Is the moderating of the board driving members away?

[Willow]

I actually didn't want to burden the board with this stuff.  You may remember I'm not crazy about and don't trust polls.  However I've been accused of driving members away and it has been suggested that if I'm going to moderate the board that I should not participate in posting.

So I'm giving the members a chance express their perspectives in a poll.

[The emperor has no clothes]

If the third choice in the poll prevails, can we burn you at the stake ? (I will withhold my vote until this is determined)

[Willow]

If the third choice in the poll prevails, can we burn you at the stake ? (I will withhold my vote until this is determined)

No.

It's not a vote.  It is simply a poll.   

[The emperor has no clothes]

 

[Valkorado]

On the Home page I'm seeing Most Online Today: 240. Most Online Ever: 1440 (February 16, 2015, 10:14:54 AM)

I remember a discussion where it was determined the most online ever in Feb. 2015 was some kind of Google fluke -- robo hits or something.

I'm not sure what the participation goal is, but I can recall stretches in the past where the most online daily tally was only charting numbers in the 40's or 50's. So, if it's accurate 240 fine folks online today is better than it has been. Especially considering it's an old site with old tech talking about old bikes -- and it's run by and composed of old people.

Yawn.  I need a nap.  

Otherwise,   No vote, no comment.

[Patrick]

We have disagreed a number of times, but, that doesn't mean anything. Everyone disagrees at times.

That said, I think he does what he thinks is right. At times I've disagreed with what he has done. But, there needs to be boundaries and he interpretes them as he sees them.

If some have left because of that, oh well. I happen to think most that have left is because of differing opinions between other members rather than Willow.

[The emperor has no clothes]

Edited:  The rest of my opinion is that if a member can't give an honest response, don't bother responding.   That applies to just about every topic discussed, not just this one.
Rams

It was a dumb poll. First, it was predicated that Willow only moderates based on the “Rules of the Road”. This makes the poll flawed severely to begin with. Second, he stated that he was giving us a chance to express our opinions in a poll. Again flawed. The poll was limited in scope with answers that only he determined. Third, polling a group of old, conservative, motorcycle riders (well, some ride) is again meaningless.

Thus it was deserving of a sarcastic response.

[Jersey mike]

No. I don’t believe so.

The issue my be less posts about riding and more posts on off topic issues which have cause a separation.

I know my seat time isn’t what I want it to be and posting ride reports just isn’t easy.

It’s been a terrible couple years with politics and added Covid on there just doesn’t make good conversation.

The old saying of bar etiquette no talking politics and religion comes to mind.

[Skinhead]

Edited:  The rest of my opinion is that if a member can't give an honest response, don't bother responding.   That applies to just about every topic discussed, not just this one.
Rams

It was a dumb poll. First, it was predicated that Willow only moderates based on the “Rules of the Road”. This makes the poll flawed severely to begin with. Second, he stated that he was giving us a chance to express our opinions in a poll. Again flawed. The poll was limited in scope with answers that only he determined. Third, polling a group of old, conservative, motorcycle riders (well, some ride) is again meaningless.

Thus it was deserving of a sarcastic response.

I believe posts like that quoted are what drove/is driving members away.

[The emperor has no clothes]

Edited:  The rest of my opinion is that if a member can't give an honest response, don't bother responding.   That applies to just about every topic discussed, not just this one.
Rams

It was a dumb poll. First, it was predicated that Willow only moderates based on the “Rules of the Road”. This makes the poll flawed severely to begin with. Second, he stated that he was giving us a chance to express our opinions in a poll. Again flawed. The poll was limited in scope with answers that only he determined. Third, polling a group of old, conservative, motorcycle riders (well, some ride) is again meaningless.

Thus it was deserving of a sarcastic response.

I believe posts like that quoted are what drove/is driving members away.

You may be right. You should start a poll.

[..]

Edited:  The rest of my opinion is that if a member can't give an honest response, don't bother responding.   That applies to just about every topic discussed, not just this one.
Rams

It was a dumb poll. First, it was predicated that Willow only moderates based on the “Rules of the Road”. This makes the poll flawed severely to begin with. Second, he stated that he was giving us a chance to express our opinions in a poll. Again flawed. The poll was limited in scope with answers that only he determined. Third, polling a group of old, conservative, motorcycle riders (well, some ride) is again meaningless.

Thus it was deserving of a sarcastic response.

I believe posts like that quoted are what drove/is driving members away.

It's an affliction. To be pitied.

[Bagger John - #3785]

I don't think a moderator should participate in conversations about "Hot Topics".   The job is to moderate and ensure the Rules of the Road are followed.   It is impossible to separate who one is debating if, that person has the authority to influence/moderate more than all the other participants.  That does not mean I think Willow has been unfair, just that the position carries a lot of authority.

Not going to vote in the poll, but I am going to interject the following:

I used to admin the VRCC site, back in the day before its current staff took over the club and the forums. I currently co-own a communications electronics related forum whose political discussions and meanderings can become quite...spirited, particularly when the membership can't color in the lines and spills the politically charged stuff into the Tech areas. I also co-owned another motorcycle related forum in the early 2000s. Consider my following thoughts accordingly:

I've seen heavy-handed moderation drive users away. I've also witnessed a laissez-faire approach drive them away because people felt that troublemakers weren't being dealt with sufficiently. I've been called a saint, a devil and late for breakfast - often, all three in one day.

My thoughts on having such a site position (and how I conduct myself on the forum I own) is that I stay away from the opinion/drama-related content and focus instead on the site's core interests (in the case of the electronics board, amateur radio technology and theory). Those of you with very long memories of the VRCC's forums might remember that I primarily targeted troublemakers and bots, while staying clear of most of the hoo-hah present on the General section of the site. I did contribute a lot to the old Tech forum - too bad that content was lost with time.

What's best for this forum? It all depends on what the owner's objectives are. As a whole I see far less problems from this crowd than I do on some other hobby/lifestyle boards. Maybe we're more mature, or more cohesive, or simply don't need a babysitter.

[Moonshot_1]

You are a moderator of an internet board not an umpire.

You get to play the game.

[Jack B]

No. I don’t believe so.

The issue my be less posts about riding and more posts on off topic issues which have cause a separation.

.

I would rather see more post about motorcycles and less posts about green bean recipe’s etc.

[The emperor has no clothes]

No. I don’t believe so.

The issue my be less posts about riding and more posts on off topic issues which have cause a separation.

.

I would rather see more post about motorcycles and less posts about green bean recipe’s etc.

green bean hater !

[POPS 57]

What are rules for if not followed. Someone as to be the grown up.   Its sad that some people can't just play nice.   P.S. no one has ever changed my mind on this or other sites.   But there is always some bucket head that thinks they can.  

[Foozle]

Personally, I've never felt moderation of the board to be excessive or heavy-handed.  

For me, the creation of a dedicated outlet for non-Valkyrie (i.e., blatantly pot-stirring) threads was an absolute Godsend.

Failing to provide this option wouldn't have driven me away, but it would have largely restricted me to the Tech forum.  I once again find value in accessing the "general" board.

For those who wish to partake, kudos for providing a separate mudhole in which to wallow.  

Terry

[Bagger John - #3785]

For me, the creation of a separate board for non-Valkyrie (i.e., blatantly pot-stirring) threads was an absolute Godsend.

For those who wish to partake, kudos for providing a separate mudhole in which to wallow.  

This is the approach I/we took on the electronics forum. Most sites which cater to this specific target audience tend to run conservative, so one of the premises of the newly created site was that ALL could have a voice.

It worked right up until A) the extremists began mud-slinging, and B) they thought that tolerance implies permission to pollute the entire forum with...spew.

One thing any site owner must keep in mind these days is the federal law/regulation known by the acronym "FOSTA". As an owner, my first and foremost goal is to keep the other owners (and the site itself) out of legal hot water by nipping potential illegal content in the bud.

Hint: Using an open forum to actively promote and organize the actions of ANTIFA or any number of other extremist factions is a good way to find your site 404ed by the DoJ. My lowering the boom on a few who were doing just that drove a lot of members away and got some pretty choice epithets hurled in my direction, but it was for the good of the forum itself.

If anything I'd strictly enforce the segregation of content and make sure controversial stuff stays OUT of the rest of the forum sections. Burn your moderation juice there if need be.

[DIGGER]

I feel the forum has to have rules same as cars have to have traffic rules.  Willow has pulled my posts a time or two…..but I didnt know if they would pass the test or not when I posted.   Didnt get my feelings hurt over it.    I would rather have Willow doing the job than someone else.  

[old2soon]

        We Are ALL individuals. Our views Are different than some others and I Still git the gimlet eye when I mention i ride a M/C. We as Riders Drivers some Pilots have RULES that Must be followed. I've had posts pulled one modified recently but I've P Md Carl and he has P Md me back stating the WHY of post pulling. I have been practicing restraint as of late and my posts seem to have survived me turnin down the rhetoric. The Rules of the Road here pretty well lay it out for Members. And has been pointed out to me just cuz I said did NOT mean it should be said. Some posts on the PaM board Have wrankled me a might but lookin afore I leap be helpin. No need fer me to vote. RIDE SAFE.

[Oss]

We need more secretary audition posts

And the bikini parades were welcomed by many during those pms winter months  


Perhaps we need more zen yoga ?


remember this poll?
http://www.valkyrieforum.com/bbs/index.php/topic,4798.0.html

carl does a good job and considering his self admitted lack of certain filters maybe even a great job

[scooperhsd]

No. I don’t believe so.

The issue my be less posts about riding and more posts on off topic issues which have cause a separation.

I know my seat time isn’t what I want it to be and posting ride reports just isn’t easy.

It’s been a terrible couple years with politics and added Covid on there just doesn’t make good conversation.

The old saying of bar etiquette no talking politics and religion comes to mind.

Right on.

Is Willow perfect ? No, but are any of us  ? Again no. But I do believe he is doing the best he can to keep things as civil as possible. The only possible suggestion I would have for the moderators (and I think they already do this) is when they are doing moderating - let it be known at the top of their post.

Otherwise - I think they should participate (following the Rules of the Road, like they expect everybody else to).

[Jess from VA]

The owners of VRCC, a private club, get to decide how to run their forum and what they will allow and not allow by rules (which provide for some flexibility).  It's take it or leave it, and I am good with this.

Carl is the principle moderator, and I think he does the job the best he can, and as fair and consistent between members as he can (which is the hard part), but he is human and not infallible (though he may claim otherwise).  

I may not agree with every rule, or every ruling, but mostly I do.  And I am satisfied that, taking care to avoid the words (and pictures) I must, I can have free speech to say what I want to.  I do get censored sometimes, and I know why every time, and have never complained or appealed.  Most of my missteps have come from anger, and I think Carl (and others) may have done the same.   mea culpa

I think Carl can moderate, and still post as a regualar member all he wants.  He's been here from the beginning, and being moderator can be no fun, and stepping up and doing the unpopular job should not mean he cannot post as a regular if he wants to.  

I do not think moderating has driven people away (except perhaps those who needed to be driven away).  I think that is more related to some of the current events subject matter of the General (and now PaM) boards.  I'm good with those subjects and am glad we can talk about them here, with some limitations (requiring reasonableness, courtesy and respect).

A lot of people migrated to Facebook, and that is their prerogative.  Facebook is leftist wrong and should be boycotted IMHO.  I'll never join any big tech leftist censorship platforms and personal monitoring programs.  They can all suck my big.... toe.   

[Robert]

Carl is a decent moderator he just needs to turn down the intensity and allow a bit more freedom of discussion and take a pause on the delete button.

As long as the rules of the road are observed the post should stand. I must admit recently it has been nice lately to have that delete eased a bit.

Carl I dont think should be restricted from posting either.  

In some posts lately there has been more freedom of expression without the deletion or ridicule on the posts and the board member's actually expressed their opinions without breaking the rules of the road and actually may do it more often.

It actually encouraged the exchange of ideas no matter how mundane to a superior mind and the banter never got out of hand. I have not seen one person that once posted an idea thought it favorable to delete his post.

It seemed lately and the PAM board was actually used for what its intended purpose and had a bit more open exchange.

We are not all going to agree, but we can all exchange ideas without malice.

[3fan4life]

The rules are posted for all to see.
If anyone has been driven away because they were asked to follow the rules, then maybe they shouldn't have been here in the first place.

I've had multiple posts pulled  over the years.

Some, I pretty much knew why.

Others I was clueless.

I may have gotten miffed but I can't say that I was angry.

I have great respect for Willow and I don't envy the task of moderating this board.

He should have the right to post along with the rest of us.

Overall, I think that he does a pretty good job of walking the line.

At times I can see his irritation with some members.

But, I can also see where some of those members could irritate Ghandi himself.

Not that I'm comparing Willow to Ghandi.

Paul Tuttle maybe but not Ghandi 

To those who say this should be a motorcycle only board.

I have been on some of those.

They are boring as crap.

To those who believe it should be a free for all.

I have one word for you.

Twitter.


There needs to be rules and there needs to be a "Beat Cop" to make sure the rules are followed.

All we can ask for is that the "Beat Cop" be fair.

I believe that he is.

[msb]

Quite simply, the sheer lack of motorcycle-related posts on a motorcycle forum...or considering there is a "General Board", the lack of otherwise interesting posts that actually take ones mind away from  the bullsh** we see and hear every day from all other forms of social and news media and which continue to be  regurgitated on here, is what is driving members away. That and at times a lack of common  respect for others' opinions. I can get all that crap from numerous other sources if I want. I appreciate those who do continue to make interesting and worthwhile posts that foster good conversation and debate, whether they are motorcycle-related or not... Willow does a good job of moderating as far as I'm concerned.

[The emperor has no clothes]

Quite simply, the sheer lack of motorcycle-related posts on a motorcycle forum...or considering there is a "General Board", the lack of otherwise interesting posts that actually take ones mind away from  the bullsh** we see and hear every day from all other forms of social and news media and which continue to be  regurgitated on here, is what is driving members away. That and at times a lack of common  respect for others' opinions. I can get all that crap from numerous other sources if I want. I appreciate those who do continue to make interesting and worthwhile posts that foster good conversation and debate, whether they are motorcycle-related or not... Willow does a good job of moderating as far as I'm concerned.

I can’t remember the last ride post I did. (Actually I can, but it’s been a while) I thought I’d retire and ride till my hearts content. I even figured on riding my blue bike in Alaska for the summer. I might have 2k in these past 18 months. It has been very disappointing to say the least. It has seemed life has conspired against me with many different reasons. It sucks !

I’ve been contemplating sneaking out for a ride next week after our company goes back to Alaska. I will definitely do a report. We used to have lots of ride reports. Facebook has killed us.

[crow]

The only moderation, imho, needed, is this " general board" needs to calm down "just a bit".  Kinda like Ricky Vaughn's first professional baseball pitch .   All the craziness needs to stay on the crazy board and not here.

[Robert]

Did you ever have that kid in school that was a kiss butt and was always buzzing around, the one that really couldn't do much, so he always hung around the bully?

 6 posts on this post is a great example of nothing to say, yet always saying something, sometimes inappropriate, yet it goes on.

[Hook#3287]

My only suggestion would be that the reason be given for a post being pulled.

That way it's a learning experience for all.

[..]

We used to have lots of ride reports. Facebook has killed us.

There are far fewer there.

[3fan4life]

My only suggestion would be that the reason be given for a post being pulled.

That way it's a learning experience for all.

I have often thought that it would be good to be told "why" a post was pulled.

I haven't always known which rule that it broke.

Knowing that would help in not doing it again.


But I can see how that could greatly increase the time our moderators spend moderating.

[carolinarider09]

Regarding the notion of "motorcycle related" posts.......

Maintenance issues and activities related to that are motorcycle related.  Other activities that support motorcycle "activities" include, as noted by some, ride reports.  

I do post ride reports on my Facebook page.  But only my friends can see them (at least that is what Facebook says).  I don't post them on the MEWE page I have because the quality seems to be a little less and, the people I have have been riding with for the last 20 or so years, are not on MEWE.  

For instance, I posted, over the last four days, a review of a ride we took back in 2013 out west, including Glacier National Park and Hells Canyon.  

Every ride we have taken this year, of which there are five (each of which is over 1,000 miles)  has associated videos and photos which I post on Facebook.  

I have a Rumble "page" where I have been posting the videos.  I suspect anyone that wants to can view the videos (which are sort of ride reports).  

Here is the issue, concern, etc.  Posting on Rumble as well as here and on the two other forums I participate in (ST1300 and Goldwing) has a potential for allowing someone to know I/we are not home.  

I know...

So.....  since it was mentioned I shall endeavor to post links to those videos here as well.  I truly don't remember if I did that in the past.   (you know old age and stuff).

So....Here is a link to some rides this year.

https://www.gl1800riders.com/threads/recent-rides.464738/

And a portion of the last ride we did in July down home from Galax, VA.

https://rumble.com/vkbkdn-blue-ridge-parkway.html

[Rams]

My only suggestion would be that the reason be given for a post being pulled.

That way it's a learning experience for all.

I have often thought that it would be good to be told "why" a post was pulled.
I haven't always known which rule that it broke.
Knowing that would help in not doing it again.
But I can see how that could greatly increase the time our moderators spend moderating.

Agreed.    That's why moderators make the big bucks. 

Rams

[Valkorado]

Still no vote, but you guys know me better than to be without comment.    

There have been numerous times I've thought the moderation was far from moderate.  Willow is not above the fray by any means.  Most recently, when Willow insinuated that I am doomed to eternal damnation in the fiery pits of hell, the "lighten up" option came to mind.  The comment also reinforced my belief that Willow considers his "ordained" power to judge others is much greater than it actually is, and perhaps he should glance in the mirror from time to time.  Humility is not Willow's greatest trait.

In order to keep a civil environment, the moderation must be civil.  In my opinion civil does not always have to mean respectful, because some posts do not invite respect.  But, as he often reminds us, we must strive to remain civil at the least.

I have not always succeeded in that respect, but I do try.  As I've said, I harbor no real animosity toward anybody on this great board.  Willow included.  His moderation has pissed me off "bigly" at times but as I've said, even though Willow plays in the sandbox, he is co-owner of it as well.  He doesn't always play nicely or by the rules, but he clams otherwise. Some borderline hypocrisy there at best.

I guess the RotR interpretation, rule bending and rule enforcement are pretty much at his whim.  I'm okay with that for the most part.  It is what it is.

The VRCC ROCKS!  

+1 to Oss' suggestion.  Those posts have a way of soothing the souls of all the savage beasts around here.  

[Moonshot_1]

Maybe there needs to be another board added. Like the P&M board.

Call it

THE THUNDERDOME BOARD

No moderation.

TWO POSTERS GO IN, ONE COMES OUT.

We would poll the audience to determine the victor.

Then ride our Valks down the highways in a rampage.



I'm in.

[Valkorado]

Maybe there needs to be another board added. Like the P&M board.

Call it

THE THUNDERDOME BOARD

No moderation.

TWO POSTERS GO IN, ONE COMES OUT.

We would poll the audience to determine the victor.

Then ride our Valks down the highways in a rampage.



I'm in.

      

[Jess from VA]

Off topic, but... (ComSec)

Here is the issue, concern, etc.  Posting on Rumble as well as here and on the two other forums I participate in (ST1300 and Goldwing) has a potential for allowing someone to know I/we are not home.  


Just never post any ride reports until you are back home.  And being vague about dates is always good.  And avoid ever saying something like .... we always take this ride in late April, or her birthday, or any other dates certain.

What I really avoid is ever posting future plans to be gone at dates certain.

And nothing wrong with lying and saying... my two (nonexistant) USMC sons and their wives and German Shepherds will be staying at the ranch when we're gone (well, don't over do it).  

(Not that it's likely the thugs who would break in ever read VRCC, but more popular social media could indeed be trolled for targets.)

And lights on timers, and leaving a radio on and other signs of occupancy are also good.

[Willow]

... when Willow insinuated that I am doomed to eternal damnation in the fiery pits of hell, ...

This is certainly not the place to argue what was said but I never came close to that.  Your interpretation must be reading a lot into what you see as insinuated.  Actually I'm not generally given to insinuation.  I will pretty much say exactly what I mean.

[MarkT]

Can't comment on my actual position regarding this thread.  As a club sponsor with a business relationship, divulging that could impact that relationship negatively.  So it's not that I don't have a stand in this bailiwick.  I have learned through experience to keep my cards close to my vest - don't provide more information than the audience actually needs to know - or suffer the consequences when that info is used against you.  BTW I have been a member of this club since it's inception, the first week - and was asked to co-admin by Gale (Oz).  I declined as I was too busy with my exhaust business so Gale asked Lamonster (Lamont Bryden) to co-admin instead.  I had the tech background while Lamont was a welder.  Now our vocations have flip-flopped.  I didn't poll.

I should disclaim, I have made stupid posts business-wise here and in the Valk forums, repeatedly.  Considering I am both an enthusiast and a source/merchant for you, my family/client/customer community.  Those roles crossover at times.  I have usually not cared enough to shut up.  Not being strictly a business man.  Sometimes shoot myself in the foot.

I have provided over 20 years of tech tips - where I focus most of my effort here.  Unfortunately a lot of them have disappeared.  With the loss of so many others.  I wish they had been backed up somewhere.  A lot of great data lost forever.