Indiana doctor drops truth bombs

[Serk]

I'm shooting craps and you're playing poler.  ya takes you're chances.

poler?  I can't find it.  I assume the odds are fixed.

It's evidently a company that makes hanging tents?

[The emperor has no clothes]

My only response to your post is, we already know that acquiring COVID naturally can have lingering health effects.   Not for all but definitely for many.   ...

For some.  The term many is relative.  Given the percentage the term few would be more applicable.

Now that they have announced that vaccinated individuals may contract and transmit the viral infection logic tells us that vaccination does not contribute to "herd immunity".  Ironically all the anti-COVID mitigations that have been instigated, including vaccination promotions, have essentially elongated the path to herd immunity thus defeating the ongoing destruction of the virus.  It is true that more people will die but by elongating the duration will it actually be fewer or just the same number spread over a longer period?

The vast majority of the people who contract the viral infection have a short time of very miserable sickness and then a while of recovery.  The ones that are reported or that catch our attention are the one's who are killed or have lasting impact.  They are not anywhere near the majority.

He said many. Not the majority, but many. As towards the idea that the vaccinated are prolonging herd immunity, your theory also is incorrect. There is a clear decline in the numbers corresponding with the roll out of vaccinations. There is also a clear correspondence with the lack of vaccination in areas that are enabling the Delta variant to proliferate.

[f6gal]

Given the percentage the term few would be more applicable.

I disagree.  While I certainly don't believe most have long term consequences, many do.  Some people who thought they escaped COVID unscathed are finding out they have damage of which they were unaware.  

https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20210401/many-show-long-term-organ-damage-after-covid#1

I do agree that the mitigations (not including vaccinations) prolonged the path to herd immunity. We would have had herd immunity by now, if they hadn't shut everything down and quarantined healthy people.

[Serk]

I do agree that the mitigations (not including vaccinations) prolonged the path to herd immunity.

An interesting side effect of the mitigations that most people could have predicted - You might have seen the breathless news that the North Texas area is out of staffed PICU beds.... There are 2 parts missing to that headline:

1."STAFFED" PICU beds... Most of the hospitals in the area just fired a LOT of nurses who'd declined to be vaccinated. They're not out of beds, they're out of people to staff them.

2. The majority of the PICU patients are NOT there due to COVID, but due to RSV. RSV is nasty (As a parent of preemies, well versed in it) but most kids other than preemies it's not a HUGE deal.... except these kids just spent the last 1.5 years having their immune systems being stunted.... Now all of a sudden, it's back with a vengeance

[Patrick]

As a kid I got what I think were the mandatory vaccines. Polio, smallpox, maybe more. Who can be sure they will or won't have issues from any of them ?  

I remember the huge controversy over Sabin and Salk over dead vs live vaccine. I also remember a million folks getting polio directly related to being vaccinated. Who is to say who would or wouldn't get sick because of any , or no, vaccine.

Folks are still today getting sick and some dying from WuFlu vaccine. I think like anything, its a crap shoot. More after affects are being learned of every day.

My only response to your post is, we already know that acquiring COVID naturally can have lingering health effects.   Not for all but definitely for many.   Like playing poker?   Some times ya win, some times ya lose.   It's the player's decision to sit down at the table and play.   After having three people stay at my home that tested positive for COVID 19, I'm pretty sure I was dealt a winning hand.

Rams  

I'm shooting craps and you're playing poker.  ya takes you're chances.

poker, poker, poker. One letter off on the key board. And I even proof read it and didn't notice it.

[Willow]

He said many. Not the majority, but many. As towards the idea that the vaccinated are prolonging herd immunity, your theory also is incorrect. There is a clear decline in the numbers corresponding with the roll out of vaccinations. There is also a clear correspondence with the lack of vaccination in areas that are enabling the Delta variant to proliferate.

You assume too much.  Herd immunity doesn't mean a decline in numbers but declination to a point that it is no longer a dangerous "pandemic" level disease.  You're also assuming that the decline is resultant only from the vaccinations and not influenced by the number of people who have experienced the infection.

I agree that the vaccine lowers the impact of the infection and even lowers the chances of contracting the infection but it does not eliminate it.  Herd immunity depends upon a percentage of people being unable to contract or transmit the disease.

I usually let Rams speak for himself.  I appreciate exchanging with someone who has at least a modicum of logical skills.

[f6gal]

I do agree that the mitigations (not including vaccinations) prolonged the path to herd immunity.

An interesting side effect of the mitigations that most people could have predicted - You might have seen the breathless news that the North Texas area is out of staffed PICU beds.... There are 2 parts missing to that headline:

1."STAFFED" PICU beds... Most of the hospitals in the area just fired a LOT of nurses who'd declined to be vaccinated. They're not out of beds, they're out of people to staff them.

1. The majority of the PICU patients are NOT there due to COVID, but due to RSV. RSV is nasty (As a parent of preemies, well versed in it) but most kids other than preemies it's not a HUGE deal.... except these kids just spent the last 1.5 years having their immune systems being stunted.... Now all of a sudden, it's back with a vengeance

Good catches there.  Lies of omission.

[Rams]

I usually let Rams speak for himself.

Would you mind passing that wisdom on to my wife? 

Rams

[Willow]

I usually let Rams speak for himself.

Would you mind passing that wisdom on to my wife?   

LOL! Perhaps it's not wisdom but just confidence and tolerance.   

[Valkorado]

I do agree that the mitigations (not including vaccinations) prolonged the path to herd immunity.

An interesting side effect of the mitigations that most people could have predicted - You might have seen the breathless news that the North Texas area is out of staffed PICU beds....

1."STAFFED" PICU beds... Most of the hospitals in the area just fired a LOT of nurses who'd declined to be vaccinated. They're not out of beds, they're out of people to staff them.

.... Now all of a sudden, it's back with a vengeance

Good catches there.  Lies of omission.

I am against this, especially considering that fully vaccinated people can spread the (delta) virus.  I am against mandates period, no matter the profession or status of those bring mandated.

I know if I or a loved one was in need of emergency hospital care for any reason, whether some of the attending staff was fully vaccinated, brimming with naturally acquired antibodies, or sworn antivaxers would be of little concern to me.  I would want competent care.  In general nurses know how to take care of themselves and their patients, working around all kinds of nasty infectious diseases.

Firing these desperately needed heroes just doesn't seem wise.

[Rams]

Firing these desperately needed heroes just doesn't seem wise.

This, I agree with but, suppose you keep those "heros" and they come to work, do their job as professionally as possible.   Maybe they even get checked routinely for the virus but, there's that darned incubation period where you have it but, it doesn't show up in symptoms.   Now, apparently, the Delta strain is even more transmittable even to those who have the anti-bodies.

There will be some who go to that hospital or emergency room or hospital (maybe during that incubation period) and then claim they got it (COVID) from one of those heros that helped them.   Sue the hospital and bankrupt it.   Leaves a community with no medical facility.   Don't say it can't happen cause it can.   Lawyers and juries love to find deep pockets.  

As a hospital administrator, are you gonna keep all those folks that refuse to get vaccinated?  
In a court room, having proof that all of your "professional staff" are vaccinated might help, might not but.......

Personally, I'd keep them but, that's just me.

Rams

[Avanti]

I do agree that the mitigations (not including vaccinations) prolonged the path to herd immunity.

by

An interesting side effect of the mitigations that most people could have predicted - You might have seen the breathless news that the North Texas area is out of staffed PICU beds.... There are 2 parts missing to that headline:

1."STAFFED" PICU beds... Most of the hospitals in the area just fired a LOT of nurses who'd declined to be vaccinated. They're not out of beds, they're out of people to staff them.

2. The majority of the PICU patients are NOT there due to COVID, but due to RSV. RSV is nasty (As a parent of preemies, well versed in it) but most kids other than preemies it's not a HUGE deal.... except these kids just spent the last 1.5 years having their immune systems being stunted.... Now all of a sudden, it's back with a vengeance

I do agree that the mitigations (not including vaccinations) prolonged the path to herd immunity.

An interesting side effect of the mitigations that most people could have predicted - You might have seen the breathless news that the North Texas area is out of staffed PICU beds.... There are 2 parts missing to that headline:

1."STAFFED" PICU beds... Most of the hospitals in the area just fired a LOT of nurses who'd declined to be vaccinated. They're not out of beds, they're out of people to staff them.

2. The majority of the PICU patients are NOT there due to COVID, but due to RSV. RSV is nasty (As a parent of preemies, well versed in it) but most kids other than preemies it's not a HUGE deal.... except these kids just spent the last 1.5 years having their immune systems being stunted.... Now all of a sudden, it's back with a vengeance

Interesting I posted about this in another thread and it got blown off.

Kids in the hospitals. Might want to take a look at respiratory syncytial virus, aka RSV. Since children were kept apart during this last year hospitals across our country are now seeing a large increase in this respiratory illness. This can be very dangerous for young children as well as older adults. No vaccine is available for RSV, there is only symptom management and unfortunately no such thing as zero deaths.

[Avanti]

Firing Medical Personnel.
They went from Highly Essential to worthless!
So since they are no longer needed the pandemic must be over.

[f6gal]

Firing these desperately needed heroes just doesn't seem wise.

This, I agree with but, suppose you keep those "heros" and they come to work, do their job as professionally as possible.   Maybe they even get checked routinely for the virus but, there's that darned incubation period where you have it but, it doesn't show up in symptoms.   Now, apparently, the Delta strain is even more transmittable even to those who have the anti-bodies.

There will be some who go to that hospital or emergency room or hospital (maybe during that incubation period) and then claim they got it (COVID) from one of those heros that helped them.   Sue the hospital and bankrupt it.   Leaves a community with no medical facility.   Don't say it can't happen cause it can.   Lawyers and juries love to find deep pockets.  

As a hospital administrator, are you gonna keep all those folks that refuse to get vaccinated?  
In a court room, having proof that all of your "professional staff" are vaccinated might help, might not but.......

Personally, I'd keep them but, that's just me.

Rams

Keep the staff.  Anyone that doesn't want to vaccinate, must wear a properly fitted N95.  Simple solution. 

Hospitals already require flu vaccines; for those who don't want them, mandatory masks for the duration of flu season.

[Valkorado]

Firing these desperately needed heroes just doesn't seem wise.

This, I agree with but, suppose you keep those "heros" and they come to work, do their job as professionally as possible.   Maybe they even get checked routinely for the virus but, there's that darned incubation period where you have it but, it doesn't show up in symptoms.   Now, apparently, the Delta strain is even more transmittable even to those who have the anti-bodies.

There will be some who go to that hospital or emergency room or hospital (maybe during that incubation period) and then claim they got it (COVID) from one of those heros that helped them.   Sue the hospital and bankrupt it.   Leaves a community with no medical facility.   Don't say it can't happen cause it can.   Lawyers and juries love to find deep pockets.  

As a hospital administrator, are you gonna keep all those folks that refuse to get vaccinated?  
In a court room, having proof that all of your "professional staff" are vaccinated might help, might not but.......

Personally, I'd keep them but, that's just me.

Rams

I thought of legal aspect, but there are lawyer$ drooling on both sides.

Considering the incubation period and asymptomatic spread is kinda a slippery slope now since even vaccinated and asymptomatic people can apparently spread Delta.  That could be a game changer.

I still believe the vaccines are currently our best bet, individually and as a society.  Until the total evaders come (lambda?). Time is of the essence...

I just heard today was a big day for vaccinations in America, the most administered in a single day in months.  I think that's great!  

[Avanti]

Firing these desperately needed heroes just doesn't seem wise.

This, I agree with but, suppose you keep those "heros" and they come to work, do their job as professionally as possible.   Maybe they even get checked routinely for the virus but, there's that darned incubation period where you have it but, it doesn't show up in symptoms.   Now, apparently, the Delta strain is even more transmittable even to those who have the anti-bodies.

There will be some who go to that hospital or emergency room or hospital (maybe during that incubation period) and then claim they got it (COVID) from one of those heros that helped them.   Sue the hospital and bankrupt it.   Leaves a community with no medical facility.   Don't say it can't happen cause it can.   Lawyers and juries love to find deep pockets. 

As a hospital administrator, are you gonna keep all those folks that refuse to get vaccinated?   
In a court room, having proof that all of your "professional staff" are vaccinated might help, might not but.......

Personally, I'd keep them but, that's just me.

Rams

Keep the staff.  Anyone that doesn't want to vaccinate, must wear a properly fitted N95.  Simple solution. 

Hospitals already require flu vaccines; for those who don't want them, mandatory masks for the duration of flu season.

Flue shots are FDA Approved and you are not fired over choosing not to take it. Early on there were eggs in the manufacturing process and some people are allergic to eggs so could not take the shot.

[Patrick]

There is a big concern about this RSV thing in this area [ upstate NY]. There is more of this right now than the WuFlu. I never heard of it until a couple days ago.

[Rams]

Firing these desperately needed heroes just doesn't seem wise.

This, I agree with but, suppose you keep those "heros" and they come to work, do their job as professionally as possible.   Maybe they even get checked routinely for the virus but, there's that darned incubation period where you have it but, it doesn't show up in symptoms.   Now, apparently, the Delta strain is even more transmittable even to those who have the anti-bodies.

There will be some who go to that hospital or emergency room or hospital (maybe during that incubation period) and then claim they got it (COVID) from one of those heros that helped them.   Sue the hospital and bankrupt it.   Leaves a community with no medical facility.   Don't say it can't happen cause it can.   Lawyers and juries love to find deep pockets.  

As a hospital administrator, are you gonna keep all those folks that refuse to get vaccinated?  
In a court room, having proof that all of your "professional staff" are vaccinated might help, might not but.......

Personally, I'd keep them but, that's just me.

Rams

Keep the staff.  Anyone that doesn't want to vaccinate, must wear a properly fitted N95.  Simple solution. 

Hospitals already require flu vaccines; for those who don't want them, mandatory masks for the duration of flu season.

But, but, but, according to some, that may infringe on those employees rights........... 

Rams

[f6gal]

Firing these desperately needed heroes just doesn't seem wise.

This, I agree with but, suppose you keep those "heros" and they come to work, do their job as professionally as possible.   Maybe they even get checked routinely for the virus but, there's that darned incubation period where you have it but, it doesn't show up in symptoms.   Now, apparently, the Delta strain is even more transmittable even to those who have the anti-bodies.

There will be some who go to that hospital or emergency room or hospital (maybe during that incubation period) and then claim they got it (COVID) from one of those heros that helped them.   Sue the hospital and bankrupt it.   Leaves a community with no medical facility.   Don't say it can't happen cause it can.   Lawyers and juries love to find deep pockets.  

As a hospital administrator, are you gonna keep all those folks that refuse to get vaccinated?  
In a court room, having proof that all of your "professional staff" are vaccinated might help, might not but.......

Personally, I'd keep them but, that's just me.

Rams

Keep the staff.  Anyone that doesn't want to vaccinate, must wear a properly fitted N95.  Simple solution.  

Hospitals already require flu vaccines; for those who don't want them, mandatory masks for the duration of flu season.

But, but, but, according to some, that may infringe on those employees rights...........  

Rams

Whatever.  The employees would not be fired without having an option to remain employed.  The hospitals are attempting to protect their patients.  There's also the lawsuit debacle... should the hospitals have to risk being sued for possibly giving patients covid?

[Ken aka Oil Burner]

If the vaccinated employees were to give Covid to a patient, how is that any better? A vaccinated employee may contract and spread the virus without even being aware they have it. In my eyes, that's actually more of a threat than an un-vaccinated person, as the un-vaxxed person would likely be showing symptoms and be sent home to quarantine.

[Avanti]

If the vaccinated employees were to give Covid to a patient, how is that any better? A vaccinated employee may contract and spread the virus without even being aware they have it. In my eyes, that's actually more of a threat than an un-vaccinated person, as the un-vaxxed person would likely be showing symptoms and be sent home to quarantine.

They have not figured that out yet. They are having the exemption employees get tested weekly. I am guessing they will figure it out eventually. But has there been any hospital where the employees have been infected in great numbers?

The problem the hospitals are creating at the moment, beds without staff = no beds.

[f6gal]

If the vaccinated employees were to give Covid to a patient, how is that any better? A vaccinated employee may contract and spread the virus without even being aware they have it. In my eyes, that's actually more of a threat than an un-vaccinated person, as the un-vaxxed person would likely be showing symptoms and be sent home to quarantine.

Many, many un-vaxxed people have asymptomatic cases (more than vaxxed).

The problem the hospitals are creating at the moment, beds without staff = no beds.

Agreed.  Allow staff to remain working with N95s.

[semo97]

I have wore N95 and they are hard to breath in. I get light headed due to not being able to get good 02. I should just as well wear my big dust ventilator mask I wear cutting granite, and concrete. Hats off to those that can wear the N95. You can put 20 doctors in a room and not all will agree. Your choice, who makes the most sense to you.

[scooperhsd]

Funny thing about "breathing".

My wife of 34 years (Aug 8, if anyone gives a darn) is going in for surgery for a mass in her female parts.

Anyway, for the pre op appointment, they gave her this plastic thing that she is supposed to suck air  into her lungs with . They put a yellow thingy on at 2000 mL for her goal. I can fairly easily pull 4000 mL, And I generally breathe very shallow about 4 breaths out of 5.

[The emperor has no clothes]

Funny thing about "breathing".

My wife of 34 years (Aug 8, if anyone gives a darn) is going in for surgery for a mass in her female parts.

Anyway, for the pre op appointment, they gave her this plastic thing that she is supposed to suck air  into her lungs with . They put a yellow thingy on at 2000 mL for her goal. I can fairly easily pull 4000 mL, And I generally breathe very shallow about 4 breaths out of 5.

I hope you remembered.  


I also hope the surgery goes well 

[Oss]

I am curious

Why am I reading that a country will almost 90% vaccinations has such high covid and death rate
Israel

While the gaza and palestinian areas have such low vaccine rates and low covid


Also Great Britain rates are not along what the government would have us believe

Like Stalin said  who cares who votes I care who counts the votes and releases the stats