EV vehicle info

[Patrick]

Seems we went thru and ' all electric ' home mode 40-50 years ago. Remember how that went !

Most homes of that era had electric baseboard and floor registers because the electric bills were outrageous and boilers or furnaces were then installed.

[scooperhsd]

It would fail miserably in the Great Plains.... and places where it gets REALLY cold.

They should work pretty well generally at I-40 and south. The colder it gets, the worse an all-electric home will work.

In my NC house, we figured out that the heat pump had died when Jan and Feb electric bills were each over $400  (in 1997) (using the electric heat strips in the airhandler). The rest of the house (water heater, cooking) worked fine as electric. The cooktop we replaced with gas after we had the gas furnace put in, never did change to gas water heater.

The house here in KC would need some substantial electric upgrades to convert from gas to electric. Stove in the upstairs kitchen is not a problem (it was before we put in the gas stove), but replacing the water heater and heating the house needs some help. If you want to throw in EV charging - certainly THAT will need some help.

[Robert]

Interesting video on Lithium and Cobalt mining that sheds some light on the battery situation.

Electric Vehicles' Battery Problem

https://youtu.be/9dnN82DsQ2k

[carolinarider09]

From the Governor of Washington State, Jay Inslee. 

March 12, 2021 - Inslee vetoes 2030 gas car ban, citing road usage fee concerns.  (Gee I wonder where we heard that before?)

And then:   March 29, 2022 - Washington State Democrats have enacted a plan that would aim to ban most non-electric vehicles in the state by 2030.  Gov. Jay Inslee (D) signed a bill last week that sets a target for all vehicles of the model year 2030 or later that are sold, purchased, or registered in the state to be electric. (Wonder if that includes vehicles that already registered????)

Ok…. First things first, the wording of the news report “says for all vehicles of the model year 2030 or later that are sold, purchased, or registered in the state to be electric”

Now, in reality if the Governor is really serious about this the I am ok with it. Why????  Because it means that all vehicles (trucks, cars, buses, vans, railroad engines, motorcycles) must be electric.

Think of it……after 2029 you could no longer register or purchase a fossil fueled, car, truck, bus, motorcycle, or train engine.

And it has to cover all powered devices that could use fossil fuels as well.  That includes lawn mowers, leaf blowers, trimmers, edgers, tractors, etc.

And, as someone has already stated, this should also be expanded to heating sources for homes and offices.   All newly installed heating sources must be non fossil fueled. (Fire places are exempt). 
  
After all, sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander….

Now the next question, where does the electric come from.  Turns out Washington state has lots of hydro electric power.  You know the power from those lakes and rivers and such where the levels rise and fall as the water is used.  This not only provides for interesting things having to do with wild life but also erosion and other things.  I thought using hydro for power was not environmental "good".

They also have a lot of coal and natural gas power and I think one lonely old nuclear power plant. 

So, to make things right, no new fossil fuels plants can be built or purchased in the state of Washington after 12/31/2029.   Also, no power may be purchased for areas outside of the state of Washington unless that power is produced from non-fossil fueled sources (no gas or coal).

Going a step in the right direction April of 2021, A Maryland-based nuclear energy company has signed a partnership agreement this week with a public utility company in Washington state to develop, build and operate a commercial advanced nuclear power reactor. (Wow!!!!)

[url=https://whitehousewire.com/2022/03/29/washington-enacts-plan-to-ban-non-electric-cars-by-2030/]https://whitehousewire.com/2022/03/29/washington-enacts-plan-to-ban-non-electric-cars-by-2030/[/url]

[url=https://electrek.co/2021/05/13/wa-gov-inslee-vetoes-2030-gas-car-ban-citing-road-usage-fee-concerns/]https://electrek.co/2021/05/13/wa-gov-inslee-vetoes-2030-gas-car-ban-citing-road-usage-fee-concerns/[/url]

[url=https://destinationpackwood.com/how-to-get-electricity-in-washington-state/]https://destinationpackwood.com/how-to-get-electricity-in-washington-state/[/url]

[url=https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/washington/articles/2021-04-02/advanced-nuclear-reactor-proposed-in-washington-state]https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/washington/articles/2021-04-02/advanced-nuclear-reactor-proposed-in-washington-state[/url]


Ohhhh, (just in case you were wandering about what happened last week) March 23, 2022 - Washington state Gov. Inslee signs bill limiting the sale, manufacturing, importing and distributing of firearm magazines that hold more than 10 rounds of ammunition.

[scooperhsd]

Ohhhh, (just in case you were wandering about what happened last week) March 23, 2022 - Washington state Gov. Inslee signs bill limiting the sale, manufacturing, importing and distributing of firearm magazines that hold more than 10 rounds of ammunition.

Other "interesting" aspects on that magazine ban -
it only applies to new stuff coming into Washington State. Anything already there will be grandfathered.

[Jess from VA]

Where is the law that requires all politicians to be lunatics?

Wait, I guess we don't need one.  It appears to be a purely volunteer army of lunatics.

I foresee an old technology returning to Washington state.  Horses, buggies and wagons.

New transportation being brought to market. (I have no idea of miles per hay and oats)


I really like Fredrick Remington art and have a number of his prints up on my walls.

[Jersey mike]

From the Governor of Washington State, Jay Inslee. 

March 12, 2021 - Inslee vetoes 2030 gas car ban, citing road usage fee concerns.  (Gee I wonder where we heard that before?)

And then:   March 29, 2022 - Washington State Democrats have enacted a plan that would aim to ban most non-electric vehicles in the state by 2030.  Gov. Jay Inslee (D) signed a bill last week that sets a target for all vehicles of the model year 2030 or later that are sold, purchased, or registered in the state to be electric. (Wonder if that includes vehicles that already registered????)

Ok…. First things first, the wording of the news report “says for all vehicles of the model year 2030 or later that are sold, purchased, or registered in the state to be electric”

Now, in reality if the Governor is really serious about this the I am ok with it. Why????  Because it means that all vehicles (trucks, cars, buses, vans, railroad engines, motorcycles) must be electric.

Think of it……after 2029 you could no longer register or purchase a fossil fueled, car, truck, bus, motorcycle, or train engine.

And it has to cover all powered devices that could use fossil fuels as well.  That includes lawn mowers, leaf blowers, trimmers, edgers, tractors, etc.

And, as someone has already stated, this should also be expanded to heating sources for homes and offices.   All newly installed heating sources must be non fossil fueled. (Fire places are exempt). 
  
After all, sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander….

Now the next question, where does the electric come from.  Turns out Washington state has lots of hydro electric power.  You know the power from those lakes and rivers and such where the levels rise and fall as the water is used.  This not only provides for interesting things having to do with wild life but also erosion and other things.  I thought using hydro for power was not environmental "good".

They also have a lot of coal and natural gas power and I think one lonely old nuclear power plant. 

So, to make things right, no new fossil fuels plants can be built or purchased in the state of Washington after 12/31/2029.   Also, no power may be purchased for areas outside of the state of Washington unless that power is produced from non-fossil fueled sources (no gas or coal).

Going a step in the right direction April of 2021, A Maryland-based nuclear energy company has signed a partnership agreement this week with a public utility company in Washington state to develop, build and operate a commercial advanced nuclear power reactor. (Wow!!!!)

[url=https://whitehousewire.com/2022/03/29/washington-enacts-plan-to-ban-non-electric-cars-by-2030/]https://whitehousewire.com/2022/03/29/washington-enacts-plan-to-ban-non-electric-cars-by-2030/[/url]

[url=https://electrek.co/2021/05/13/wa-gov-inslee-vetoes-2030-gas-car-ban-citing-road-usage-fee-concerns/]https://electrek.co/2021/05/13/wa-gov-inslee-vetoes-2030-gas-car-ban-citing-road-usage-fee-concerns/[/url]

[url=https://destinationpackwood.com/how-to-get-electricity-in-washington-state/]https://destinationpackwood.com/how-to-get-electricity-in-washington-state/[/url]

[url=https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/washington/articles/2021-04-02/advanced-nuclear-reactor-proposed-in-washington-state]https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/washington/articles/2021-04-02/advanced-nuclear-reactor-proposed-in-washington-state[/url]


Ohhhh, (just in case you were wandering about what happened last week) March 23, 2022 - Washington state Gov. Inslee signs bill limiting the sale, manufacturing, importing and distributing of firearm magazines that hold more than 10 rounds of ammunition.

Just wait until they try hauling some stuff through those mountains with electric trucks.

[hubcapsc]

Just wait until they try hauling some stuff through those mountains with electric trucks.

They'll be tempted to haul extra stuff since electric motors can be so much more powerful
and torquey...

-Mike

[F6Dave]

With Tesla battery pack prices skyrocketing past $10K, the insurance company totaled the car and sent it to the wrecking yard. So far, the wrecking yard owner hasn't found buyers for anything from his wrecked Tesla collection.

That's weird. The cheapest Teslas cost $40,000.00 plus... did you see this totaled $40,000.00 car that
merely needed a $10,000.00 battery?
-Mike

I didn't see either junked Tesla, but wouldn't assume they were worth $40K. Tesla has been making cars for well over a decade, and the oldest Model 3s are now valued just over $20K. I could see an insurance company totaling one of those if it needed a 'mere' $10,000 part, plus installation.

And who knows, the owner may have played a part. With electron guzzling 80 MPH speed limits and chargers over a hundred miles apart, Wyoming isn't ideal for a Tesla. EV owners are switching back to ICE power at an increasing rate, so that could have been a factor. I have a friend who did something similar: he was towing his boat through Wyoming and something on the trailer broke. When a tow truck arrived he commented that he was sick of dealing with boat problems, and would sell it if someone offered a decent price. The driver made him an offer and he sold it on the spot!

[Jess from VA]

My whole life, I've enjoyed other people's boats.   

[hubcapsc]

EV owners are switching back to ICE power at an increasing rate, so that could have been a factor.

https://afdc.energy.gov/data/10567

-Mike

[F6Dave]

EV owners are switching back to ICE power at an increasing rate, so that could have been a factor.

https://afdc.energy.gov/data/10567

-Mike

Interesting. According to that chart, EV sales peaked in 2018, dropping in 2019. It doesn't show later years, but surely the drop continued in 2020 with COVID, and may not have recovered much in 2021 due to chip shortages.

The trend of EV owners switching to ICE power was documented by a U of Cal study, finding that 18% of PEV and 20% of hybrid owners in California had switched back. The switch might be accelerating because early adopters were likely 'true believers', while later EV buyers weren't as invested in the narrative and readily switched when they discovered their EV's negatives. Those include much higher insurance rates and painfully slow charging on household current. A Bloomberg car writer said his Mach E added only 3 miles of range per hour on household current!

But here's some promising news: the US Energy Information Administration's latest Annual Energy Outlook predicts that in 2050, 79% of new vehicle sales will still be ICE powered, compared to 92% today. Maybe global shortages are helping people understand the importance of abundant, affordable energy.

[Patrick]

OK, I'm not very bright, so, I have another dumb question.

What the heck is ICE ? Other than what I plunk in my whiskey,,,,,

[scooperhsd]

Internal Combustion Engine.....

[Jersey mike]

Just wait until they try hauling some stuff through those mountains with electric trucks.

They'll be tempted to haul extra stuff since electric motors can be so much more powerful
and torquey...

-Mike

I’d like to see an EV work all day against a Kenworth, Peterbilt, Volvo or Freightliner or Mack. Run the AC or heater, run the air compressor for the brakes, run the lights, haul 80,0000 lbs and log endless miles, park for 8 hours and do it again the next day.

[Avanti]

Do not forget to run the reefer!

[Avanti]

Let us think about the largest of hybrid powered vehicles that have been around for quite a long time, Diesel Powered Locomotives. They go nowhere without fuel.

[scooperhsd]

I wouldn't call a train locomotive a hybrid. It's better described as large diesel generators attached to large electric motors that drive the train.

[Jersey mike]

This is a bit off topic but this is what our governor is attempting regarding the use of natural gas.
There are millions of nat. gas users here in NJ. I’m suppose to transition my house from nat gas to electric?

https://newjerseymonitor.com/2021/09/08/growing-chorus-of-critics-want-to-hit-the-brakes-on-n-j-electric-heating-mandate/

The way I see it, y'all can like it, or vote in some different governors... some green wokeness
is already crumbling in places like Seattle and San Francisco.

-Mike

If we ever get another Republican Governor again I’ll be surprised. Almost all of NJ is in full woke mode.

Thanks for the link to New Jersey Monitor, I just came across this from back in February.

https://newjerseymonitor.com/2022/02/03/cost-correction-draws-more-criticism-for-murphys-electrification-plan/

“ Opponents of electrification benchmarks in Gov. Phil Murphy’s plan to cut greenhouse gas emissions redoubled their criticism this week after the state revealed it understated the cost difference between electric and gas boilers.

The Department of Environmental Protection, which is mulling new regulations for boiler permits, said in a rule proposal unveiled in December that electric boilers would cost between 4.2% and 4.9% more to operate than their gas counterparts. But a correction issued by the agency Tuesday said running electric boilers would cost between 4.2 and 4.9 times more than their fossil fuel equivalents.”


And the article continues on.

[hubcapsc]

I’d like to see an EV work all day against a Kenworth, Peterbilt, Volvo or Freightliner or Mack. Run the AC or heater, run the air compressor for the brakes, run the lights, haul 80,0000 lbs and log endless miles, park for 8 hours and do it again the next day.

You'd like to see it because you think battery technology has reached its zenith and has
nowhere else to go, or some other reason?

It is already clear that electric motors are king when it comes to power and torque. If I
add in my opinion, then I think today's relatively low-power-density batteries will
be yesterday's news in five years and stone-age compared to what will
be available in ten years. I think Kenworths, Peterbilts, Volvo, Freightliner and Mack
diesels will be mostly the same as they are now.

-Mike

[Patrick]

Internal Combustion Engine.....

Aaah, OK. Simple, and, I couldn't figure that out or find it in the 'net.
Thanks

[F6Dave]

I’d like to see an EV work all day against a Kenworth, Peterbilt, Volvo or Freightliner or Mack. Run the AC or heater, run the air compressor for the brakes, run the lights, haul 80,0000 lbs and log endless miles, park for 8 hours and do it again the next day.

You'd like to see it because you think battery technology has reached its zenith and has
nowhere else to go, or some other reason?

It is already clear that electric motors are king when it comes to power and torque. If I
add in my opinion, then I think today's relatively low-power-density batteries will
be yesterday's news in five years and stone-age compared to what will
be available in ten years. I think Kenworths, Peterbilts, Volvo, Freightliner and Mack
diesels will be mostly the same as they are now.

-Mike

Battery technology is advancing, but not nearly as fast as many people believe. The last major breakthrough was Sony's commercialization of lithium ion batteries in 1991. For 2 decades capacity increased at about 8% per year, but that has slowed to about 5%. Much of the improvement we see these days result from more efficient processors and innovations like better cooling of EV battery packs.

As good as modern batteries are, petroleum still packs far more energy into the same sized package. Gasoline's energy density is about 70 times greater than Li-ion batteries. Battery power is great for tools, electronics, and light vehicles. But don't expect battery powered airliners any time soon.

[scooperhsd]

EVs would make MUCH more sense if you could get electric power while driving down the road, not needing the batteries until you left a "major highway" ( Interstate, US highways outside of cities, maybe state highways the same). But this electrification would also cost a great deal of money...

[Jersey mike]

Here’s another push toward EV’s. By 2026…4 years, new cars must avg 40mpg. That’s 35 around town and 45 highway.

https://www.nj.com/news/2022/04/new-vehicles-must-average-40-mpg-by-2026-under-new-us-standards.html

[hubcapsc]

Here’s another push toward EV’s. By 2026…4 years, new cars must avg 40mpg. That’s 35 around town and 45 highway.

https://www.nj.com/news/2022/04/new-vehicles-must-average-40-mpg-by-2026-under-new-us-standards.html

I read 49, not 40...

https://www.transportation.gov/briefing-room/usdot-announces-new-vehicle-fuel-economy-standards-model-year-2024-2026

Standards to require fleet average of 49 mpg by 2026, save consumers money, and advance U.S. energy independence

“Today's rule means that American families will be able to drive further before they have to fill up, saving hundreds of dollars per year,” said U.S. Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg.

In further news, the White House has solved NASA's problem with the mission to the Sun:

"We'll go at night."

-Mike

[Jess from VA]

In further news, the White House has solved NASA's problem with the mission to the Sun:

"We'll go at night."

      (best laugh all week)

[Jersey mike]

Here’s another push toward EV’s. By 2026…4 years, new cars must avg 40mpg. That’s 35 around town and 45 highway.

https://www.nj.com/news/2022/04/new-vehicles-must-average-40-mpg-by-2026-under-new-us-standards.html

I read 49, not 40...

https://www.transportation.gov/briefing-room/usdot-announces-new-vehicle-fuel-economy-standards-model-year-2024-2026

Standards to require fleet average of 49 mpg by 2026, save consumers money, and advance U.S. energy independence

“Today's rule means that American families will be able to drive further before they have to fill up, saving hundreds of dollars per year,” said U.S. Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg.

In further news, the White House has solved NASA's problem with the mission to the Sun:

"We'll go at night."

-Mike

I see your 49, I hope it’s a mistake.

Just for laughs I pulled up the Toyota website. Some cars are close but the hybrids are there already and the trucks don’t come close, look at the 4Runner.

https://www.toyota.com/compare/?srchid=SEM:700000001483645:GOOGLE:71700000083560218:58700007058367379:p63540306510:568130203136&gclsrc=aw.ds&&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIh7Oj6J719gIVGz2tBh2cbwp_EAAYASADEgLITPD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

[Patrick]

Politicians think they can pass a law and it will be done. I think the ICE [ now I know what that is]  can only go so far. It'll be interesting to see how much more they can squeeze out of these engines.

[Skinhead]

The locomotive version of a car or truck, IMHO, is the way to go.  If you optimize a 2 or 4 cylinder to run at is most efficient speed, instead of over a range of speeds, and couple of to a generator driving 2 or 4 motors at the wheels, you can eliminate the transmission, which not only reduces efficiency, but is expensive to manufacture and contains a lot of moving parts.  A smaller version of battery could be used to act as an accumulator, for up the Genny when the battery gets low, and use regenerative braking as well.  This would also eliminate driveability issues the result from engines having to operate over a range of speeds and transmission shifting.  Frictional losses would also be reduced.

[luftkoph]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=19&v=acSdPy38XKU&feature=emb_title

This was fun to watch

[scooperhsd]

The locomotive version of a car or truck, IMHO, is the way to go.  If you optimize a 2 or 4 cylinder to run at is most efficient speed, instead of over a range of speeds, and couple of to a generator driving 2 or 4 motors at the wheels, you can eliminate the transmission, which not only reduces efficiency, but is expensive to manufacture and contains a lot of moving parts.  A smaller version of battery could be used to act as an accumulator, for up the Genny when the battery gets low, and use regenerative braking as well.  This would also eliminate driveability issues the result from engines having to operate over a range of speeds and transmission shifting.  Frictional losses would also be reduced.

Your idea here is not a bad idea. The real plus is that ICE engine could be either gas OR diesel (diesel having more energy content than gas would have an advantage).

[Jersey mike]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=19&v=acSdPy38XKU&feature=emb_title

This was fun to watch

It was a good video. Makes me wonder the future of motor sports? EV Funny cars and Pro stock drag races?

In the video I would have liked to see the power consumption of the EV vs fuel consumption, how many runs can the EV do (especially hauling the truck and trailer) on a full charge vs full tanks of fuel.