Queen Mary, Preserve or Scrap?

[Rams]

After decades of rocky seas in Long Beach, Queen Mary in danger of sinking. Can it be saved?
https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2021-06-01/queen-mary-could-capsize-without-urgent-repairs-report-shows

In the 85 years since its maiden voyage, the RMS Queen Mary has survived rogue waves, transatlantic crossings and even a world war.

For the last five decades, it’s enjoyed a second life docked in Long Beach, riding waves of popularity and tough times as a tourist attraction.

But the historic ship is now facing its most challenging voyage yet.

After years of neglect by a string of operators, the Queen Mary is so creaky and leaky that it needs $23 million in immediate repairs, according to a trove of court documents and inspection reports released last month. There is growing concern that if something is not done soon, the ship could fall into critical disrepair and be in danger of sinking.

Can it be saved or, should it be saved?

Rams

[Robert]

Sure it can be saved all it takes is money 

[Chrisj CMA]

How much will it cost to scrap it?

[Rams]

How much will it cost to scrap it?

According to one report I saw, about the same cost as preserving it for another 25 years.   A bit over $100 M IIRC.
IMHO, it really comes down to ROI.   It's a tourist draw for some folks.   How much does it bring in versus the cost of retaining it in some form or fashion.

Rams

[Chrisj CMA]

How much will it cost to scrap it?

According to one report I saw, about the same cost as preserving it for another 25 years.   A bit over $100 M IIRC.
IMHO, it really comes down to ROI.   It's a tourist draw for some folks.   How much does it bring in versus the cost of retaining it in some form or fashion.

Rams

Then why is even a question?  Repair it and keep a National treasure

[scooperhsd]

The USS Bon Homme Richard (an amphibious assault ship) had a fire that did so much damage that the Navy is scrapping her, rather than essentially rebuilding her. And this ship is less than 10 years old.

The reason for the damage was a crewmwmber sabotaged the Damage Control equipment needed to fight the fire.

[Willow]

We have stayed aboard the Queen Mary as it is run essentially as a floating hotel.  I'm sure the Queen Mary brings in enough financially to justify doing whatever repairs are needed.

My understanding is that she is sitting on supports rather than floating.  It certainly doesn't move at all.  I'm not sure how it would sink.

[scooperhsd]

There maybe corrosion leading to leaks below the waterline, but that's nothing a "hotel customer" would see. Such corrosion could also lead to structeral failures.

[sandy]

In 1953 I was aboard her in NY harbor. My Scottish grandparents were leaving go back to England for the Queen’s coronation. I was 5 and got lost wandering her decks. Never forgot that day.

[Kep]

How much will it cost to scrap it?

According to one report I saw, about the same cost as preserving it for another 25 years.   A bit over $100 M IIRC.
IMHO, it really comes down to ROI.   It's a tourist draw for some folks.   How much does it bring in versus the cost of retaining it in some form or fashion.

Rams

Newspaper article says it generates 205.3 million dollars in revenue

[J.Mencalice]

Give it back to the chip eaters and if they can sail it to jolly ol' England before it plunges to the depths of Davey Jones' locker, well then carry on.
Maybe the royals can sell off some of their jewelry and real estate to finance it.
"God Save the Queen saving the Queen"
Here's yer sign!

[Rams]

How much will it cost to scrap it?

According to one report I saw, about the same cost as preserving it for another 25 years.   A bit over $100 M IIRC.
IMHO, it really comes down to ROI.   It's a tourist draw for some folks.   How much does it bring in versus the cost of retaining it in some form or fashion.

Rams

Then why is even a question?  Repair it and keep a National treasure

Because, in this case, the Queen Mary and I suspect some of our other "treasures" aren't being visited and aren't paying their own way.   This isn't like the Viet Nam Memorial Wall or the Marine Corps War Memorial (Iwo Jima) that takes very little maintenance.   These ships require a huge and expensive amount of maintenance to keep them above the surface.  

article says it generates 205.3 million dollars in revenue

Generating revenue?   That tells me that all those dollars are due to folks coming to see the QM.   Which I don't accept as truth.   The QM may see a lot of visitors but, I don't buy that folks are coming to Long Beach to see the QM.   That may have been true at one time but, I have my doubts that it is true now.   The QM is just another site to see while folks are there.   It's not generating that revenue all on it's own.

Rams

[Willow]

Generating revenue?   That tells me that all those dollars are due to folks coming to see the QM.   Which I don't accept as truth.   The QM may see a lot of visitors but, I don't buy that folks are coming to Long Beach to see the QM.   That may have been true at one time but, I have my doubts that it is true now.   The QM is just another site to see while folks are there.   It's not generating that revenue all on it's own.

Someone was apparently not paying attention or not bothering to read.  The Queen Mary is operated as a hotel and is very popular as such.

The generated revenue is the price paid at the QM, not an estimate of what visitors to the Queen Mary spent in Long Beach. 

[Moonshot_1]

We have stayed aboard the Queen Mary as it is run essentially as a floating hotel.  I'm sure the Queen Mary brings in enough financially to justify doing whatever repairs are needed.

My understanding is that she is sitting on supports rather than floating.  It certainly doesn't move at all.  I'm not sure how it would sink.

Climate Change.

[98valk]

this is the ship that needs to be saved, the SS United States

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_United_States

[Moonshot_1]

After reading the article.,,

It seems that it has been a struggle to maintain and upkeep the ship and has been for years.
I don't see anything that would change this for the future.

I would think the challenge and the cost would continue to get worse almost exponentially as the deterioration advances.

I would be for scraping the ship.

Save the interior pieces, the things that identify the QM and create a hotel and museum on shore with that which would be saved.

If they couldn't maintain and upkeep the ship in the past, the odds are against them doing it in the future.



 

[Rams]

Generating revenue?   That tells me that all those dollars are due to folks coming to see the QM.   Which I don't accept as truth.   The QM may see a lot of visitors but, I don't buy that folks are coming to Long Beach to see the QM.   That may have been true at one time but, I have my doubts that it is true now.   The QM is just another site to see while folks are there.   It's not generating that revenue all on it's own.

Someone was apparently not paying attention or not bothering to read.  The Queen Mary is operated as a hotel and is very popular as such.

The generated revenue is the price paid at the QM, not an estimate of what visitors to the Queen Mary spent in Long Beach.  

Not an accurate statement.   Generating revenue doesn't mean the hotel made that much.

Read between the lines:

Wu noted that a pre-pandemic economic impact report found that $115.2 million in spending from visitors, tourists and event vendors associated with the Queen Mary in Los Angeles County generated $205.3 million in economic output and $6.1 million in tax revenue in 2019 and supported more than 2,200 jobs, among other items.

“While profit margins for the Queen Mary operation have always been thin, and during the major repair and renovation periods operational income was negative ... our commitment to her legacy and preservation has never faltered,” he said.

Rams

[Jess from VA]

It's in south Los Angeles.   Three or four Peacekeepers should take care of it.   

 

[Willow]

Not an accurate statement.   Generating revenue doesn't mean the hotel made that much.

Read between the lines:

Wu noted that a pre-pandemic economic impact report found that $115.2 million in spending from visitors, tourists and event vendors associated with the Queen Mary in Los Angeles County generated $205.3 million in economic output and $6.1 million in tax revenue in 2019 and supported more than 2,200 jobs, among other items.

“While profit margins for the Queen Mary operation have always been thin, and during the major repair and renovation periods operational income was negative ... our commitment to her legacy and preservation has never faltered,” he said.

I stand corrected on the words of the article.

What caught my attention was reference to people visiting the Queen Mary.  There may be some who simply visit but most are there as a place to stay for one or more nights.  I guess they're counting what those guests spend for meals, memorabilia and such while they're there.

[Jersey mike]

The Queen Mary holds no significance to me and with that I’d have to use the immortal words of Philo Beddoe “scrap the Caddy Clyde”.

[RP#62]

If if were to sink, I'm not sure anyone would notice.  Its in pretty shallow water.




If I were going to donate money to save ships, it would be ones like this:



-RP

[MarkT]

I sailed on the QM in '53 when my family returned from Geneva, my birthplace, after my Dad's work helping the survivors of the war restore their lives.  Of course at 18mo. I have no recollection of it.  I have no opinion if it should be preserved.  I suspect it's not a viable business venture so there maybe should be other reasons to save it.  Like for history, or as a museum.  It will eventually dissolve into nothing anyway.  As will we all.

[Reb]

IMO, Other "ship saving" projects should take priority.

One in particular


https://battleshiptexas.org/

The only dreadnaught left that fought in WWI and WWII

[Rams]

IMO, Other "ship saving" projects should take priority.

One in particular


https://battleshiptexas.org/

The only dreadnaught left that fought in WWI and WWII

Ya know, I do understand the historical and emotional significance of the Battleship Texas but, I would also suggest that all ships are built with an expected life span and eventually expected to be scrapped or used as artificial reefs if not a loss during a battle.   I'm not suggesting she's at that point but, once she has stopped paying her own way, she's probably done all she can do.  That decision is probably to be made by the bean counters.

Rams

[Jess from VA]

If the Queen Mary is a hotel or attraction, let a hotel chain or Disney or Universal Studios buy and fix it and run it privately.

Restoration at public expense should be US US Naval vessels (though some we took from other countries)

At the end of World War II, the four German sailing vessels then extant were distributed to various nations as war reparations. Horst Wessel was won by the United States in a drawing of lots with the Soviet and British navies, and requested by the United States Coast Guard Academy's Superintendent. In 1946, she was commissioned as the U.S. Coast Guard Cutter Eagle.



She is one of only two active commissioned sailing vessels in the United States military today, along with USS Constitution which is ported in the Boston Harbor (and the world's oldest ship of any type still afloat; launched in 1797, served as a training ship for the United States Naval Academy during the American Civil War, retired from active service in 1881 and designated a museum ship in 1907).



If we can't afford to preserve US battleships, I propose we still preserve their main gun 16" cannons.  I would like to see one of these fired in person.

[Rams]

An impressive site  sight!

Rams

[98valk]

An impressive site!

Rams

"sight"

that was a full broadside from one of the New Jersey class ships. it was only done for a demonstration.
it was documented how many feet it moved sideways from the recoil.
normally only one gun from one a turret at a time. while reloading and another turret would fire.

[Rams]

"sight"

that was a full broadside from one of the New Jersey class ships. it was only done for a demonstration.
it was documented how many feet it moved backwards from the recoil.
normally only one gun from one a turret at a time. while reloading and another turret would fire.

Fixed the spelling error but, it doesn't appear to me that ship would or could move "back" based on the photo and the orientation of the guns.   Sideways?   Yeah, I'd buy that.  I believe that would be to the "Port" side but, I was never a Navy dude or dudette.   

Rams

[Jess from VA]

I have read several times that the shapes on the water next to the ship are from the ballistic blast, and that the giant ships were not propelled sideways in recoil.  

In any event, wherever you were on that ship, it must have been an out of body experience to have those guns going off.  

Sort of like the Mayor of Hiroshima..... What the hell was that!!

Those IA and NJ class battleship cannon (together with their early computer aiming systems) represent the highest pinnacle in traditional gunnery the world will ever see.  (Larger guns were made, but they were not effective beyond terror weapons that might be able to hit Paris, like the German Buzz bombs and V2s)

All replaced now by advanced artillery, rockets, cruise missiles, smart bombs, drones and other tech.  

And, in the absence of world wars with only local conflicts, everyone has grown skittish about lobbing 2700 lb shells at an enemy from over the horizon (and damn the collateral damage).

Have you seen the new "ninja bomb" (AGM-114R9X) that is a bladed anvil with no explosive at all, used to take out one or more guys (and no one else)?
https://www.militarytimes.com/off-duty/military-culture/2019/05/14/ninja-bomb-is-a-bladed-anvil-that-shreds-terrorists-with-no-risk-of-collateral-damage-pentagon-says/

Just the guys in the car (or room).

That is definitely not going to buff out.

[Willow]

If the Queen Mary is a hotel or attraction, let a hotel chain or Disney or Universal Studios buy and fix it and run it privately.

Restoration at public expense should be US US Naval vessels (though some we took from other countries) 

...

The Queen Mary is owned and operated by the city of Long Beach, California.  Restoration or scrapping is not at our expense and is not our business to decide.

[RP#62]

The 8 remaining battleships are also privately funded if I remember correctly.  That's why I always buy T shirts and stuff when I go visit them.

-RP

[98valk]

"sight"

that was a full broadside from one of the New Jersey class ships. it was only done for a demonstration.
it was documented how many feet it moved backwards from the recoil.
normally only one gun from one a turret at a time. while reloading and another turret would fire.

Fixed the spelling error but, it doesn't appear to me that ship would or could move "back" based on the photo and the orientation of the guns.   Sideways?   Yeah, I'd buy that.  I believe that would be to the "Port" side but, I was never a Navy dude or dudette.   

Rams

fixed it. I meant backwards from the front of the barrel hence sideways.

Port equals left, both four letter words easy way to remember. so right is starboard.    The centerline of the ship determines port or stbd.

[Jess from VA]

Some civilian sailors I knew wore and a red sock on the left and a green sock on the right.

Which is just fine for port and starboard, as long as you are facing the bow.    

[Reb]

An impressive site!

Rams

"sight"

that was a full broadside from one of the New Jersey Iowa class ships. it was only done for a demonstration.
it was documented how many feet it moved sideways from the recoil.
normally only one gun from one a turret at a time. while reloading and another turret would fire.

New Jersey is the ship... Iowa is the class

[Jess from VA]

Thanks Reb.  I thought that was the case (Iowa Class), but the article I found with pictures used both, so I thought they knew.   Relying on the internet... right? 

[scooperhsd]

Thanks Reb.  I thought that was the case (Iowa Class), but the article I found with pictures used both, so I thought they knew.   Relying on the internet... right? 

Depends on which site on the internet - some are more accurate than others. "Battleship New Jersey" on Youtube is done by the director of the Museum, and Ryan has good information if your interested in that kind of stuff.

[Reb]

Thanks Reb.  I thought that was the case (Iowa Class), but the article I found with pictures used both, so I thought they knew.   Relying on the internet... right?  

Depends on which site on the internet - some are more accurate than others. "Battleship New Jersey" on Youtube is done by the director of the Museum, and Ryan has good information if your interested in that kind of stuff.

Watched several of his videos,  very knowledgeable on naval history and battleship operations  

[Reb]

IMO, Other "ship saving" projects should take priority.

One in particular


https://battleshiptexas.org/

The only dreadnaught left that fought in WWI and WWII

Ya know, I do understand the historical and emotional significance of the Battleship Texas but, I would also suggest that all ships are built with an expected life span and eventually expected to be scrapped or used as artificial reefs if not a loss during a battle.   I'm not suggesting she's at that point but, once she has stopped paying her own way, she's probably done all she can do.  That decision is probably to be made by the bean counters.

Rams

I agree to an extent, My opinion is greatly biased on the emotional significance. I look at this as a marvel of naval engineering - considering is was commissioned in 1914 with coal fired triple expansion steam boilers. It shelled the beaches of Normandy, as well as Iwo Jima. Private funding for her preservation is to place it in a permanent drydock - which I hope keeps it around for future generations to probably ignore  

[98valk]

An impressive site!

Rams

"sight"

that was a full broadside from one of the New Jersey Iowa class ships. it was only done for a demonstration.
it was documented how many feet it moved sideways from the recoil.
normally only one gun from one a turret at a time. while reloading and another turret would fire.

New Jersey is the ship... Iowa is the class

thanks.
how did I forget that?, esp since I got to go on the Iowa when it was in drydock in the Philadelphia Shipyard.
seeing it in drydock was amazing, its like an iceberg, so much of the ship is below the water line.

[scooperhsd]

The New Jersey is in Camden NJ. Probably a nice ride destination