Uvalde shooting

[da prez]

 Watched the news this morning.  They had the body camera of officers entering the school. Someone said the officers should have just gone in and put their own life on the line to stop the shooting. The reports comments sucked. I doubt if any of them have been in harm's way. There is a total different mind set when you face harm head on. I am a Veteran  , but not a combat Veteran. That doesn't mean I could act like a T V hero.
 The report of an armed citizen stopping a shooting in Indiana barely made the news.

                  da prez

[MAD6Gun]

 Maybe Ross but that is their job. I'm not a cop but a good friend of mine is. He would have been the first through the door.  These officers were cowards. In the video it shows at least 4 officers armed with most likely M16s waiting outside the classroom. Four? Those four could have stormed in the room. Sure one of them might have been likely shot but the other three would have lit his ass up. It was a cluster in all aspects..

[old2soon]

       And I'm thinking here the leos had ballistic vests on. I understand assessing the situation BUT leos are EXPECTED to run towards danger. I was a volunteer fireman. As soon as we were on scene we Attacked the fire. That time of day in a School armed active shooter report YOU take that Report SERIOUSLY! Anything less Is COWARDICE. RIDE SAFE.

[0leman]

there was/is a lot of conflicting news coming out of this shooting.   One news sorch says that the CHief of police thought the shooter was not in a room with kids and to wait.  So they waited.   Sounded like one the officer's wife was in the room with shooter and on the phone with him.  They supposedly had to take his gun away from him and remove him from the building. 

Will be interesting to actually hear the total truth of what happened.  so much news so little truths.

[Willow]

Watched the news this morning.  They had the body camera of officers entering the school. Someone said the officers should have just gone in and put their own life on the line to stop the shooting. The reports comments sucked. I doubt if any of them have been in harm's way. There is a total different mind set when you face harm head on. I am a Veteran  , but not a combat Veteran. That doesn't mean I could act like a T V hero.
 The report of an armed citizen stopping a shooting in Indiana barely made the news.

                  da prez

I agree.

People who haven't been in a similar situation should simply keep their mouths shut regarding expectations.  That includes other police officers. 

[f6john]

Watched the news this morning.  They had the body camera of officers entering the school. Someone said the officers should have just gone in and put their own life on the line to stop the shooting. The reports comments sucked. I doubt if any of them have been in harm's way. There is a total different mind set when you face harm head on. I am a Veteran  , but not a combat Veteran. That doesn't mean I could act like a T V hero.
 The report of an armed citizen stopping a shooting in Indiana barely made the news.

                  da prez

I agree.

People who haven't been in a similar situation should simply keep their mouths shut regarding expectations.  That includes other police officers. 

I tend to disagree. I might have crap my pants but if I were there and fully armed and armored up and I heard the cries of those kids, no way I could of held back. Any of you can call BS on me if you like and you could be right.

[DIGGER]

Ya think maybe they didnt want to run into that classroom spraying bullets everywhere and accidently kill more kids?    Can you imagine the public outcry if several kids were killed by police bullets?    Or do you just hope there is no collateral damage and storm in spraying bullets around?

Were there any windows in that room the good guys coulda shot him from?

[f6john]

Ya think maybe they didnt want to run into that classroom spraying bullets everywhere and accidently kill more kids?    Can you imagine the public outcry if several kids were killed by police bullets?    Or do you just hope there is no collateral damage and storm in spraying bullets around?

Were there any windows in that room the good guys coulda shot him from?

How many kids survived??? The longer they were in there the more fearful they had to become. Can you imagine the feeling that no one cared enough to come for them even after their cell phone calls went out? At this point I’m not condemning anyone in particular.

[f6john]

So many reports that you can’t be sure of but I remember a report that one of the women killed had her husband restrained and put in cuffs for trying to intervene and I believe from memory that he was a law enforcement officer. The stink of the fiasco is going to be applied to a lot of folks just because they were there.

[Willow]

I tend to disagree. I might have crap my pants but if I were there and fully armed and armored up and I heard the cries of those kids, no way I could of held back. Any of you can call BS on me if you like and you could be right.

Okay, I'll take you up on that.  It's imagined speculation from the comfort and safety of your living room chair.  It's BS.

Could've.  I wish people would stop typing "could of".

[f6john]

I tend to disagree. I might have crap my pants but if I were there and fully armed and armored up and I heard the cries of those kids, no way I could of held back. Any of you can call BS on me if you like and you could be right.

Okay, I'll take you up on that.  It's imagined speculation from the comfort and safety of your living room chair.  It's BS.

Could've.  I wish people would stop typing "could of".

Everybody is entitled to their opinion. Only person that knows for sure is me. It’s obvious that many people share that position especially those who were there and did nothing.  They will have to live with their decision for the rest of their lives. The young man in Indianapolis only had a handgun and no armor, but he answered the call.

[Jess from VA]

I don't know the facts, but the guy at the mall probably got the drop on the shooter, or an angle from cover, or even from behind.  It's common sense.

Little different going through a door with an AR aimed at the door from the other side.

There was supposedly a window in the door that might have been shot through or out, then shot through.  Or at least used to locate the shooter in the room.  I said it before; a guy with a ballistic shield goes through the door with two behind him, quickly.  Maybe lob one or two flash-bangs in, maybe not.  Once through, the two behind lean out to each side and shoot the perp.  They have rifles and go semiauto single shots, not full auto, they aren't going to hit random kids.  You get a sight picture, you take the shot.  Then some more.

There were also drop ceilings. 

You do not sit on your thumbs for an hour.   

[f6john]

I don't know the facts, but the guy at the mall probably got the drop on the shooter, or an angle from cover, or even from behind.  It's common sense.

Little different going through a door with an AR aimed at the door from the other side.

There was supposedly a window in the door that might have been shot through or out, then shot through.  Or at least used to locate the shooter in the room.  I said it before; a guy with a ballistic shield goes through the door with two behind him, quickly.  Maybe lob one or two flash-bangs in, maybe not.  Once through, the two behind lean out to each side and shoot the perp.  They have rifles and go semiauto single shots, not full auto, they aren't going to hit random kids.  You get a sight picture, you take the shot.  Then some more.

There were also drop ceilings. 

You do not sit on your thumbs for an hour.   

The guy at the mall only had the element of surprise which is formidable advantage. But you have a handgun up against a long gun at what the police described as a significant distance with nothing but what you would find in a food court between him and the gunman. I find that at least as dangerous as trained officers with equal armament and ballistic vests and shields running the wrong way from gunfire, just saying

[Jess from VA]

Yes, I just watched on the news... a long shot with a .22.  Probably not a long barrel either (for carry).  That was some nice work.  No info on how many shots taken though.  If one, that's some really fine work.

[Skinhead]

I heard 10 shots by the good guy in another post here.  Most .22 semis are 10 rnd. single stack mags.  It would be interesting to know the make and model of .22 used.  My Ruger mark IV is accurate as all get out but not very concealable due to barrel length.

[Jess from VA]

I heard 10 shots by the good guy in another post here.  Most .22 semis are 10 rnd. single stack mags.  It would be interesting to know the make and model of .22 used.  My Ruger mark IV is accurate as all get out but not very concealable due to barrel length. [/i]

I was the author of that post too.  

Yeah, I'd like to know the make & model too.  And how many hits out of 10, and where (purely academic, not gruesome)?  But that's unlikely.    

My .22s are heavier/longer target pistols, not carry models, and I would not be inclined to invest in a carry .22.  But I'm glad he did.  I used to wouldn't go below a 9mm, but I have a P380 (match bbl) with Crimson Trace (with top expanding ammo) that goes everywhere now.

The guy is asking for anonymity (and I don't blame him), but his name is out there anyway.  

It appears the Hero of Greenwood will not face the same treatment as the Hero of Kenosha. 

[h13man]

Being a resident of Indiana, as of last night they just published his name but nothing on his carry weapon. Uvalde, what was the total time of the shots fired and the time he was neutralized? School also failed in security practices. Better yet where did this perp get all the $$$$ to perform this crime? Again "it can't happen here mentality" and nobody knew how to handle it.

[Serk]

I'm torn on the armchair quarterbacking, but I also recognize anything I might add as exactly that...

I am in a FB group that's primarily current and retired LEO.... And they had this to say. Not my words. I don't agree or disagree as I've never been in their shoes, but I found their insight interesting:

When the Uvalde shooting first occurred, we all discussed (as I am sure many of you did) why entry was not made.  The general consensus, and what made the most sense, was that the shooter had locked himself inside an interior room, with a steel door / frame, and no key was made available through incompetence in the IC structure.
It never occurred to us that no effort would be made whatsoever.  It never occurred to us that negotiations would be attempted while the shooter was still engaged in killing.  It never occurred to us that a key would not even be requested until a bunch of BORTAC Chads showed up as mutual aid.
We've all now seen the video.
This piece was written yesterday by a man named Doug Deaton, and he hit the nail on the head.
The Uvalde situation is just another symptom of an ongoing and widespread leadership crisis in policing. The dirty little secret of American law enforcement is that inaction and cowardice are rarely punished. Boldness in young officers is commonly mistaken for recklessness and stomped out through the use of frivolous complaints and negative entries in performance evaluations that will follow them for rest of their career.
Most citizens might be surprised to learn that many police departments do *not* select supervisors on the basis of professional competency, knowledge, ability, initiative, or leadership skills.
There are many phenomenal leaders in American policing. That doesn’t change the fact that the supervisory ranks of law enforcement are thoroughly infected with cowardice, incompetence, laziness, and people who fear confrontation. You always get what you incentivize.
Do you want to ensure that another Uvalde doesn’t happen? Start with this:
1 - Stop hiring Toy Poodles and expect them to act like German Shepherds when the wolf comes. They either have “it” or they don’t. It’s like artistic ability. You cannot put into someone what God left out. No amount of training will turn a Cocker Spaniel into a Pit Bull.
2 - Citizens don’t give a damn about police officers’ puppeteering and dance skills when their kids are being shot at. That stuff may be great for PR when there is no threat but it doesn’t reduce crime, it doesn’t make criminals love the police, and it breeds mental weakness. Stop rewarding and incentivizing that type of mindset among police officers.
3 - Hire and promote “hunters” and critical thinkers with a bias for action. Prioritize candidates who possess a thirst for knowledge and an aversion to mental and physical weakness.
4 - Punish and purge the cowards and the slackers. It’s high time to stop rewarding padded resumes and get back to placing a premium on leadership abilities at the operational level. Create and reward a law enforcement culture that values genuine professional knowledge, initiative, judgment, boldness, and decisiveness.
As a former cop I'd only add this:
5 - Seek out individuals who understand the spirit of the law, and who will use discretion in applying statutes to the population instead of slavishly following command directives from "cops" who are politicians rather than police, seeking to appease whatever political whims are popular.

[carolinarider09]

A well stated and excellent summary of what and how and why and the steps to take.

[Jess from VA]

That is about exactly what I think (and wrote) about failure of leadership and initiative.  Careerism over duty.  Self over mission.

The moral decay of our society cannot help but infect our military and police (and of course G).

I really did not see a lot of it (though some of it) when I served on active duty (1984-92), but my time at HQ USDVA (1992-2110) was simply awash with it.  And why I quit 4yrs short of full retirement (with 30% loss of pension), but salvaging my sanity. 

[DarkSideR]

The school board held it's first board meeting since the shooting. It was really intense. I don't know how those people could sit up on that stage and take what the public was giving them.

- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3Cw4zx2T1Q&ab_channel=WFAA

[JimC]

I'm torn on the armchair quarterbacking, but I also recognize anything I might add as exactly that...

I am in a FB group that's primarily current and retired LEO.... And they had this to say. Not my words. I don't agree or disagree as I've never been in their shoes, but I found their insight interesting:

When the Uvalde shooting first occurred, we all discussed (as I am sure many of you did) why entry was not made.  The general consensus, and what made the most sense, was that the shooter had locked himself inside an interior room, with a steel door / frame, and no key was made available through incompetence in the IC structure.
It never occurred to us that no effort would be made whatsoever.  It never occurred to us that negotiations would be attempted while the shooter was still engaged in killing.  It never occurred to us that a key would not even be requested until a bunch of BORTAC Chads showed up as mutual aid.
We've all now seen the video.
This piece was written yesterday by a man named Doug Deaton, and he hit the nail on the head.
The Uvalde situation is just another symptom of an ongoing and widespread leadership crisis in policing. The dirty little secret of American law enforcement is that inaction and cowardice are rarely punished. Boldness in young officers is commonly mistaken for recklessness and stomped out through the use of frivolous complaints and negative entries in performance evaluations that will follow them for rest of their career.
Most citizens might be surprised to learn that many police departments do *not* select supervisors on the basis of professional competency, knowledge, ability, initiative, or leadership skills.
There are many phenomenal leaders in American policing. That doesn’t change the fact that the supervisory ranks of law enforcement are thoroughly infected with cowardice, incompetence, laziness, and people who fear confrontation. You always get what you incentivize.
Do you want to ensure that another Uvalde doesn’t happen? Start with this:
1 - Stop hiring Toy Poodles and expect them to act like German Shepherds when the wolf comes. They either have “it” or they don’t. It’s like artistic ability. You cannot put into someone what God left out. No amount of training will turn a Cocker Spaniel into a Pit Bull.
2 - Citizens don’t give a damn about police officers’ puppeteering and dance skills when their kids are being shot at. That stuff may be great for PR when there is no threat but it doesn’t reduce crime, it doesn’t make criminals love the police, and it breeds mental weakness. Stop rewarding and incentivizing that type of mindset among police officers.
3 - Hire and promote “hunters” and critical thinkers with a bias for action. Prioritize candidates who possess a thirst for knowledge and an aversion to mental and physical weakness.
4 - Punish and purge the cowards and the slackers. It’s high time to stop rewarding padded resumes and get back to placing a premium on leadership abilities at the operational level. Create and reward a law enforcement culture that values genuine professional knowledge, initiative, judgment, boldness, and decisiveness.
As a former cop I'd only add this:
5 - Seek out individuals who understand the spirit of the law, and who will use discretion in applying statutes to the population instead of slavishly following command directives from "cops" who are politicians rather than police, seeking to appease whatever political whims are popular.

As a retired leo, I could not have said it better! There were plenty of incompetent chicken sh=t supervisors in my area. (along with good ones) When this travesty happened, I could picture how it went down in my head long before the films came out.
JIM

[..]

I hope they are proud. Poor Reuben. 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11033871/Bodycam-shows-Uvalde-cop-held-tries-classroom-teacher-wife-lay-wounded.html

[f6john]

Can’t say what I’m thinking.