I am Curious - What would You do?

[carolinarider09]

I just noticed this news article.  Its from October 9th and maybe it was addressed somewhere else before. but I am just curious.  

What would you do if the governor of your state (and maybe others have and I just have not noticed) made the same declaration.  

Mandatory Requirements for All Gatherings

All persons planning to host or participate in a private gathering, as defined above, must comply with the following requirements. Local health jurisdictions may be more restrictive than this guidance. Refer to your local guidance for what is allowed in your area.


Gatherings that include more than 3 households are prohibited. This includes everyone present, including hosts and guests.  Remember, the smaller the number of people, the safer.

Keep the households that you interact with stable over time. By spending time with the same people, risk of transmission is reduced. Participating in multiple gatherings with different households or groups is strongly discouraged.

The host should collect names of all attendees and contact information in case contact tracing is needed later.

There are also rules about physical separation while at gatherings, and how long they should be (less than two hours).  

If the Governor of a state can decree who you can have in your home, how long they can be there and what must be worn, we have lost our freedom and I fear for our country.  

My wife was invited to a wedding this past Saturday.  The wedding was held on the edge of a gold course.  Birght sunny day.  The reception was inside.  There were about 40 to 50 attendees (maybe more but I did not count).  Only one or two persons were wearing masks.  We were seated in the normal manner with the standard folding chairs.  

Being in the age group more susceptible to the virus, we limited our stay and did not hang around for the entire reception  but still It was very eye opening.  

Edited to fix spelling error in "Subject"

[Patrick]

Apparently this is happening in some areas with arrests being made, which I find ridiculous.

[scooperhsd]

MANDATORY REQUIREMENTS ? - Go to Hell !!! I'll get you started on your trip !!

I pretty much follow them right now anyway, except I would like to see my orchestra group start meeting in full again. But I will not be TOLD to do them, surest way to get me started on the path to being a superspreader.

[Chrisj CMA]

That would make our weekly Bible study illegal but it wouldn’t stop it!

[Gryphon Rider]

Romans 13:1-5 (ESV)
Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience.

[Chrisj CMA]

Romans 13:1-5 (ESV)
Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience.

Unless such ruling authority goes against the word of God in which case I will not forsake the gathering together of Gods people in His name. There are all sorts of underground church services around the world that are technically against the law. Nice try

[G-Man]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=paqGbcVtYIk

[Gryphon Rider]

Romans 13:1-5 (ESV)
Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience.

Unless such ruling authority goes against the word of God in which case I will not forsake the gathering together of Gods people in His name. There are all sorts of underground church services around the world that are technically against the law. Nice try

You can change your private Bible study to comply with regulations either by splitting it into smaller groups or by moving it into a larger room at your church where you can have households physically distance from one another, calling it a worship service.  I am assuming that in your location group size limits for worship services are higher than for private gatherings.

Church groups that stubbornly defy regulations that make gathering less convenient but do not actually prohibit gathering are risking incurring God's judgement (per Romans 13), and discredit the name of Christ.

[carolinarider09]

Another "view"

Romans 13:1-5 (ESV)
Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience.

From the link below. 

There is one passage of scripture that needs to be rightly divided and compared to the whole will of God. These passages are widely misunderstood for various reasons and this is Romans 13:1 – 7. On the evil side of dividing the word of truth, the anti-Christian political principalities want to isolate these scriptures separating them from the rest of the bible. They hope to convince Christians not to speak the word of God in the political sphere. They do not want Christians to expose their darkness. Seculars have been largely successful and seem to know better than Christians the power of prayer and the spoken word of God because they fear it. 

........

Then to continue to believe Romans 13:1 is referring to every governing authority one must conclude that God has handed His authority over to the state. The definition of state is a politically organized body of people under a single entity. If Christians still believe this, do they draw the line between good and evil without accepting the absolute truth of God’s word as written in the bible?  They would fail to understand that if this is true, Christians are totally subject to the state and cannot rebel against it. Then the state defines the standard by which Christians have to live. This takes God out of the picture, and replaces Him with governing authorities. The 10 Commandants would have to become multiple choices.

“You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal,” becomes you shall not unless government says you shall. Then the line between good and evil can be moved to anywhere the authority wants. Like killing disabled children or the elderly as long as the state says we shall. "

"History teaches us the true evil which results from this type of biblical fallacy. We only have to look back at the state of Germany under fascism. The governing authorities ordered the German people to kill millions of Jews, Christians and others. Germany was principally Christian Lutheran and Martin Luther taught the world how to stand against an authoritarian theocracy, i.e. government. But Germans failed to influence their government and these authorities systematically killed and incinerated over 12 million men, women and children. Hitler called this the final solution. No real Christian can argue this governing authority was God instituted.”

https://www.foxholeministry.com/index.php/blog/truth-blog/part-i-romans-13-1-7-is-one-of-the-most-misunderstood-scriptures

[Chrisj CMA]

Romans 13:1-5 (ESV)
Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience.

Unless such ruling authority goes against the word of God in which case I will not forsake the gathering together of Gods people in His name. There are all sorts of underground church services around the world that are technically against the law. Nice try

You can change your private Bible study to comply with regulations either by splitting it into smaller groups or by moving it into a larger room at your church where you can have households physically distance from one another, calling it a worship service.  I am assuming that in your location group size limits for worship services are higher than for private gatherings.

Church groups that stubbornly defy regulations that make gathering less convenient but do not actually prohibit gathering are risking incurring God's judgement (per Romans 13), and discredit the name of Christ.

We cant change the fact that our small group meets at our home has members of more than one church and is always more than the allotted households..  You and I will just have to agree to disagree on this one

[Robert]

Rodney Howard Brown was arrested and released for holding church services indoors, so now he holds them outside.

I am with you on this Chris, since there are many including Moses that went against the prevailing authority. Jesus Himself did not listen to the authority of the time either, what would you say to Him?
did they incur Gods wrath?

I would also mention it seems the predominately Dem controlled cities that have these draconian rules. Maybe the virus is only in these cities?


carolinarider09

Very good response

[Oss]

Do not post about any planned violation of unconstitutional edicts. Anything you say or write can be used.....

If a tree falls in the woods and nobody is there to hear it , is  there is no sound ?

You can have peaceful protest of any number according to antifa so be advised accordingly

[carolinarider09]

Do not post about any planned violation of unconstitutional edicts. Anything you say or write can be used.....

If a tree falls in the woods and nobody is there to hear it , is  there is no sound ?

You can have peaceful protest of any number according to antifa so be advised accordingly

You know OSS, I never ever considered that and I should have. 

Maybe it was a stretch, maybe it was coincidence, maybe it was fate, but just after this virus posting started I did some research on past pandemics and compared the Honk Kong Flu to the current China Virus.  Even referenced the Summer of Love (at least that is my memory says). 

A few days later a very similar post was made by a major (as memory serves) newspaper.  I remarked at the time that it might well be that boards like ours are monitored for data and thoughts and opinions.   

Today, one can never know. 

[The emperor has no clothes]

 I remarked at the time that it might well be that boards like ours are monitored for data and thoughts and opinions.   

Today, one can never know. 

You can be pretty well assured that media, politicians, think tanks aren't mining the ramblings here for any cohesive ideas. 

[carolinarider09]

Really.  No one of any consequence views or sifts through the data and information presented here. 

Why not.  All you have to do is to write an appropriate algorithm looking for specific words and phrases and have the computer do the analysis as to the number of times they pop up, when they pop up.... ect. 

[Serk]

Really.  No one of any consequence views or sifts through the data and information presented here. 

Why not.  All you have to do is to write an appropriate algorithm looking for specific words and phrases and have the computer do the analysis as to the number of times they pop up, when they pop up.... ect. 

Bingo.

https://www.businessinsider.com/pictures-of-the-nsas-utah-data-center-2013-6

[Gryphon Rider]

Romans 13:1-5 (ESV)
Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience.

Unless such ruling authority goes against the word of God in which case I will not forsake the gathering together of Gods people in His name. There are all sorts of underground church services around the world that are technically against the law. Nice try

You can change your private Bible study to comply with regulations either by splitting it into smaller groups or by moving it into a larger room at your church where you can have households physically distance from one another, calling it a worship service.  I am assuming that in your location group size limits for worship services are higher than for private gatherings.

Church groups that stubbornly defy regulations that make gathering less convenient but do not actually prohibit gathering are risking incurring God's judgement (per Romans 13), and discredit the name of Christ.

We cant change the fact that our small group meets at our home has members of more than one church and is always more than the allotted households..  You and I will just have to agree to disagree on this one

Yes, we will have to agree to disagree.  There are, however, many options for small groups to meet, including using Zoom-type platforms.  You could have smaller groups of three households meeting in one home, then connecting with other three-household groups via Zoom (or other platform).  Also, what is the problem with using one church at the meeting place for all your group members, regardless of whether or not it is everyone's home church?  I would think any church would be happy to have their facility used this way.

[Chrisj CMA]

Romans 13:1-5 (ESV)
Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience.

Unless such ruling authority goes against the word of God in which case I will not forsake the gathering together of Gods people in His name. There are all sorts of underground church services around the world that are technically against the law. Nice try

You can change your private Bible study to comply with regulations either by splitting it into smaller groups or by moving it into a larger room at your church where you can have households physically distance from one another, calling it a worship service.  I am assuming that in your location group size limits for worship services are higher than for private gatherings.

Church groups that stubbornly defy regulations that make gathering less convenient but do not actually prohibit gathering are risking incurring God's judgement (per Romans 13), and discredit the name of Christ.

We cant change the fact that our small group meets at our home has members of more than one church and is always more than the allotted households..  You and I will just have to agree to disagree on this one

Yes, we will have to agree to disagree.  There are, however, many options for small groups to meet, including using Zoom-type platforms.  You could have smaller groups of three households meeting in one home, then connecting with other three-household groups via Zoom (or other platform).  Also, what is the problem with using one church at the meeting place for all your group members, regardless of whether or not it is everyone's home church?  I would think any church would be happy to have their facility used this way.

Not going to explain the whole thing. Just won’t work. Not going to go to zoom it and we meet in the home for good reason. It’s hypothetical anyway. No stupid rules like that will be enacted here. But if it weee to ever happen I’ll risk the consequences 

[Gryphon Rider]

Another "view"

Romans 13:1-5 (ESV)
Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience.

From the link below. 

There is one passage of scripture that needs to be rightly divided and compared to the whole will of God. These passages are widely misunderstood for various reasons and this is Romans 13:1 – 7. On the evil side of dividing the word of truth, the anti-Christian political principalities want to isolate these scriptures separating them from the rest of the bible. They hope to convince Christians not to speak the word of God in the political sphere. They do not want Christians to expose their darkness. Seculars have been largely successful and seem to know better than Christians the power of prayer and the spoken word of God because they fear it. 

........

Then to continue to believe Romans 13:1 is referring to every governing authority one must conclude that God has handed His authority over to the state. The definition of state is a politically organized body of people under a single entity. If Christians still believe this, do they draw the line between good and evil without accepting the absolute truth of God’s word as written in the bible?  They would fail to understand that if this is true, Christians are totally subject to the state and cannot rebel against it. Then the state defines the standard by which Christians have to live. This takes God out of the picture, and replaces Him with governing authorities. The 10 Commandants would have to become multiple choices.

“You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal,” becomes you shall not unless government says you shall. Then the line between good and evil can be moved to anywhere the authority wants. Like killing disabled children or the elderly as long as the state says we shall. "

"History teaches us the true evil which results from this type of biblical fallacy. We only have to look back at the state of Germany under fascism. The governing authorities ordered the German people to kill millions of Jews, Christians and others. Germany was principally Christian Lutheran and Martin Luther taught the world how to stand against an authoritarian theocracy, i.e. government. But Germans failed to influence their government and these authorities systematically killed and incinerated over 12 million men, women and children. Hitler called this the final solution. No real Christian can argue this governing authority was God instituted.”

https://www.foxholeministry.com/index.php/blog/truth-blog/part-i-romans-13-1-7-is-one-of-the-most-misunderstood-scriptures

The author of that article is making a straw-man argument, battling a position that no authentic, mature Christian seriously holds.

I am not, of course, advocating submitting to civil edicts that command us to violate God's commands.  What I am saying is that when authorities require us to do things that do not violate God's commands, God requires us to submit to them, even if it is inconvenient, difficult, or offends merely our pride.

God hasn't handed His authority over to the state (or any other earthly authority, but I will use "state" for the purpose of this discussion), but rather delegates it to the state to serve His sovereign purpose.  This is despite that the state doesn't know it is fulfilling God's purpose, and may even have unholy motivations of its own.  The state may even cause suffering, such as with over-taxation or having to re-breathe our own breath and have our glasses fog up while wearing a mask.  We are still required to submit, but we can trust that God's justice is perfect, giving us eternal reward for our temporal suffering, and meting out His wrath on oppressors who never came to repentance and faith.

The book of Habakkuk carries this theme:  God tells Habakkuk that His plan is that the evil and prideful Chaldeans will punish Judah, which has been unfaithful to God, but will then punish the Chaldeans for their pride and violence against the nations they invade.

[Gryphon Rider]

Rodney Howard Brown was arrested and released for holding church services indoors, so now he holds them outside.

I am with you on this Chris, since there are many including Moses that went against the prevailing authority. Jesus Himself did not listen to the authority of the time either, what would you say to Him?
did they incur Gods wrath?

I would also mention it seems the predominately Dem controlled cities that have these draconian rules. Maybe the virus is only in these cities?


carolinarider09

Very good response

God directly commanded Moses and Israel to do what they did, and the people of Israel did not leave Egypt until Pharaoh officially released them.  We are to submit to earthly authority unless it contravenes God's command.  Jesus never defied civil authority, i.e. Rome.  The Pharisees were a religious party that had authority only over those that were members of their sect.  He was tried by the religious court, the Sanhedrin (which included Pharisees, Sadducees, and scribes and priests that may not have necessarily been aligned with either party), where only false witnesses testified against him because he had not actually broken any law.

[Willow]

It's an interesting perspective but not as simple as you would make it.  In the book of Hebrews the inspired writer says, "Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful; and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds, not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near."  Some believe that he was the same inspired writer that wrote the letter to the Romans.  Whether or not that is true both passages hold the same value.

When mortal authorities dictate a restriction to gathering have they crossed that line that belongs not to Earthly legality but to Heavenly law?  Then again when one of those mortal authorities dictates something that violates the Constitution is it the violating authority we should obey or should we obey the Constitution which that scripture identifies as God's tool?

Some answers are more complicated than some of us would want to see.   

[Gryphon Rider]

Trust me, as a leader in my own church, I have done much thinking and praying about the balance between God’s commands to submit to authority, to not neglect gathering together, and to love our neighbours. Our church is congregational in structure, which means large decisions need the approval of a majority of members who have a spectrum of opinions on how best to be the church during this time. We have gone to a fair amount of trouble and expense to meet protocols and still be able to meet, as commanded by God.

[carolinarider09]

I am sorry, I am not a very active church goer.  I, in my youth studied the bible, the teachings of God and his teachings through his son Jesus Christ.

I believe, and it is my belief that God laws come first, then the states.  And the term "states" does not mean South Carolina or Minnesota, or California.  The states, South Carolina, derive their powers from the United States Constitution. 

The state cannot prevent me from having friends join me in my house or any other private place because the United States Constitution takes precedence over the state.  And in the United States Constitution the First Amendment states:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.


This cannot be suborned, nullified or otherwise negated by the state or any state official.

And while a state might take this opportunity to expand their power, they legally cannot do so.  They can only do so if the residents of that state allow them to do so.  And, if we the residents of those states allow them to do so, we are lost as a nation that holds the U. S. Constitution dear. 

Again the requirement was directed to gatherings at ones home and was instituted by a "State".  The limitation on gatherings is "unjust" since it flies directly against the First Amendment.

Martin Luther King stated the following: "One not only has a legal, but a moral responsibility to obey just laws.  Conversely, one has a moral responsibility to disobey unjust laws.

[Chrisj CMA]

Amen carolinarider. Satan wants us to limit and cancel worship of the true God. I’m not going along with that!

[Robert]

Many religious will quote commands of God without the grace and understanding that God Himself in the giving of His Son allows us to have the freedom to make decisions led by the spirit. They are the task masters joined forever in lockstep with many in church leadership, Nazis, communists, the law, Muslims and now our government that say OBEY. With the threats being jailed, not belonging to the church, not a member of the body, not a good christian, or in the government side jailed for being a dissident, rebel, trouble maker.

I so detest the using Obey in the bible as a iron clad blanket statement in following the government or any authority rather than God.

Many know this is only preparation for what is coming.
 
I know many who have left their church for not holding church services in this pandemic.

It is kind of Ironic that its the church that is making itself submissive to the ruling authorities and showing who their allegiance is to in contrast to following the one true Master.

They show they may not be led by the spirit but by the flesh, I thought Jesus said He has command over all illness and disease? I thought we were not supposed to fear those that could hurt our body but fear the one that could throw us in hell forever. Seems we have taken words over spirit and made them our guiding principle since many do not hear God Himself or are led by Him.

We are finding out that the church is powerless and another institution with further rules and regs of  or like the government also imparts on its citizens. Wasnt it the white washed tombs that crucified Jesus the ones on the moral high ground?  

I thought even in death we are to have no fear for we know where we are going and the only thing that mattered was to hear well done my good and faithful servant.

I think many are like the parable of the ten talents and the servant that buried his.

I was saved by God and not in a church, baptized in a sink, filled with the spirit and walk as close as I can to my one True Master, none of that was done in a church and most likely would never have been done in many churches.



Godlessness in the Last Days
2Ti 3:1  But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come.
2Ti 3:2  For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, revilers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy,
2Ti 3:3  unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good,
2Ti 3:4  treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God,

2Ti 3:5  holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power; Avoid such men as these.

2Ti 3:6  For among them are those who enter into households and captivate weak women weighed down with sins, led on by various impulses,

2Ti 3:7  always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

2Ti 3:8  Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these men also oppose the truth, men of depraved mind, rejected in regard to the faith.
2Ti 3:9  But they will not make further progress; for their folly will be obvious to all, just as Jannes's and Jambres's folly was also.


The church needs to have some major changes and we may find that this may be the start of those changes.

Gryphon I know things are difficult for pastors in this time or anyone leading a church. We dont agree on the Obey and we come from different ends of this discussion. But I pray for Gods blessing on your meetings and Gods wisdom to lead.

[Oss]

Carolina, thanks for your input but the way it goes is
The people have given certain rights to the Federal government and those not specifically given
are reserved by the people   Those rights reserved by the people can be the province of their individual states,   It being of course easier for one to change a state law than a federal one

This is why Jefferson believed the 10th amendment so important

Since wwI the feds have grabbed more and more power.  I hope the new SCOTUS will trim that back over a short time and give back to the states and the people

[Robert]

The more things change the more we find they are the same

As governor, Pilate had the right to appoint the Jewish High Priest and also officially controlled the vestments of the High Priest in the Antonia Fortress.

When Moses decided to leave the position in government he had,It was by faith that Moses, when he grew up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter. He decided to renounce his place of privilege in Pharoah's family and to identify himself with God's people. He was aware that this choice was a renunciation of a pleasure-filled life and would inevitably lead to suffering: "choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God than to enjoy the passing pleasures of sin."
 
 Maybe the cost of freedom is what Moses decided was worth it. He decided by faith we walk by faith not by sight. He had not had his burning bush experience at this time and even then God did not speak to Moses until he decided to look.

We have a choice today also