HELP____Brake fluid in engine

[stevelp]

SOMEONE PLEASE HELP--I just finished re -jetting the beast and when I tried to start up, it was relunctant to start.  While trying to find out what the problem was, I saw what looked like twin leaks on both sides of the bike.  I couldn't find where it was leaking from.  I continued to try to start and after several tries, the leaks were much worse.  I also noticed the resevoir for the clutch fluid had gone down considerably.  It seems as if the leaks are brake fluid ( from the clutch resevoir) AND IS  going through the engine and was leaking out the exaust about half way back.   The few times the bike tried to run, there was a lot of smoke and a really strong smell that wasn't gasoline.

Any ideas what could be wrong and if anyone does know, can you tell me how to fix it.

[Joe Hummer]

I know of absolutely no way for clutch fluid to get in the gas (which it would need to do to get into the exhaust.  But...the clutch bleed valve is located just in front of the center cover.  I would check it to make sure it hadn't come open.  You will have to bleed the clutch once you have determined where the leak is. 

Joe

[John U.]

I am not sure if I understand. Have you determined that the leaks are coming from the exhaust system drain holes? If so it may just be condensation, which is why the holes are there. You may also have a leak in your clutch fluid, but I agree, it isn't leaking from the exhaust. Does the clutch lever feel soft, or normal?
As far as hard starting, after rejeting, there would be no fuel in the carb bowls, unless you applied vacume to open the petcock. Unless you have changed to a Pingle of course.
Let us know how it turns out.

[Robert]

Well that's a new one on me too. The clutch is at the back of the engine and separated by a seal and the only thing that seal does is seal the rod that actually moves the clutch spring from the slave. It goes to the crankcase and not to the carbs or anywhere near the intake. But there is a bleeder nipple that is chrome that is above the crankcase breather in the center back of the engine and if that was open and you connected a vacuum tube to it then maybe. If that indeed did happen then since you are more than likely out of fluid it should still start and run half way decent. As was pointed out unless you let vacuum into the petcock it will not let fuel into the engine. Cranking the engine will let some fuel in but you really need to open the valve first and by applying vacuum and letting the bowls fill with gas then start it. If after a few seconds you still have smoke, smell or such then maybe there's something amiss and you need to recheck.

[Patrick]

The boys are right,, there is no way hydraulic fluid can get into the engine unless the scenario that Robert stated has happened.. That bleeder screw is behind the engine and looks like a grease fitting and shouldn't have anything hooked to it except a rubber cover/cap.. Your engine is not starting due to some other issue, more likely what they said, fuel has not gotten to the carburetors yet.. 

[BlueValk]

Somehow when you re-jetted, the floats got messed up and one or more bowls are overfilling.  That could explain the leaks and the smoking when started.
Shouldn't be too bad to rectify ...

[PAVALKER]

Huh?    Check your hydraulic fluids again..... if they are low, then fill em up (bleed if need be).   No way those fluids are getting in the combustion chamber....  unless you poured some in.....

[Joe Hummer]

I would NOT just refill the clutch and let it go.  The clutch is a closed loop system, meaning you will not loose fluid unless you have a leak.  Find the leak first, fix the leak, then refill the clutch system. 

Joe

[alph]

I would bet you just flooded your engine with fuel.  The real question is, did you just notice the clutch fluid? 

Could it have been low before and in a panic you made assumptions?

There’s no way that the fluid could get into your cylinders.  You’d be blowing out gobs of oil before you would pump out any clutch fluid.

Don’t worry, I’m thinking you flooded your engine.  Pull your spark plugs, let it air out over night, start ‘er up tomorrow, go for a ride and think of us poor bastards that have a ton of salt and sand on the roads!!! 

[john]

_Brake fluid in engine ........       

[Mikey]

  Pull your spark plugs, let it air out over night, start ‘er up tomorrow, go for a ride and think of us poor bastards that have a ton of salt and sand on the roads!!! 

I would have to agree... There's no way you could get brake fluid in your motor without trying (not recommended!). But do think of us less privileged northerners! Was planning on getting the sled out, but I got a new track and I've got all sorts of clearance issues... no riding anything for me until it thaws 

[stevelp]

OK.  You are all right. It wasn'tfluid from the clutch.  What I discovered was that before I did the re-jetting, fuel must have gone into the cylinders and leaked past mthe rings into the crankcase.  I rigged a makshift fuel tank and started it without the air box in place (after removing the sprkplugs and blowing out the cylinders).  There was fluid coming out of the crankcase ventilitation hose the goes to the air box,which I mistakenly thought was brake fluid from the clutch.    After draining the oil /fuel mix (about 2 gallons) and putting a new oil filter and new oil in, it started right up and ran great.  I figured I had the problem licked but another problem reared its ugly head.  When I was using the makeshift tank I only had about a quart of fuel in it.  When I put the air box and fuel tank back on it still ran great but was leaking fuel (lots) on te top of the engine...  To make matters worse I cant see where it is coming from.   I also had to remove the spark plugs again and blow out the cylinders.

Any ideas on where I need to start?

[X Ring]

You've obviously got a leak somewhere.  First, check your connections and make sure they are tight.  Then, check to see if your fuel lines need replacing.  If they do it's easy enough to replace them and inexpensive.  I've replaced mine with 5/16ths fuel line.  It's close to the same internal size yet thicker.  Last check your petcock.  The diaphrams could be torn and causing fuel to leak past.  In that case you would need to order the cover set and rebuild it.  Or you could take the weak link out of the system and replace it with a Pingel 1300. 

Since you will have to pull the tank to check/change the lines and check the petcock, you might as well knock it all out at the same time.  No sense pulling the tank to do one then discover it was the other and have to pull the tank all over again.  While you've got the tank off, change the air filter.

Marty

[Pete]

Had a fuel leak like you have. In my case it was coming out of the carb vent hoses(usually located over the rear carb support), from around the hose to petcock connection and leaking gas thru the petcock diaphram. Turning the petcock to off would slow the flow and eventually it would stop.

In my case the bike had been sitting for months, not your case.

Without vaccum on the petcock, turn the petcock off and on it should NOT flow gas. If it does rebuild or replace the petcock. Thanks Pete.

[Pete]

Just FYI for your engine to have filled with fuel, while sitting, you had to have had 2 failures.

1 Petcock left on and one or more carbs float valve did not shut off fuel flow.
2 Petcock off but vaccum valve on petcock failed and float valve failure as described in 1.

Good luck, Pete.

[Patrick]

I agree that you now have two problems.. 1. Apparently you have an external fuel leak somewhere.. Its either a line, petcock, or carburetor vent.. 2. Which cylinders were filled with fuel?? It Shouldn't have been all of them.. In order for a cylinder to fill with fuel a float valve has to be sticking.. An easy way to try and clean the float valve is to open the carburetor drain and petcock[you may have to supply a vacuum source] and allow the fuel to flow for awhile.. Tapping the side of the float chamber lightly with a screwdriver handle will help.. If that doesn't correct it then it needs to be replaced.. Just my opinion,but, the easiest way to help eliminate these problems is to install a plain ole in-line filter..

[John U.]

I agree with the in-line filter suggestion. Be sure it's a high flow rate filter, since you only have gravity moving the fuel a restrictive filter could starve the engine.
As for the leak on top of the engine, I had the same problem after rejetting and desmogging. Turns out it was caused by having the fuel system dry for so long. My leaks resolved themselves in a few days. I would turn the fuel on to fill up the system, then leave it off for the rest of the day, repeat tomorrow, etc. keep some rags to catch the drips and avoid sources of ignition. Some vetilation would be a good idea.
Sounds half-assed but it worked for me after I read a post on this board about a similar leak. It's been two years now with no further leaks.
Good luck, keep up posted.

[andym]

Just a side note.............I usually run at least two tanks of fuel with Seafoam or Techron fuel cleaner each season. THis helps IMHO to prevent sticking floats and generally clean the fuel system. Hopefully this stuff is not drying out rubber lines and gaskets...........I had a tank full of sludge on my 98 Standard and dumped out the tank and ran two tanks mixed with  Techron which solved my stalling problem in short order at minimal cost

[stevelp]

 I have replaced the fuel lines already.  I am going to order a pingle on Monday. Where is the best plaace to get it from?   With the non-vacuum pingle do you just cap the #6 vacuum hose.  If the fuel is coming from the carb vent lines, what could be causing it? The leak is not just a few drops. I would guess it is close to a 1/2 pint.  It happened twice.  I will try flushing the carbs with the drain (after I install the pingle).  The cylinders that filled with fuel were the two front ones on the left bank.  What in line filter should I get andwhere can I get it from?

Lots of questions and I really appreciate the help.

[John U.]

I use the Golan chrome filters, they're pricey but work great, no starvation.
The leak is probably caused by dried out O-rings. The fuel lines on each side connect to a T which connects to a segmented line to serve each carb. O-rings seal the segments.
Redeye tech sells an O-ring kit to rebuild the entire carb bank.

[Patrick]

The original fuel lines are 8mm [If I remember correctly] and are larger than 5/16".. So I 'force fit' a plain vanilla 3/8" filter that can be bought at any auto supply.. The lines can be replaced with all 5/16" tubing and the Pingle outlet is also 5/16"..

[Robert]

You really need to make sure where the fuel is coming from. You are so lucky up to this point after reading what about what happened I really understand how much two people facing the same situation one could wind up in really bad shape the other just walk away. With the amount of fuel that went through your engine and the problems you have had the one you didn't have was hydro lock. There have been guys the bike was running perfectly come out and bam you need to pull the engine. You walked right through it no problem. I only say this because you need to make sure that the floats are doing their job and not allowing to much fuel into the carb so as not to have hydro lock.If you do have fuel coming out of the vent hose to the carbs then recheck the floats. It may be a good check to use your aux tank and let it sit and see if it holds the gas overnight without valve or petcock in the line. Sometime running the thing is not a good indication if the floats are doing their job because the fuel is just sucked into the engine and usually its not off enough to change the running a whole lot.  Also I agree that the petcock could be a real issue and needs to be replaced anyway regardless of the cause of the leak. Pingle also makes a filter a bit expensive but ok to use. I think a inexpensive filter is used on the Goldwing in line and cheap and you know it will work. I have a belly tank and its really nice to be able to use a regular in line filter and not worry about it. Its paper filters down to 10 micron and it clear so I can see what the heck is going on.

[stevelp]

Thanks for the info. I am going to try the suggestion of hooking up my aux. fuel supply and see if I get a leak.  I think I will not do anything else until the Pingle petcock comes in. I will also order a filter.  I agree that I have been lucky not to have hydrolock.   I am afraid that  I am going to have to pull the carb bank again and do a complete rebuild of the carbs, but first will try some of the other things that have been suggested. I willlet you know what happens.

[stevelp]

Robert in S.Florida,   I just read your post in the "carb overhaul" post.  Can you tell me where you got all of the parts for the carb overhaul. If I have to pull the carb bank again I am going to do a complete rebuild of all the carbs. I don't really want to do this but I don't mwant to do theteardown more than once.  It has been some time since I have been ble to ride and need to scratch the itch to get back to riding again.

[Robert]

I ordered the jet kit from Factory Pro and the needles from Honda Direct Line. You can find other kits and most will be cheaper but I wanted a kit that had all the things I needed and included all the jets. Most kits only include the needles and some other misc parts. The only thing the kit didn't come with was a float bowl gasket no big deal because they are reusable I just thought it would have been nice. They also include bowl screws that are allen screws so you can get rid of the little pos screws that come with the carbs. Put a little grease on the bowl screws and the idle adjustment screws so you will have no problem if you ever have to take them out again. The kit was straight forward and easy to install and I used the base the kit recommends and have been pleased. I haven't taken the time to experiment further as I got what I was after. I wanted to see if the top end has improved along with the acceleration and I can tell you I am happy with the results. Good luck with the project repost to let us know how things turned out.
http://www.factorypro.com/
http://www.hdlparts.com/

[Pete]

SteveLP  - The fuel coming thru the overflow tube is because a float valve is not cutting fuel off in 1 or more carb bowls.  Fuel then leaks into the engine via small carb passages. If the valves are closed it may fill the intake and stop. In any case if flow from the tank has sufficient flow and volume than flows thru the carb jets it backs up in the carb air vent system (overflow tubes). Three carbs on each side attach to a common overflow. Hope this helps, Pete.

[Rocketman]

Sometime running the thing is not a good indication if the floats are doing their job because the fuel is just sucked into the engine and usually its not off enough to change the running a whole lot.  Also I agree that the petcock could be a real issue and needs to be replaced anyway regardless of the cause of the leak.

The leak is usually slight enough to not even be noticeable in a running engine, as the leaked fuel is less than the engine would use anyway.  Let it sit for a few hours, though, and bam.

As for the petcock, yes, get that repaired, or preferably replaced.  Sounds like you're on the right track.

[stevelp]

SteveLP  - The fuel coming thru the overflow tube is because a float valve is not cutting fuel off in 1 or more carb bowls.  Fuel then leaks into the engine via small carb passages. If the valves are closed it may fill the intake and stop. In any case if flow from the tank has sufficient flow and volume than flows thru the carb jets it backs up in the carb air vent system (overflow tubes). Three carbs on each side attach to a common overflow. Hope this helps, Pete.

Thanks Pete.  Its been to cold the last few days to work in the garage.  Finally pulled the carb bank.  Not nearly so hard as it was the first time.  I still havent gotten the parts for a rebuild of the carbs.  Thought while I wa swaiting I would pull the bowls and check the float valves.  Allof them appeared to be OK except one. I had to pry it out.  Cleaned up the float valve and seat.and put it all back together.  Without the air box or tank in place I tried starting it with my jury rigged fuel supply.  It took a bit of cranking but started up and ran pretty good.  Sooo I put the air box back on (Also not that hard the third or forth time) and hooked up the tank.  Cranked right up so I thought I would take it for a short test ride.  Went a short way and it stalled.  After I figured I had not turned the gas on, it started right up again.  Ran good but kind of rough. Think I need to sync the carbs. Don't really know how to do that but will do some reading here and go from there. 

Sorry for the long post but I am glad I got it back together and it ran. 

Thanks to all for the help, and wish me luck on the sync.  Any help on that would be appreciated.

[Rocketman]

Allof them appeared to be OK except one. I had to pry it out.  Cleaned up the float valve and seat.and put it all back together.

If you just cleaned the float valve/seat, then you probably didn't stop your leak.  I thought I had a leak stopped until I put a fuel source into it and waited.  It doesn't take a fast leak to cause a hydrolock.  Overnight, a slow leak will fill a cylinder just as much as a quick leak will.  Don't trust the float valves again until you pull the carbs and stop the leak (probably by replacing the carb).