Deviation, Darkness, Discovery...

[DDT (12)]

Deviation, Darkness, Discovery...  

The times are a changin’! Times have always changed throughout human history, and the wisest among us have always changed right along with them. Some, however, are often well ahead of their time, while others are always a bit tardy to the new game... You can count this stodgy old rider wannabe in that latter number, I reckon.  

I'm not automatically reluctant to change per se, and I truly don't fight it... as such... I do, on the other hand, require a need and/or some sense of it being necessary or at least worthwhile. I’m not normally one who changes important stuff merely for the sake of change. I’ve learned that while all progress requires change... all change is not necessarily progress!  

Many years ago, I began to hear of this 'dark side' phenomena catching on in our riding community. Immediately, some riders excitedly proclaimed the virtues of such a 'change', while others at the same time were predicting tragic crashes and certain death in ignominious flames. I just passively observed from the sideline... I'd found a motorcycle (MC) rear tire that seemed to suit us just fine, and it offered rather high mileage compared with other MC tires; therefore, one of the primary reasons for going that way was for the most part muted in my view.  

My primary reluctance, though, was based upon the simple fact Honda dealers didn't want to fool with those for 'liability' reasons, they said. Since my lifestyle led to having to buy tires all around the country from many different dealers, most for only a one time shot, it just made sense for us to stick with motorcycle tires... and so we did...

The dueling opinions continued as did the migration of ever more riders to the 'dark side'. I saw no great practical advantage for us back then, nor could I see any compelling need or reason for us to join that parade, but I didn't really have any objection to an experiment either... In time the dealers stopped helping us altogether due to the age of our girl (elder abuse, if you ask me), so that no longer mattered... Then this situation arose...  

I needed to replace an unexpectedly cracking rear MC tire on the eve of a big adventure, but none were readily available, and tires had been a bit challenging to find lately (we’re still building back better, ya know). A new car tire was in hand, however... Could fate be subtly nudging us in that direction... finally...? We’ve decided to find out what it’s all about, so we’ve made the new adjustment...  

My good friend Big Wolf has mounted the next new rear tire for our girl, our first car tire, so I know nothing at all about it as of this writing. What I do know is that he had chosen that tire as his own next replacement; so, therefore, that was good enough for us. I think it is a ‘Yokohama Avida S 34’ brand 205/65/16, but I don’t actually recall for sure at the moment.  

That really doesn’t matter to us, anyway... We are going to explore this new avenue based largely upon the always in the past well-reasoned judgement by Jerry that I’ve personally observed on innumerable occasions... We have a big road trip in mind coming right up in the next couple of days, so we’re going to have an opportunity to give that ‘pathway to doom or delight’ a vigorous workout to evaluate its suitability for us...  

Will our seriously powered girl and her seriously underpowered rider meet their demise in some tragic crash and die in ignominious flames? Stay tuned... If we do go that way, at least we can pass knowing our experiment provided sufficient fodder to rekindle the long ongoing debate. Dark side or nyet? Possibly the Russians already know, but I surely don’t... nyet yet, that is...  

DDT  

 
Update: A break in the weather and a break from Honey-Dos for Jerry yesterday presented us with a wonderful opportunity to go for a day ride... and a test ride for our girl and her curious rider. We took that opportunity, and... guess what? We didn't crash or die in flames! Not even close...

It did feel a wee bit different, but I'm not at all sure how much of that was real and how much had been imagined by this first-time dark side rider... OK, there were two other occasions where I'd ridden short distances on other folks' bikes and didn't recall them even being on the dark side until after the ride!  

I'm speculating here, of course, but I'm fully confident I'll quickly adjust to this new tire and its little idiosyncrasies and in no time forget all about anything odd or peculiar... real or imagined. Of course, we could have a tragic crash in the meantime and die in flames... in which case my opinion would be moot.

[..]

Slightly rounded. Nice.

Be aware if going up a step from a gravel lot to blacktop. It can kinda grab and not want to "mount" the step.

[Valkorado]

I needed to replace an unexpectedly cracking rear MC tire on the eve of a big adventure, but none were readily available, and tires had been a bit challenging to find lately (we’re still building back better, ya know).

Wooo-hoooooo!  

In this one instance it may actually be better.  I think once you see the advantages of riding on the Dark Side, you'll be an addict.  Make sure to get your sticker.  I never did get a cookie.

I remember asking you why in the heck ALI wasn't sporting a car tar!  I'll bet she'll be proud as a peacock with her fancy rear end.

Keep racking up the (s)miles, Bruce!  If ya get thisaway give me a heads up.  I'll try to put in an order for some dry weather.

[..]

Was the "cracking" tire an Avon?

[The emperor has no clothes]

“Nyet yet”? 

As I sit here doing my morning routine in the outhouse perusing the board. I nearly spit out my borscht ! Good thing I was wearing my Ukraine shirt. 

I think the only thing you might notice is going over uneven drains, manholes, etc. at slow speed. And that you will used to quick.    Welcome to the dark side of society. 

P.S. great story ! (Again)

[DDT (12)]

Slightly rounded. Nice.

Be aware if going up a step from a gravel lot to blacktop. It can kinda grab and not want to "mount" the step.

Paul,

Jerry and I discussed this, and he explained in further detail that little aspect... I've experienced that with other tires to some lesser degree, but this reminder is both timely and welcomed! Thanks!!!

DDT



Seth,

I am actually eager to get on with the experiment... Based upon all I've heard from so many others, I've never really had any doubts, but being a newbie always carries with it a wee twinge of apprehension and a mild jitter or two. I ain't worried none, though! If I survive any crashes, I'll send up a flare... If I avoid catastrophe, perhaps we can indeed hook up for a (s)mile or two...

DDT



Paul,

Not this time... I have had an Avon or two crack prematurely in the past, but my last five or six rear tires have all been Michelin Commander II tires... this is the second one of those to crack before their time... I doubt I'll be going back to those... or any M/C tire at this point. Well, I do have one of those Michelins still stashed at Troutdude's house, so... we'll see... You know about expectations versus actualities, right...?

DDT




Rob,

Thanks, amigo!!! We didn't really put that new tire 'through the paces' yesterday, but we did traverse many sweepers and ease through some twisties sufficient for yours truly to answer many of his questions and ease his mind considerably by reducing uncertainties about unknowns. Now, go ahead and wrap-up your 'business'... Remember, the job ain't complete 'til the paperwork is done...

DDT

[Beardo]

I’m looking forward to your opinion on how it works for you. I’ve never tried it myself. Personally, I love the feeling of new motorcycle  tires…the bike never handles better than that new tire feeling. I know people do get used to it and can ride every bit as aggressively with car tires, and there are other benefits as well,  but I know near the end of our recent trip, as my tire was getting worn to nothing, I was finding myself excited at the thought of putting on new tires and getting that nice responsive turn-in feeling back. New Bridgestones are being put on in a couple weeks, then we’re heading back to BC for another trip near the end of August.

Enjoy your ride  .

[DarkSideR]

Welcome do the DarkSide.

Being DarkSideR and the obvious authority on riding the DarkSide I can confirm your new tire as worthy. Counter steer will be a bit more, bump steer should be expected and planned for. If you haven't in the past packed a tire plug kit you can/should now start.

Don't forget to bring the cookies!

[Challenger]

And if the new tire doesn't feel just right,  a couple PSI up or down can make a world of difference.  Enjoy.

[cookiedough]

If I rode more than 5K miles per year which I never do,  I would go darkside car tire all the way.  Only makes feasible sense to do it then, but for me,  a cycle tire does handle the corners much better, for me anyways.  I had a car tire on my 98 Valk when got it and although older,  did not like the handling on it cornering as well as a more rounded cycle tire.  The debate continues.....     Am sure I could get use to a rear car tire, but to each their own.    be nice to get 20K miles easily on a rear car tire though vs. ONLY 9K miles on a rear cycle tire, but like said 2-4K miles tops on the Valk per year, for me, a cycle tire is best.

[msb]

I'm going with my Prairie friend Beardo here...there are lots of things I look forward to each time I throw a leg over on one of my old bikes and even a few things that I still get really, really excited about when hitting the road. At the top of the list of the latter category, is getting a brand new set of skins...or even just a rear tire. Especially when combined with a nice curvy mountain road, of which I have many to choose from here, I don't think I can describe a better feeling than that of the absolute smoothness and carving ability that new motorcycle tires gives you. I've ridden others' bikes with CT's for short distances and didn't mind the handling that much, but after so many years in total and 21 years on my Valk, I just can't convince myself to make the switch for a full season to give a CT a proper workout yet. The one thing that keeps niggling at me in the back of my head is those early years when I ran Dunlops on my Valk. With all the 2 up riding I do, there was nothing I could do to prevent those Dunlop rear tires from developing a flat spot in the center way too early into their life. I remember the distinct difference in the feeling when cornering once I had those those little ridges to push through, and comparing that shorter than expected "new tire feeling" to what my now Avons give for an extended period of time.
Now, comparing my riding experiences to yours Bruce, is obviously night & day...with the amount of miles you're still putting on through many different types of terrain, I'm sure you'll get used to the CT in a hurry and realize the obvious benefits it'll provide for you as well. Hey...you might even find yourself warming up to the idea of riding more in the rain, given the many, many reports of improved grip and braking in wet conditions from those in the know (now there's a "glass half full" scenario if there ever was one, eh?)
We'll see how it goes after this year for me...now being fully retired with a bit less disposable income...and a lot more time to put on many more riding kms/miles each year, taking the plunge into the Darkside may just be in my future yet

[rocketray]

my experience with the car tire was ...meh..the handling/cornering is not great but if you just do superslabs the increase in how long the tire lasts is impressive...the size of the contact patch  cornering with a car tire is a lot smaller as you are running just on the sidewall contact patch which is a less rounded strip

[Skinhead]

the size of the contact patch  cornering with a car tire is a lot smaller as you are running just on the sidewall contact patch which is a less rounded strip

Wrong!

[Rams]

Bruce,
I believe that if given a fair opportunity for an honest evaluation combined with the way you ride and the miles you put on Ali, you'll be hooked on the "dark side".  

I'll be surprised if that doesn't happen.   The obvious benefit is the additional mileage one gets out of a CT over a bike tire.   I honestly believe that tire manufacturers build MC tires with less mileage capability to drive sales.   I do believe MC tires could be built/produced to last one hell of a lot longer.   Yeah, MC tires do seem to be a bit softer but I can't honestly say stickier.    No, I'm not a professional rider.

I can honestly say that I rode just as hard with a MC tire as I do with a CT and didn't find a difference in handling that I could not adapt to.    It really only took me about 5 miles to forget all about there being a CT on the back of my first Valkyrie.   I see no reason to backtrack to a lessor or inferior tire now and that's how I view MC tires on my Valkyrie.

Please keep us posted on how this "experiment" goes.

Rams

[hubcapsc]

We didn't crash or die in flames!

Pictures or, as per the accepted orthodoxy, it must have happened!

-Mike

[Jess from VA]

the size of the contact patch  cornering with a car tire is a lot smaller as you are running just on the sidewall contact patch which is a less rounded strip

Wrong!

Yes on easy to moderate leans, the sidewall flexes and you still have full contact (and this is why you want regular all-season radials with flexible sidewalls, and not high performance tires with stiff sidewalls) (this made me worry about run flats (stiff sidewalls), but some have run them and report no problems... still, I think it is cause for concern).

On harder leans, some of the tire comes off the ground, say half, and that half is still a bigger patch than MC tires (at least on 205s).  On the hardest/sharpest leans, a bit more than half may come off the ground, but speed at those kind of leans is slow, not fast (obviously) (like parking lot Uturns).

There is no time you are running on just the edge of the car tire.

But of course, individual tires will vary some, and air pressures also make a difference.  

There are a number of videos out there where they put a camera down there to watch, and you can see it.

[DDT (12)]

All,

The adventure continues... I rode away from my friend's place and the 'birthplace' of a new dark sider yesterday. Rode up into Indianna, then stopped for a night or two. Too soon to offer a reasonably thorough critique of our experience, but I can say I'm struggling to find much difference between the two types of tires! Limited range of conditions, of course, plus not riding both tires on the same stretch make comparisons difficult. I'll know more following the next time out... In the meantime, I am going to write another post with a bit more detail about my observations so far... maybe I'll post it this evening or tomorrow...

DDT

[MarkT]

Bruce,

Here's more info on darkside tire configs.  Now that you won't need one for 20k or so miles.  Well, with your high mileage riding, that might be next Tuesday.

Reposted from a previous thread, same subject.  Now with gas being so expensive, higher mileage from lower RPMs is a good thing.

The narrower the tire, the less it has steering issues.  Also the more rounded the corners, same thing.  The taller the tire, the lower the RPMs with better mileage.  I run the Austone Taxi Tire, also last tire, and have the next one on hand - it's out of production.  I have run a lot of different DS tires, most were 205.  The Austone is the best handling by far. However the Firestone Transforce CV in 195/75R 16C has measurements that are very close and even larger diameter, which I like - the Austone provides excellent MPG; 3500rpm gets 85mph indicated - 80 actual on the GPS, and for me still delivers 34mpg even with those speeds.  And the Firestone is cheaper.  And from a Central America country, not China - source country  is Costa Rica. Was $123.91 with free shipping at tirerack.com last year.  Here's a thread on this tire: http://www.valkyrieforum.com/bbs/index.php/topic,106471.msg1069397.html#msg1069397


I see now available from Amazon at $157 with free shipping.  Size to get is 195/75-R16C  https://www.amazon.com/Firestone-Transforce-Highway-Terrain-Commercial/dp/B07FB1G623/ref=sr_1_4?adgrpid=1342504874154939&hvadid=83906755320252&hvbmt=be&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=164081&hvnetw=o&hvqmt=e&hvtargid=kwd-83907332754213%3Aloc-119&hydadcr=28747_14563306&keywords=firestone+transforce+cv&qid=1659620939&sr=8-4

[h13man]

Still in Indiana Bruce?

[DDT (12)]

Mark,

Thanks for the always helpful reply with lots of good info to digest! So far, I'm thinking the tire we're running right now is pretty doggone good, but still, lots to learn as we ride on... No complaints or issues so far, and I'm having no trouble handling our girl with this new type of tire. The next tire choice will be out yonder in the misty, murky, fog of the future, so naturally I have no idea what we might do then... That Firestone does look interesting, though... Thanks again for being such a valuable resource for the rest of us!

DDT


h13man,

Yep... Laid over another night to recover from the heat yesterday and to avoid the little shower we had here this morning. I plan to leave Columbus in the morning, however, headed sort of westerly/northerly towards the next hole-up place... You do know I don't actually have a plan, though, don't you? I do figure to end-up in Idaho... when I get there... In a week or two... or three...

DDT

[Bigwolf]

It was my pleasure to lead DDT through a mix of intersections, two lane sweepers, straights, and some sharp twisties on his new experience of running “dark side”.  No flames were encountered nor were any medics needed!  To me it appeared to be just another ride over some fun roads.

Bruce, on the other hand, was busy getting acquainted with the characteristics of the new tire.  With all of the strong opinions that are so quickly offered, only a fool would dive into the “dark side” without a generous helping of caution!  Bruce is no such fool!  He did seem to be adjusting to it very quickly but was keeping caution well at hand.  That is a testament to the steadfast endeavor into the depths of discovery and deep thought that I have come to know as the way Bruce thinks and operates.

I have no doubt that, when Bruce has completed this experiment, we will all be treated to a review of the “dark side” far beyond our current thoughts.  I can’t wait to read that report!………but I will have to until he is satisfied that he has reviewed it thoroughly.

Bigwolf