The beast and the beauty: HK USC (the UMP civilian version)

[Savago]

Gentlefolks

The California State law says that you can buy only 1 new gun per month. So in one year (12 months) you could in theory buy 12 new guns from a store.

I use to joke with my wife that unless you buy 1 new gun per month, you would be in violation of the law.
 

I have an admission to make... I didn't 'follow the new gun law' this year... in the sense that until last month, I didn't buy my quota of new guns this whole year. Damn... I didn't buy any gun at all in the whole year.
 :'(

But that changed with my new acquisition: HK USC in .45ACP.

The motivation: growing up in the 80's and watching the movies, I learned about the HK MP5 and it would be the dream to buy one in full auto glory, but we cannot have that unless you are filthy rich (thanks Reagan!) and find one pre 1985 and pay $20K to $30K for it.

The civilian version (HK SP5: https://hk-usa.com/hk-models/sp5/) is really hard to find and crazy expensive. The new imports are sold as a pistol, and thanks to the California micro-stamping law, we cannot buy them... unless you pay 3x more (think $8K, e.g. http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=1756797&highlight=HK+SP5) from someone that is free of the restriction i.e. LEO.

The more affordable alternative to the MP5 is the UMP, which being full auto is not sold to civilians... but there is the USC (https://hk-usa.com/hk-models/usc/) to save the day.

It is the civilian version of the UMP45 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler_%26_Koch_UMP), made 'safe' thanks to the combination of Germany export laws plus the ban on imports of non sport rifles (thanks Bush!) with added assault rifles ban (thanks Clinton!).

Some people hate it, because it is a pale shade of what the UMP is... but I can't complain, it is the closest thing I can legally buy in the occupied California that won't break the bank.

Of course, being California that also means that the carbine has to be featureless i.e. has to have an atrocious fin wrapped around the grip and you cannot add a forward grip.

Enough bitching about the law, let's talk about the gun.

Range report: shot 150 rounds of Federal Premium FMJ 230gr.

The gun worked flawlessly, extremely precise.

What draw may attention was:
a) It is really quiet, I guess the combo of sub-sonic ammo + long barrel helps.
b) What you feel is basically the 'thump' of the bolt group moving back during the cycle (a bit too heavy in my personal view given it is just shooting a pistol caliber).
c) The rifle is so light. Seriously, makes my Marlin 1894 feel comparatively heavy.

The iron sights work fine, I was shooting initially at 25 yards and next at 50 yards. I think 100 yards should work fine with this gun (limitation will probably be the ballistics of the .45acp).

The ergonomy is not great though, mostly due to the fan in the grip plus the fact that the buttstock doesn't allow adjustments.

I'm 6ft1 and felt that the gun is kinda short for me... it would be nice to be able to change the buttstock and make it a bit longer (but I guess that would probably somehow violate CA laws?).

Cleaning and lubbing is a breeze, just 2 allen bolts (requires a 5mm wrench) to remove the buttstock and the gun has basically 4 main parts:
a) Upper receiver with the attached barrel.
b) Bolt assembly.
c) Lower receiver with the trigger group.
d) recoil spring.

I've ordered some picatinny rails from HDPS, planning to add a red dot.

So far, a really nice rifle.

Its limitations when compared to a semi UMP45 (small magazines, fixed buttstock, etc) are due to federal and Cal laws (fin) but it is a good value offered by HK to us who are bound to such limitations.

I can understand though why lots of people invest the money and the time to convert it to a semi UMP5 which is its original form (https://tommybuilttactical.com/usc-to-ump-conversion/).

In any case, I'm having a good time being able to do the 'hk slap' and shooting such fun carbine.
:-)

[Savago]

The beast:

[Savago]

Compared to the beauty (Marlin 1894 CSBL):

[Savago]

It also came with a cool rifle range bag:

[Savago]

And with the rails installed:

[Jess from VA]

Nice .45acp carbine.  

I like pistol caliber carbines (in my favorite pistol calibers).  

I like them even more when they take common pistol magazines (though those are mostly shorter than the longest mags that may come with the carbine).

I set out to get one in 9mm, but bought the Gen 1 Kriss Vector carbine in .45 when it came out (they later added 9 & 10 mm).

Interestingly, you don't get as much velocity increase as you might think going from a 5 inch 1911, to a 16 inch barrel carbine.  For instance, a Federal 230 gr. Hi-Shok JHP in a 5"bbl goes 845fps, but in a 16"bbl goes 919fps.  Only a 74fps increase for 11 inches of extra bbl.  Though it looks like the lighter +p .45 ammo gets a faster push from the longer barrel.

http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/45auto.html

In an urban environment (or indoors) a pistol caliber (carbine) will be less likely to exit the area (or house) and do potential unintended damage downrange, compared to an AR 223.  Though the AR gives far better velocity and target damage.

I have the vertical forward grip, with dropdown bipod (and a light/laser combo and a red dot, with cowitness flip ups).  Zeroing the irons, then dot, then laser took some time at the range.  It's not light, but not bad.  And it takes Glock .45 mags (Model 21 13s fit flush to the mag well vs the 28 rounders it comes with).  Buttstock can fold up and lock to frame.  Folding charge handle is on the left (like the MP5), and takes some getting used to.





Of course, the real advantage to this rotating bolt design is in a short barrel sub machine gun (with very little muzzle flip) and suppressed.  But I can only dream.




And beats the crap out of an old Thompson SMG for controllability.


And I haven't practiced any of this (yet).   


 









 

[Savago]

@meathead: thanks! It was a gift from my daughter (I mentioned to her that when I was a kid, I had one pair of socks nearly identical). Since the MP5 is a child's wish, I thought was fitting to take the photo with the socks.

@Jess: how do you like the Kriss vector? I've read that it has a pretty innovative recoil mitigation system (i.e. it seems to redirect some of the recoil downwards).

I was split between the Kriss vector, the HK USC and the CZ Scorpion Evo 3. The Kriss seems to be the more modern design, while the CZ seems to have the better ecossystem (i.e. parts and upgrades). The HK seems to be the softer shooter (at least from some YT videos I saw).

Since HK only cares about their military/security forces contracts and their motto is 'because you suck and we hate you' (https://monsterhunternation.com/2007/10/09/hk-because-you-suck-and-we-hate-you/), it seems that is harder to source the USC (it is listed as 'limited production' in their website) while the Kriss and the CZ should be easier to buy.

Plus, is the closest thing to a MP5/SP5 I can buy.

I would love to have a Kriss in 10mm and a CZ in 9mm.
 

[Jess from VA]

The recoil mitigation is amazing in the innovative bolt design of the Kriss. (lots of videos on it)

But to be clear, recoil (kick) is only mitigated a little, it is muzzle flip/rise that is nearly eliminated, which is much more relevant in a short barrel full auto subgun, than in a carbine length semiauto.

And I estimate the price about double the HK.  Which seems a waste when you are only talking a semiauto carbine and not a subgun the design was really created for.

I picked mine up barely used by a motivated seller for about 2/3 - 3/5 price of new.  And with a bunch of extras, including a stack of long mags (OE, and Glock conversions which may actually work better than OE).

I've heard the HK saying for a long time (their motto is 'because you suck and we hate you'); it's funny.

I have some of most manufacturer's firearms, but never a single HK.  Nothing against them, just they were always higher priced than most all competitors.  

In my advancing years, I have decided I have to have a real reason to get something new or different beyond...  wow, that looks cool, I want one.  

This attitude was strengthened when VA passed the FFL requirement to transfer anything new or used.  I have never been a fan of paper trials; now more than ever.

Now a question;  is that three screw cover of the space behind the pistol grip a CA-specific abortion?  What complete nonsense.  I suppose if you take it off, it makes you a 20 year felon.  So many of these supposed safety requirements actually make the gun less controllable, and therefore less safe, all in the name of political correctness and the LOOK.  (like heavy triggers)

[Serk]

I have some of most manufacturer's firearms, but never a single HK.  Nothing against them, just they were always higher priced than most all competitors.  

H&K boycotts Israel, thus I boycott them.

https://www.jpost.com/arab-israeli-conflict/germanys-heckler-and-koch-to-stop-selling-guns-to-israel-505600

They do make nice guns though!

And Jess, can you pencil me in on your will to get that Kriss please? It's on my short list of guns I still don't have any still want...

[Savago]

Now a question;  is that three screw cover of the space behind the pistol grip a CA-specific abortion?  What complete nonsense.  I suppose if you take it off, it makes you a 20 year felon.  So many of these supposed safety requirements actually make the gun less controllable, and therefore less safe, all in the name of political correctness and the LOOK.  (like heavy triggers)

Pretty cool you managed to grab a Kriss for a nice price!

I like HKs, they are well made guns but a bit overpriced if you ask me. When it comes to pistols, I think Sigs are a much better value (not to mention better triggers). Plus bonus points to Sigs since they (new models) are made in the good and old US of A.

Answering the question: that fin is a requirement due to the assault rifles ban law in California. Basically if you want to be able to drop the magazine as intended (i.e. clicking in a pad or button), the rifle has to be made 'featureless'.

That means: no grip (or a fin wrap around the original grip to stop you from being able to hold it properly with your thumb), no flash hiders, no front grip, no collapsable stock, etc.

If you want to have the 'evil' features, the magazine has to be fixed (i.e. requiring to basically disassemble the upper from the lower receiver to be able to swap an empty mag for a full one). The semi auto rifle becomes basically almost a brake action to be able to swap the magazine.
 

Removing the wrap would magically turn the gun into an assault rifle according to California law, which requires special registration, can only be transported *and* stored (even in your home) in a safe and you are open to random visits by the ATF to inspect your guns. Too much trouble, not worth it.

Keep in mind that this rifle was designed under the Clinton's assault rifles ban, the grip is fused with the stock with a small hole as a workaround to the restrictions back in the late 90's and early 2000's.

But even that is not good enough to comply with the Cal gun laws.
 

[Savago]

H&K boycotts Israel, thus I boycott them.

They do make nice guns though!

Yeah, I agree that blows (Israel is probably our only true ally in the Middle East).

But I won't stop buying cool stuff due to political reasons... specially guns.
 

[Jess from VA]

And Jess, can you pencil me in on your will to get that Kriss please? It's on my short list of guns I still don't have any still want...

When I drafted (cheap) wills for people, I refused to include any specific item bequests.  Some people wanted 30-50 of them, and I had to type them out on my IBM Selectric.  I told them to make a list and give it to their chosen executor (if you can't trust him, why did you appoint him?) (or give that stuff away to whom you choose while you're still alive, but near the end). 

But your request brings up a perplexing subject for me.  No one in my immediate family has any interest in firearms at all (beyond my 92yo mom already having her own self defense pistol).  Remote family are strangers.  I do not relish the idea of my lifetime collection being sold off in bulk for 25 cents on the dollar to some estate buyer (cheater) to convert to quick cash.  Or worse, being turned over to some G agency to destroy (never happen).  The NRA is out; no new suits for Wayne.

I guess I'll jump off that bridge, when I get close to it.  But, I'll keep you in mind my friend.   

[Serk]

But, I'll keep you in mind my friend.   

Heh, they'd get lots of love in the free air of The Republic, with 4 gun loving kiddos to hand 'em off to when I shuffle off this mortal coil...

(Hey, can't blame a guy for trying!)