lever firmer compared to warmer temps. if you got the brakes hot today with some hard stops from 60+ mph, the fluid would have gotten hotter and a softer lever is the result.

I use DOT 4 LV, which gives a firmer feel through wider temp changes.

Are you suggesting a full system bleed and replacement? Or just topping off with DOT4 LV?

The current fluid is only 3yrs old, maybe 3000 miles.

[WintrSol]

So I’m right, in the reservoir on handlebars?

Should there be or should I expect any resistance when clearing the hole with the wire or should it just push through smoothly once the blockage is cleared?

Yes, that is the only reservoir for the front brakes. Usually just pushing the wire through the hole will clear it, but if a blockage did cause it, it just went into the MC. A good flush may push it out the bleeder at the caliper. BTW, do you still have the original brake lines? They do wear out over time, and 20 years is more than enough time.

98Valk is correct, if you brake hard enough, long enough, the brakes will start to get soft, assuming they are releasing the fluid pressure through the relief hole. What I'm proposing is that you put just enough heat into the fluid to build the pressure in the lines against any relief blockage, but not enough to make the brakes drag; that increase in pressure is why there's a relief hole. If there is pressure remaining in the lines, just opening a bleeder before trying to clear the hole - with a hose attached - will let it out.

The only other thing I can think of right now is the piston seals in the calipers have gone stiff, and aren't retracting the pads enough, so you have less movement in the lever before the brakes are applied. If clearing the hole doesn't help, that would be my next guess.

[98valk]

Colder/cooler temps makes the lever firmer compared to warmer temps. if you got the brakes hot today with some hard stops from 60+ mph, the fluid would have gotten hotter and a softer lever is the result.

I use DOT 4 LV, which gives a firmer feel through wider temp changes.

Are you suggesting a full system bleed and replacement? Or just topping off with DOT4 LV?

The current fluid is only 3yrs old, maybe 3000 miles.

most DOT 4 is only good for 2-3yrs, two yrs if in high humidity area, your are the shore, 3 yrs if using SS brake lines. brake fluid absorbs moisture right from the air thru the brake lines and calipers. And it actually absorbs moisture right thru the plastic bottle it is in while sitting on the shelf.  some companies still use metal cans for that reason. I've been using Pentosin LV from Napa, it comes in metal cans except for the plastic cap.

using the highest Wet boiling point allows longer use than 2-3 yrs.
DOT 4 LV which I use, has a higher wet point than regular DOT 4 which should be good for 3-5 yrs, again depending in humidity.

Ignore dry boiling point, it is only needed to be known for race track conditions, mean nothing for street use.
All brake fluid is synthetic, even if it doesn't say it.

https://www.lelandwest.com/brake-fluid-comparison-chart.cfm

[mello dude]

Thanks for the brake fluid chart! 

[Jersey mike]

Thanks for the feedback fellas, I really appreciate your time.

I’ll look into new brake lines next spring but want to clear out the blockage issue as soon as I can, there’s still some fall days left.

What’s the best way of bleeding it solo?

Right side first/ left side first, both at once?

[mello dude]

What’s the best way of bleeding it solo?

Right side first/ left side first, both at once?

I'm also interested in this - I am finding getting a solid bleed job elusive.
Typically I like to put bleed containers on both sides and use Speed Bleeders.
I started with the left side first because it's the longest circuit and then moved to right.
Been going back and forth on each side. I even did some reverse bleeding on the left side.
I have the Mityvac vacuum tool, the Motion Pro check valve in line thing and a big syringe....
I think air gets trapped in that middle pipe in the lines.......

[Pluggy]

Left in a bike too long, fluid can start to gel.  Years ago, the rear brake on my 1980 Honda locked up and turned the rotor hot red.  Upon disassembly, fluid in the master cylinder was not particularly fluid.  We see the fluid in the reservoir and think it looks OK, but the the problem is unseen.

Honda says change brake fluid every two years.  And that's the advice for a brand new bike.  Speed Bleeders make the job easy, so why not?  Most guys will bleed the brake with the longest hose first.

[mello dude]

What’s the best way of bleeding it solo?

Right side first/ left side first, both at once?

I'm also interested in this - I am finding getting a solid bleed job elusive.
Typically I like to put bleed containers on both sides and use speed bleeders.
I started with the left side first because it's the longest circuit and then moved to right.
Been going back and forth on each side. I even did some reverse bleeding on the left side.
I have the Mityvac vacuum tool, the Motion Pro check valve in line thing and a big syringe....
I think air gets trapped in that middle pipe in the lines.......

Have you inspected the components in the master cylinder?

I was wondering whether to just go ahead and do the rebuild on the m/c. The bike has been down at least 4 years, so the m/c has been dry all the while. Same with the clutch. .. the rear firmed up nicely.
Been comparing the front lever feel to my VFR and the viffers is a rock, while the Valkyrie is mush...
----Jeez, m/c rebuild kits prices are all over the map...the GL1800 is like $15 and the Valkyrie is like $40..huh?

[WintrSol]

Until I got my Motive PowerBleeder, my method was:
1: turn the bars hard left with the bike also tillted left, so the MC exit (banjo fitting) is lower than the rest
2: suck all the old fluid from the reservoir and clean if needed, taking care not to move the lever
3: fill the reservoir about 2/3 full
4: turn the bars hard right, so the bleeder on the left caliper is the highest point
5: arrange myself to I can squeeze the lever and open-close the bleeder before the lever stops moving
6: repeat 5 until the fluid runs clear
7: turn the bars hard left, repeat 5

While doing this, check the reservoir, keeping the level about 2/3 full

With the Power bleeder, I still do steps 1 and 2, skip to 4, and bleed the left, then 7 and bleed the right.

When done, I will turn the bars left again, then *slowly* (count of 10) squeeze the lever until it stops and hold it for about 10-20 seconds. Then, let it snap back. Repeat until there is no feeling of air in the banjo fitting. Any air left in should rise through the left/right junction to the banjo, and letting the lever snap back will push that air back into the MC. It can take several cycles, if you trapped much air in the lines.

[Ricky-D]

Ok, so earlier today I was lit for a ride, at one point I had to apply the front brake pretty hard but not too hard.

About a 1/2 mile later at a stoplight when coming to a stop the brake lever was very hard and the brakes were very touchy...sensitive. After about 5 or 6 traffic lights and several stops I pulled over to check the rotors to see of a pad or caliper hung up. Rotors were basically cool. Pads are in good shape and the brake fluid is clean and clear. I was out for a few hours with lots of braking, using the fronts and there was no smell of brakes rubbing.

Am I looking at a possible master cylinder?

Any ideas?

Thanks..I appreciate any feedback.

I don't know what others are getting from this but to me it sounds like what every Valkyrie rider would like their brakes to behave.

What's the problem?

Too sensitive brakes ???

Cool running rotors ???

No smell from overheating brakes ???

I don't get it ?

[98valk]

What’s the best way of bleeding it solo?

Right side first/ left side first, both at once?

I'm also interested in this - I am finding getting a solid bleed job elusive.
Typically I like to put bleed containers on both sides and use speed bleeders.
I started with the left side first because it's the longest circuit and then moved to right.
Been going back and forth on each side. I even did some reverse bleeding on the left side.
I have the Mityvac vacuum tool, the Motion Pro check valve in line thing and a big syringe....
I think air gets trapped in that middle pipe in the lines.......

Have you inspected the components in the master cylinder?

I was wondering whether to just go ahead and do the rebuild on the m/c. The bike has been down at least 4 years, so the m/c has been dry all the while. Same with the clutch. .. the rear firmed up nicely.
Been comparing the front lever feel to my VFR and the viffers is a rock, while the Valkyrie is mush...
----Jeez, m/c rebuild kits prices are all over the map...the GL1800 is like $15 and the Valkyrie is like $40..huh?

Put DOT 4 LV in and it will have a firm handle.

don't compare m/c's due to different internal valving as was designed for that particular motorcycle.

[Jersey mike]

Ok, so earlier today I was lit for a ride, at one point I had to apply the front brake pretty hard but not too hard.

About a 1/2 mile later at a stoplight when coming to a stop the brake lever was very hard and the brakes were very touchy...sensitive. After about 5 or 6 traffic lights and several stops I pulled over to check the rotors to see of a pad or caliper hung up. Rotors were basically cool. Pads are in good shape and the brake fluid is clean and clear. I was out for a few hours with lots of braking, using the fronts and there was no smell of brakes rubbing.

Am I looking at a possible master cylinder?

Any ideas?

Thanks..I appreciate any feedback.

I don't know what others are getting from this but to me it sounds like what every Valkyrie rider would like their brakes to behave.

What's the problem?

Too sensitive brakes ???

Cool running rotors ???

No smell from overheating brakes ???

I don't get it ?

Something suddenly changed and never returned to as it previously operated. The brake lever wasn’t mushy or loose feeling it was “perfect” with a nice even pull and application of the front brakes was steady as more pressure was applied to the lever. Now the lever is very firm, brakes respond very touchy with real quick response even on a light touch with noticeable nose dive that’s not as usual. Something is “off”. I don’t know how else to explain it.

[mello dude]

Until I got my Motive PowerBleeder, my method was:
1: turn the bars hard left with the bike also tillted left, so the MC exit (banjo fitting) is lower than the rest
2: suck all the old fluid from the reservoir and clean if needed, taking care not to move the lever
3: fill the reservoir about 2/3 full
4: turn the bars hard right, so the bleeder on the left caliper is the highest point
5: arrange myself to I can squeeze the lever and open-close the bleeder before the lever stops moving
6: repeat 5 until the fluid runs clear
7: turn the bars hard left, repeat 5

While doing this, check the reservoir, keeping the level about 2/3 full

With the Power bleeder, I still do steps 1 and 2, skip to 4, and bleed the left, then 7 and bleed the right.

Is getting the Power Bleeder worth it? Link to the one you have?
Bleeding brakes/clutch is a task I hate, you can work at it several times and not make progress.
Thxz

[jmint]

For starters, I'd check the pressure relief hole between the reservoir and master cylinder. If it is blocked, the fluid can't return to the res, and pressure can build up, keeping the pads closer to the rotors, and eventually, making them drag.

Do you have a picture of this?  is there also a pressure relief hole on the rear?

[WintrSol]

Is getting the Power Bleeder worth it? Link to the one you have?
Bleeding brakes/clutch is a task I hate, you can work at it several times and not make progress.
Thxz

I guess that depends on how many vehicles you have to bleed - I have four, with a total of 12 calipers and three clutches - and what your budget is. I got this one, with some accessory adapters. One I had to carve up to fit my wife's Pontiac Vibe: https://www.motiveproducts.com/collections/import-power-bleeder-kits/products/0100-european-bleeder. With the power bleeder, as long as you are careful not to introduce air, it goes really fast. Setup takes longer than the bleed process, even with four wheel cylinders to do.

[WintrSol]

For starters, I'd check the pressure relief hole between the reservoir and master cylinder. If it is blocked, the fluid can't return to the res, and pressure can build up, keeping the pads closer to the rotors, and eventually, making them drag.

Do you have a picture of this?  is there also a pressure relief hole on the rear?

When you look into the reservoir, assuming the fluid is clean enough, it is easy to spot. I would assume the rear has one, too, for the same reason as the front, though I've never looked for it. The reservoir connects remotely, though, so getting to a relief hole would require dismantling it.

Note that the clutch reservoir has one, too.

[mello dude]

Is getting the Power Bleeder worth it? Link to the one you have?
Bleeding brakes/clutch is a task I hate, you can work at it several times and not make progress.
Thxz

I guess that depends on how many vehicles you have to bleed - I have four, with a total of 12 calipers and three clutches - and what your budget is. I got this one, with some accessory adapters. One I had to carve up to fit my wife's Pontiac Vibe: https://www.motiveproducts.com/collections/import-power-bleeder-kits/products/0100-european-bleeder. With the power bleeder, as long as you are careful not to introduce air, it goes really fast. Setup takes longer than the bleed process, even with four wheel cylinders to do.

Ever reverse bleed with one? You would have to watch the m/c reservoir closely so it doesnt over flow..

[98valk]

[/quote]

Something suddenly changed and never returned to as it previously operated. The brake lever wasn’t mushy or loose feeling it was “perfect” with a nice even pull and application of the front brakes was steady as more pressure was applied to the lever. Now the lever is very firm, brakes respond very touchy with real quick response even on a light touch with noticeable nose dive that’s not as usual. Something is “off”. I don’t know how else to explain it.
[/quote]

could be caliper partially seize either due to a piston not fully retracting or caliper pins are partially frozen.

first thing I would do is pull calibers from disks and see if u can fully retract the pistons. u will need the m/c cover off, so push the pistons slowly.

[..]

Speed bleeder could be your friend

http://www.speedbleeder.com/

[WintrSol]

Ever reverse bleed with one? You would have to watch the m/c reservoir closely so it doesnt over flow..

Interesting idea. It does use standard fittings, so an adapter could be made. You'd have to be careful with the pressure, so as not to blow it off the bleeder. I'll keep that idea in reserve, in case I need a reverse bleed.

[Ricky-D]

Something suddenly changed and never returned to as it previously operated. The brake lever wasn’t mushy or loose feeling it was “perfect” with a nice even pull and application of the front brakes was steady as more pressure was applied to the lever. Now the lever is very firm, brakes respond very touchy with real quick response even on a light touch with noticeable nose dive that’s not as usual. Something is “off”. I don’t know how else to explain it.

Ok, I understand what your concern is now.

Your brakes seem to be acting like power brakes all of a sudden.

Since you are not seeing high temperatures at the rotors would indicate there's no continuous pressure from the pads pressing against the rotor while you're running.

This would mean there is no problem from the master cylinder, anything related to the master cylinder or the brake lines.

The problem lay with the caliper.

Since the brakes are acting like power brakes then, the pads necessarily must be moving in a self applying movement when you apply pressure with the lever.

This would then indicate to me that there is some kind of looseness regarding the pads and the caliper that would allow this to happen.

It would have to be either that, or there is a stickiness between the pads and the rotors.  I mainly feel it's a looseness issue with the pads.

Maybe you have recently done a brake job on the front brakes and there is a problem with the reassembly or something has become loose.

That is where I would concentrate my attention.

At the calipers and the pads and the assembly.

[Gryphon Rider]

I'm completely speculating here.  Could it be that many miles of only light braking had polished the pads, making them gradually less sensitive, but doing the hard stop removed the polished pad surface, allowing fresh pad material to contact the rotor?

I would inspect they brake system for the possible causes noted above, then if everything checks out, ride it without worry.

[CoreyP]

Couple of thoughts. These are well worth the money. http://www.speedbleeder.com/

I change brake fluid every two years or if starts turning color. It's cheap and easy to do, why screw around with old brake fluid. I quart is what $8?  If you are riding hard the fluid will burn over time and be less effective. Let it sit there long enough and it will turn into a gel.

I know on other bikes Honda says change the rubber diaphragm every time you change the fluid. I don't do that but if that part starts looking degraded make sure you change that out with a new one. It will spread little particles around your brake system, maybe clog something up. Those are like $15 which I don't really know why they cost that much but they do.

I'm kind of leaning to the brake calipers may need a rebuild as far as this post. Probably worth taking them off and cleaning them real well along with lubing up the pin.