Valkyrie Riders Cruiser Club
June 23, 2025, 01:50:46 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Ultimate Seats Link VRCC Store
Homepage : Photostash : JustPics : Shoptalk : Old Tech Archive : Classifieds : Contact Staff
News: If you're new to this message board, read THIS!
 
MarkT Exhaust
Pages: [1]   Go Down
Print
Author Topic: The Free State of Winston... (The long version)  (Read 1269 times)
DDT (12)
Member
*****
Posts: 4112


Sometimes ya just gotta go...

Winter Springs, FL - Occasionally...


« on: December 07, 2022, 10:41:17 AM »

The Free State of Winston… (The long version)
 
After visiting Natural Bridge Park, Ross and I rode to Double Springs, AL, the county seat of Winston County. We had a look around, then I had an inspiration to stop at the courthouse and seek information. A really nice lady in the County Clerk’s office gave us enough information to really whet our appetites, then she suggested we visit another lady (a local historian of sorts) in the ‘Archives’ building across the street…
 
We did. I bought one of the several books on local history they had for sale, and we chatted for some time with her. We then listened to a local older guy talk about his time in the Army during the Korean War. What a great visit! And that wasn’t all…
 
While seated at the statue outside the courthouse reading plaques and brochures and taking a couple of pictures, a local banker happened by and offered to answer our questions! This turned out to be a most delightful and informative stop!!!
 
Statue in front of the courthouse…
 

 
It’s hard to see in this shot, but there is an American flag to the viewer’s left crossed with the Confederate flag. The ‘soldier’ is clothed in distinctive apparel items resembling both a Union and a Confederate uniform. The soldier holds the hilt of a saber, while his foot is on the broken-off blade. The 'Dual Destiny' statue was to symbolize the end of bitter division, the coming together of the two factions and to represent a step forward in healing the deep wounds caused by that tragic conflict…
 
Winston County, more than most, had sharply divided but very strong feelings about the war and about secession in particular. The large majority of those there who ultimately served in the military during that war served on the Union side, the others who served did so in the Confederate army. Feelings were bitter and they intensified as hardships and the strains of war escalated and became worse with each succeeding year. Reprisals, murders, and other atrocities against the families of both sides were routinely inflicted at the hands of opposing sides…
 
For the most part, the citizens of Winston and many in other ‘hill country’ counties of north Alabama, didn’t feel like they had a dog in that hunt. They tried extremely hard to remain neutral, even to the point of taking a symbolic vote in Winston County to ‘secede from the state of Alabama’ (using the same arguments the state had used) when the state itself had voted to secede from the Union; ergo, the unofficial label ‘Free state of Winston’.
 
Many were eventually drawn into the conflict, however, due to the actions of both sides that ultimately forced participation upon them. Many other military aged men ‘hid out’ in the nearby forest around Natural Bridge to avoid being forced into service or otherwise punished by one faction or the other. Those who were captured by one side or the other were typically given the choice to either join their captors or die on the spot.
 
Natural Bridge, AL…
 

 
‘Indian Face’ rock formation at Natural Bridge
 

 
Story of Natural Bridge…
 

 
Natural Bridge a bit more recently…
 

 
Almost none of the people of that area were fire-breathing pro-slavery wealthy folk. That area did not lend itself well to large plantation undertakings, so the vast majority of locals were simply subsistence farmers, farm laborers, or other small merchants and the like. There were a few slave owners, and a few slaves, but mostly that simply was not an issue of any magnitude for nearly all locals. Their personal views and choices about slavery were one thing, but the ‘natural order of things’ and the reality of the way things were in the world into which they had been born was another.
 
It is also worth noting that the majority of the locals at that time could neither read nor write, and they lived in cabins or small houses often lacking even glass windows, wooden floors, or other ‘refinements’. They had been born into poverty and lived a very difficult, uncertain life with endless arduous work, disease, pain, and misery. Anything they couldn’t make or grow themselves was more often than not simply done without. Essential items like tools were acquired by barter or forage. Social interactions were largely limited to immediate and extended family members, neighbors, and/or fellow church members.
 
Even small children witnessed pain, suffering, and death on a large scale among their siblings and small circle of contacts. No child had ever not at times gone to bed hungry, quite cold or unbearably hot, sick, or otherwise miserable at least some of the time. Typically, one or more siblings had died of disease or mishap during their childhood, they’d had one or both parents lost to some cause, or wondered what might be down the road just a few miles… things they likely would never know.
 
As difficult as that existence was, however, it was not seen the same way we might think of it today. The earlier generations of kin who had migrated to this area had been escaping even more depressing and/or desperate circumstances, so this was viewed as an improvement with one glaring additional aspect: Hope! Beyond just survival, the prospect of opportunity for improvement of their situation motivated them to struggle on…
 
A common misconception is that white people in the south all had lived like Scarlet O’Hara of ‘Gone With The Wind’. There were folks like that, to be sure, but they were a small minority. The distribution of wealth versus poverty was not unlike that in the north… or even Europe at the time, actually, the entire world. The few very wealthy folks lived like royalty, while many of the rest lived no better than many of the enslaved people: Except, of course, for the dignity-robbing humiliation of being 'someone else's property', plus the inability to move at will, or being powerless to even keep ones' own family in-tact.
 
In the north, the rich owned factories and other places of large employment, where they employed masses of working poor. In the south they owned plantations and slaves. Three-fourths of white families in the south owned no slaves, and of those who did, approximately half of them owned two or less. Less than five percent of slave owners actually ‘owned’ large numbers of fifty or more other human beings. White population throughout the south in 1860 was more than twice as large as that for slaves.
 
For those in the ‘hill counties’, it was the issue of secession itself and the breaking apart of the Union which most did not favor at all that had resonated loudly. The large plantation owners and major slave holders of south Alabama (and all southern states) were the driving-force behind the secession juggernaut… Those same folks who also happened to be the principal opinion makers, as well as the political movers and shakers of the state.
 
Initially, most Winston County locals avoided taking any oaths of loyalty either to Alabama or the Confederacy, and they tried to go about their lives as before. As the war droned on and casualties mounted, though, and as the wealth of the state continued to be drained away, the state, to fill quotas and meet the desperate demands of the Confederacy, also implemented military conscription, and passed laws requiring a loyalty oath in order to vote.
 
Live-stock and farm produce were being increasingly confiscated as the needs of the armies of both sides continued to rise. This, of course, increased the hardships and desperation of those already suffering greatly from the war. Those who opposed secession and the war itself over time reluctantly began to lean towards involvement, but on the Union side! Most, however, simply sought to remain out of the 'unnecessary' struggle altogether…
 
Most folks today think the two sides in that conflict were both simply universally monolithic, unanimous, and eager constituencies: Pro-Slavery in the south, anti-slavery in the north. The move towards secession in the south was so driven at its core, because of the very real fear it was only a matter of time before slavery would be outlawed nationwide with devastating economic, social, and political consequences for the south.
 
The mythology of racism, originally fabricated to help ‘justify’ black slavery in the first place produced near panic at the prospects of all those black folks suddenly being turned loose. Other ‘justifications’ for rebellion, like states’ rights for example, were amplified or created to influence those who might lack strong enough views on slavery itself or, like most folks throughout the south, who actually owned no slaves themselves.
 
A ‘smorgasbord’ of ‘just reasons’ was ginned-up and offered to appeal to any who might listen as to why they should support ‘The Cause’. Without the overarching issue of slavery and all the associated implications, however, none of those other 'justifications’, even all combined, would have been sufficient to have led to secession and/or that tragic war.
 
The US national borders had continued to expand throughout the early 19th century, and immigration had continued unabated to explode driven in part by the hardships of over population and/or feelings of desperation 'at home' combined with the availability of vast amounts of newly acquired lands through wars, treaties, purchases, etc. Yes, the ‘huddled masses’ were indeed flocking to our shores in unprecedented numbers! They also decidedly tended to not look favorably upon the institution of slavery...
 
It was realized by southern interests that eventual statehood of the new lands (otherwise unsuitable for cheap labor-intensive large plantation agriculture and therefore beyond its influence) would at some point produce a majority in the US Senate sufficient to amend the constitution and overturn the ‘understanding’ that had existed in our nation from its founding.  At the time, and right up until very recently actual parity, the south had enough senators to prevent abolition, but it was obvious to many that that would not remain the case indefinitely or even for very long.
 
The reality of this to those of the ‘ruling elite’ in the south made it obvious the South's status as a wealthy/powerful agricultural behemoth, and indeed the tremendous individual wealth of those elites themselves were both at stake. National political power for the south was inexorably lessening as political control gradually shifted towards the north which continued to grow and industrialize, while the west also continued to grow in population and influence. Each region, with its own unique needs, vied with each other for the 'attention' and favor of the Federal government.
 
In time, it seemed apparent, the south would be at a serious comparative disadvantage to the other regions that would manifest itself in terms of slavery abolition and the accompanying staggering economic loss, unfavorable national tax and tariff policies, along with the ability to impact the nation’s overall course. Their only hope of preserving the status quo and current power, it was thought, was to form a separate nation free of the ‘abolitionists’, radicals, usurpers, and troublemakers.
 
To support the argument for leaving the Union, the hotly and long-debated issue of states' rights re-intensified.  Even at the founding of our nation, there were deeply divided beliefs on that subject, and those heated up again with the passing of the US Constitution. At the time just prior to the actual start of the War of 1812, many 'leaders' in the New England states were openly seriously discussing leaving the Union rather than going to war with England again (the primary trading partner of those states at the time). No successful secessions ever occurred, but that wasn't because the topic was unthinkable to a great many!
 
In the north initially, the more important issue to most folks was simply preserving the Union. It was widely recognized that in a scarry world full of powerful colonial nations eager to expand their empires, a fractured US offered far less of an obstacle to their ambitions…  Indeed, it was during the 'distraction' of the American Civil War that France had actually installed Emperor Maximillian as head of the Mexican government. The emperor and his monarchy had replaced the ‘legitimate authority’ in that young republic!
 
In terms of international power size matters, so to most it seemed only logical that remaining united, therefore stronger, was seen as critical for survival, while secession posed a likely mortal threat to our young, fragile ‘political experiment’! In the end, however, most issues are decided based upon how they are perceived to impact 'me' personally. If I stand to lose big, I tend to oppose anything that threatens me personally. I will also look for 'moral justification' for my choices... all the while pointing to the ‘immorality’ of my adversaries.
 
There was a growing number of staunch and quite vocal abolitionists, to be sure, but at the outset their voices had not yet reached the fevered pitch they would in time… Most ordinary folks in the north were unwilling to go to war to end slavery at that time even though most did oppose it. As the war drug on, though, and as new ‘reasons’ were needed to stoke the fires of ‘patriotism’ and continue to bring the rebels to heel… The 'noble cause' of freedom for all soon dominated the discussions...
 
‘The sin of slavery’ provided the backdrop for all the upheavals of the time, but in the beginning preservation of the Union was the primary issue in the north. Meanwhile in the south, apprehension about the future of slavery with the very real prospect of economic catastrophe, the likelihood of undesirable social changes (this fear a byproduct of the contrived racism), the destiny of individual states, and the ‘rights’ of individuals themselves, plus the fact all that undesirable change would be forced upon them against their own wishes by 'outsiders' were on the minds of southern opinion makers.
 
At a local level, thoughts about local sovereignty, family loyalties, duty to friends and neighbors, or when and for what reason(s) might we be willing to take up arms all factored into the mix of reasons, too. Should viewing slavery as morally wrong be enough to obligate us to fight-to-the-death with our own family members and our neighbors who didn’t own slaves themselves and were actually fighting for other reasons entirely? Is the idea we’re better off together than we would be apart sufficient to induce me to kill folks I’ve known and cared about all my life? Is it my duty to take the life of loved ones (or surrender my own) simply because they have different moral and/or political views?
 
These and other pressing questions faced all of those in our nation, but especially those in the ‘borders’ region of our country. Missouri, Kentucky, West Virginia (still part of Virginia at the beginning), Maryland, and Delaware had all been ‘slave states’, but they did not actually secede from the Union. Even in other states, like Alabama for example, which did secede, among many slave owners themselves but especially among non-slave owners, the internal debates raged with fateful implications… and often fatal consequences… Brother against brother, father against son…
 
This ‘Gordian Knot’ was not unlike the issues facing the recent ancestors (grandparents and great grandparents) of the people of that time. The American Revolution had also produced painfully similar divisions among the ‘colonists’ of the time with ‘Loyalists’ on one side and ‘Patriots’ on the other. Families were likewise split on the issues of the day, especially leaving the English Commonwealth and forming a new nation versus remaining loyal subjects seeking redress of grievances from within. The horrors of war, particularly guerrilla warfare, were visited upon most all the civilian families and neighbors of those who served on one side or the other… in both wars!
 
Civil war is a terrible time for all, and for those caught in the middle of the calamity, it is particularly terrible. Today we look for simple explanations and easily identifiable causes to point us towards answers to questions about earlier times, but none of that ‘low-hanging fruit’ existed then. It was typically tragic, extremely difficult, always gut-wrenching, and usually painful for all concerned no matter what their choices were. All of that also had to be confronted then without benefit of the ‘hindsight’ we enjoy today… Things looked drastically different in 1865 than they had just four years before!
 
To more completely understand how all of this was viewed at the time, one needs to recall the circumstances of the lives being led by most at that time... Additionally, there was a general lack of useful, accurate information, but also the way the limited information was being 'spun' by those advocating for one course or the other. All existing hardships were compounded by the absence of military aged men either serving or hiding out, and the impact that had on food production for those who remained to fend for themselves while being preyed upon by foragers..
 
The constant 'foraging' by the militaries of both sides to support their own efforts, the deprivation constantly being experienced and compounded over time by the women, children, and old people who were still struggling at home to produce enough to simply survive... without the aid of their most able-bodied men. And there were the actions of the military men who 'foraged'; and, their 'bad acts' escalated as times became even harder...
 
It's nearly impossible for people who are comfortable, well-fed, and who have never truly known hardship to understand how atrocities like those visited upon or by civilians and opposing soldiers themselves could occur, but it is a reality of all wars throughout human history. As genuine hardship and suffering go up, the 'bar of morality' comes down...
 
It is by visiting such places and delving into the very real ‘human’ aspects of such a time, that we can begin to understand how such a tragedy could have come upon us… and how it might happen again… At the very center of all that calamity was human innocence, ignorance, deprivation, misery, greed, self-interest, ambition, the strong bonds and interdependencies between family members and friends, the need for status and influence, as well as the desire for wealth and position on both sides of the ‘border’ that led us down that sad path…Indeed, just as it often is in any conflict…
 
People are heavily influenced by what is going on right around them, especially what and how those they regard as important to them are choosing their own courses. Additionally, the same tendencies are seen today driving our so-called elites to push or pull us one way or the other for their own aims… And the same way people like us are choosing which ones to believe and follow. Then as now, there always seems to be far more virtue-signaling than actual virtue itself… The more things change, the more they seem to remain the same…
 
To simply say, “The American Civil War was about slavery,” is to grossly oversimplify and profoundly understate the complex dynamics of multiple issues (far more than just those few touched upon above) swirling around in the hearts and minds of the average people of the time. To say the war was not about slavery is to do the same…
 
Granny had her own view of the war…
 

 
DDT

Logged

Don't just dream it... LIVE IT!

See ya down the road...
hubcapsc
Member
*****
Posts: 16773


upstate

South Carolina


« Reply #1 on: December 07, 2022, 11:23:34 AM »


The large plantation owners and major slave holders of south Alabama (and all southern states) were the driving-force behind the secession juggernaut…

This is debatable - open to discussion or argument.

I'd rather keep my mouth shut or even hit my thumb with a hammer than argue with DDT...

-Mike
Logged

The emperor has no clothes
Member
*****
Posts: 29945


« Reply #2 on: December 07, 2022, 11:40:31 AM »

Damn ! That might be one of the most interesting, insightful, and thoughtful story of a slice of our history that I’ve ever read. Isn’t it interesting that the nuances of incidents are the most insightful ? Thank you for “The rest of the story”. I appreciate how much you wished not to stir up controversy. Anybody that knows you, knows that. As hubcap said, “I’d rather hit my thumb with a hammer, than argue with DDT”.

Again, thank you ! That was (and is) a fascinating story that I’d have likely never learned about otherwise. We owe a lot to those poor souls from “back in the day”. I can’t imagine what it might have been like.
Logged
Willow
Administrator
Member
*****
Posts: 16600


Excessive comfort breeds weakness. PttP

Olathe, KS


WWW
« Reply #3 on: December 07, 2022, 12:40:27 PM »

...
Most folks today think the two sides in that conflict were both simply universally monolithic, ...
...

Interestingly, as I searched my family tree I found ancestors who served militaries on both sides of the War between the States.  Most interesting was a group of brothers from Arkansas who joined the United States union army in Arkansas.  That unit hardly ever left Arkansas although one of the brothers was lost.  That loss was to disease rather than battle wounds.  I'm told that was not so much unusual as there were likely more fatalities from disease rather than physical combat wounds.
Logged
RNFWP
Member
*****
Posts: 423


"What color blue is that?"

Greenville, SC


« Reply #4 on: December 07, 2022, 03:07:37 PM »

Thanks, I enjoyed the long version.  cooldude

BTW I'm still trying to find a copy of the other book that was recommended while we were there.
Logged

"My dog is one of my favorite people"
Bigwolf
Member
*****
Posts: 1501


Cookeville, TN


« Reply #5 on: December 07, 2022, 04:09:49 PM »

Bruce,
That is a wonderfully written and very informative report!  I am so glad that you decided to go ahead and post it! 

I believe that the real cause of that ugly war was inevitable and unavoidable. I am certain that time in US history is difficult to fully understand today since “realities” of life are so very different now.  However, it seems easier to me with what you have here written and when I consider the following:  1) That in 1835 five hundred million pounds of cotton made up nearly 55 percent of the entire United States export market, a trend that continued nearly every year until the outbreak of the Civil War. Indeed, the two billion pounds of cotton produced in 1860 alone amounted to more than 60 percent of the United States’ total exports for that year.  2) Farm tractors were not invented until more than 25 years after the beginning of the Civil War. There were steam engines that could be drug around by horses, but the self propelled steam engine would not become available til 1862!  3) In those times, commercial scale farming was done only by massive intensive manual labor.

Of course, as pointed out, the real push in human terms came from those who owned commercial operations and would therefore be severely impacted (actually lose everything they had) if slavery became outlawed.  As with all wars, the rich start them but the poor must then fight the war and usually pay the greatest price for it.

There is, what I believe to be a very telling part of history that has been lying obscured in darkness.  It pains me to see that the sign along the road to Bryant’s Grove has now been moved to a small area of the Long Hunter park nearby.  I cannot find the full story on the internet now however, there is this news from when they moved the marker.  https://rutherfordtnhistory.org/bryant-grove-historical-marker-rededicated-june-18-2011/.  If I remember it correctly, Mr. Bryant at one time owned a huge amount of land around and through what is now Nashville, Tennessee.  He farmed this land with the efforts of slaves that he owned!  The fact that a black former slave would himself own slaves just does not fit with today’s message.  To me, it just reinforces the fact that slavery was the way large scale farming was done in that era. 

A lot of history is ugly, mean, and nasty in my opinion. …….. but then I have never lived in those times or under those conditions.  I expect that when history looks back on the years between 2000 and 2100 people of 2200 will be quite shocked at the violence and cruelty of this century. 


I hope that what I have posted here is a compliment to the original post and not a distraction from it.

Bigwolf
« Last Edit: December 07, 2022, 04:46:15 PM by Bigwolf » Logged
msb
Member
*****
Posts: 2284


Agassiz, BC Canada


« Reply #6 on: December 07, 2022, 08:58:40 PM »

Hey Bruce...first of all, isn't it nice at our age to be able to call someone else a "local older guy"?  Smiley

Obviously it comes natural to you, and your choice to live the life of a motorcycle gypsy and travel around the continent extensively has enabled you to use your aptitude for engaging total strangers in meaningful conversation to full advantage. It's amazing the wealth of interesting or useful information and perspectives there is to learn when we do that!
Many on here may not know this but back in the day, US history & geography as well as our own Canadian and even some European history & geography was part of our schooling here in Canada, so many folks my age have been exposed to important historical events in the US. Personally, I've always been interested in the historical facts of major wars/conflicts around the globe through the decades and centuries. The Civil War history is of course "close to home" in terms of geographical location and also with it being so prominently featured in books, movies, and TV shows that made there way up here all these decades, so it's history has always been of particular interest to me. Great post...thanks for passing on the local knowledge and different perspectives from that era in that particular region. Fascinating stuff...even for this Canuck here in BC! cooldude
Logged

Mike

'99 Red  & Black IS
DDT (12)
Member
*****
Posts: 4112


Sometimes ya just gotta go...

Winter Springs, FL - Occasionally...


« Reply #7 on: December 10, 2022, 07:16:20 AM »

Mike,

Any distillation of whatever amounts of information and serious inquiry will still be open to legitimate disagreement! Because we all are human, we each start from different vantage points, have different motives, access to different and typically limited quantities of information, and are subject to our own subjective judgements... It would be quite impossible to have universal agreement on the 'one truth'!  Most certainly anything I've shared would be subject to challenge... and indeed, could very well be incorrect! It is, however, my own sincere opinion...

I too would not want to ever challenge your vast knowledge based upon your own serious study of that period - a body of information for which I hold great respect and admiration. That we might differ on some of the aspects of the real history of that time is not only understandable; it would be completely unavoidable, again, in my own opinion!

Thank you for pointing that glaring error out, Mike. I should have attempted to properly qualify my assertations at the outset...

DDT



Rob,

Thank you very much, my friend, for that most flattering critique! That story, and countless others like it, have fascinated me for many years... Early on I studied the usual 'history': Battles, statistics, strategies, names and backgrounds of the generals and leaders... I soon wearied of the tragic carnage and utter futility of the whole thing, however my interest in how that could happen to us never left me.

These days to the extent I do any study, it has mostly to do with the ordinary people of the time, how they were manipulated and influenced, and how that so clearly appears to still be the case with contemporary politics and life generally... I am also fascinated with genuinely good leadership and how that impacts people and events... likewise, the results of poor leadership as well. My perspectives are as flawed and 'not quite accurate' as anybody else's, but they are what I honestly think I see...

One more thought on your response... I deeply appreciate observations from folks with no axe to grind or position to advance... Those who are genuinely interested in accuracy and deeper understanding of whatever matter is on the table, so usable lessons can be learned. Those who recognize the value of understanding what is truly going on and not simply attempting to score debating points... Folks like I've always found you to be. Thanks again for your comments!

DDT



Carl,

I'd venture to speculate that most of us who had ancestors around at the time, also had some on each side of the schism! Given the similarity of my own genealogy to that of the ordinary folks of Winston County, it would not surprise me at all to find one or two 'closet Yankees' lurking somewhere in the fine print of our own history! None to date have ever surfaced, but... Such was the nature of the lead-up to the terrible struggle!

I've also come across many references to the role and magnitude of 'non-combat' deaths upon the military population of both sides! Guesstimates vary, of course, but the rates you mentioned are also those offered by some of the scholars whom I've found to be quite accurate in their overall assessments...  I appreciate your comments and insights!

DDT



Ross,

Thanks for the reply. And thanks for sharing the adventure with me! I probably wouldn't have ventured there again had I been wandering around alone, so my views would still be based upon the very limited information I had prior to that visit.

As it turns out, I was sort of correct in my former view before, but there was so much more to absorb, that my current understanding of things is rather far from what it had been just a short time ago! One of the more important days I've spent on the road in quite some time! I'd forgotten about that other book!

DDT



Jerry,

Yes, most today don't fully appreciate the total value of southern agriculture before the big war! I've read estimates of upwards of two-thirds of total US exports just prior to the war were cotton traded with industrialized countries abroad. Huge wealth was also associated with that robust trade, and the prospects of loosing all of that and becoming ordinary farmers themselves was unthinkable to most of the southern 'elites' of the time.

You are also correct that some 'people of color' also owned slaves at the time. Indeed, even some Cherokee Indians had owned black slaves prior to their 'relocation'. Those were a very tiny minority of the total, however, but as you imply: Facts that don't fit the modern narrative or 'desired view' of history 'as it should have been' conveniently omit those pesky little details.

"Each generation stands on the shoulders of those that preceded it..." The lessons of history are there for us to understand and derive benefit... However, the maximum benefit can only be gained from the most accurate understanding... Those who wish to 'improve' or 'sanitize' history by changing it to suit today's notions do us all a disservice...

I've been looking forward to your reaction to my thoughts. Your own efforts to remain unbiased and objective have led this writer to respect, value, and seek your perspectives on many subjects... Thanks for replying and for giving your additional observations and critique. I do appreciate ya, dude!

DDT



Mike (msb),

Yes, it is indeed nice! I'm finding those opportunities to be increasingly infrequent, however... Thanks for your reply!!! When I noticed you'd posted a response, I was most curious to see what a Canadian might have to say about the matter...

Yes, we do have distinctively different but curiously intertwined histories! I've enjoyed reading of your history, and I've also gained some perspectives on the course of human events I would not have seen otherwise. Still, we also share much in common... The great thing about all that is that we're right next door and can share all we have and therefore broaden each other's perspectives at the same time!!!  Thanks a bunch, neighbor... or should I say 'neighbour'...?

DDT
Logged

Don't just dream it... LIVE IT!

See ya down the road...
RP#62
Member
*****
Posts: 4033


Gilbert, AZ


WWW
« Reply #8 on: December 10, 2022, 07:35:20 AM »

Thanks Bruce, good read.  My mother used to tell me that when she was a young girl spending time at her grandma's house, grandma would tell her about when the yankees came through and plucked her chickens to make a mattress.  She was still pissed off about it.

-RP
Logged

 
Valker
Member
*****
Posts: 2995


Wahoo!!!!

Texas Panhandle


« Reply #9 on: December 10, 2022, 09:12:08 AM »

I'd like to remind people who think they KNOW stuff from extensive research through history documentation: it's almost always the winners in a particular war who get to write the books about it.  coolsmiley
Logged

I ride a motorcycle because nothing transports me as quickly from where I am to who I am.
hubcapsc
Member
*****
Posts: 16773


upstate

South Carolina


« Reply #10 on: December 10, 2022, 10:06:05 AM »

I'd like to remind people who think they KNOW stuff from extensive research through history
documentation: it's almost always the winners in a particular war who get to write the books
about it.  coolsmiley

I'm glad they only started exclusively writing those kinds of books about us recently...

Surrender means that the history of this heroic struggle will be written by the enemy; that
our youth will be trained by Northern school teachers; will learn from Northern school books
their version of the War; will be impressed by all the influences of history and education to
regard our gallant dead as traitors, and our maimed veterans as fit subjects for derision.

Patrick Cleburne

One of the Clemson University Confederate Memorial Day observations is where
I first heard the above quote... If we did that now there'd probably be a riot!

« Last Edit: December 10, 2022, 10:09:52 AM by hubcapsc » Logged

signart
Member
*****
Posts: 2095


Crossville, Tennessee


« Reply #11 on: December 10, 2022, 04:32:38 PM »

Cumberland County, TN, where I reside and my ancestors hail from was almost sharply divided as the monument in Veterans Park downtown Crossville stands as witness. The monument dedicated to those who served has an equal number of C.S.A. and Union veterans. It is a large beautiful native Crab Orchard stone (with at least three of my ancestors' names inscribed), and completely paid for by members of the Sons of Confederate Veterans. I guess the ancestors of the pro union side were not proud of their service as they did not feel the need to honor their service by contributing or decorating on Veterans day, as we place a flag for each name, both for and against the union.
We had to petition the local government for permission to erect the monument to be placed in the Park next to the other monuments honoring Veterans of various wars. Their stipulation was that an equal number of Union soldiers names were inscribed to match the number of Confederates. We had to submit our roll call first, they found an equal number of names.

It is documented that down in the southern part of the county, a wealthy widow slave owner gave up two of her black slaves to support the Union effort early in the war, and she fully expected to get them back after the war was over.
Logged
t-man403
Member
*****
Posts: 1663


Valk-a-maniac

Calgary, Alberta, Canada.


« Reply #12 on: December 11, 2022, 10:37:51 AM »

One day……I’m going to read this!  Shocked
Logged

"Men are like steel. When they lose their temper, they lose their worth". Chuck Norris
Thunderbolt
Member
*****
Posts: 3720


Worthington Springs FL.


« Reply #13 on: December 12, 2022, 03:37:31 AM »

Wow, I think that is the most information that I have ever seen you post at one sitting Bruce.  Took a lot of writing and reading and recalculating how to say things I surmise.  But I must say I enjoyed reading all of it.  Most likely your folks did as mine did on their migration from Europe to the U.S.  Ours started out in the Northern states and eventually made it to Florida.
Logged

DDT (12)
Member
*****
Posts: 4112


Sometimes ya just gotta go...

Winter Springs, FL - Occasionally...


« Reply #14 on: December 13, 2022, 05:56:25 AM »

RP,

Yes, there are a couple of those stories passed down in our family, too! Most 'foragers' in our stories didn't stop with merely plucking the chickens, though... Among the many, many difficulties with moving large armies back then was logistics... Food and other supplies hauled by mule-pulled wagons over bad roads moving slower than the units themselves!

Soldiers on both sides often had to find food for themselves, so they had to go out and scrounge whatever they could find (in other times it would be called theft) to keep going. Both armies, particularly those away from the major battlefields of northern Virginia, 'lived off the land' much of the time... Thanks for sharing the story, and thanks for the nice compliment!

DDT



Eric,

I once watched an interview on C-Span, where an Irish song writer was the guest. The interviewer asked why there often seems to be a disconnect between actual recorded history and the songs, ballads, and other literature about certain periods... The response was that the victors wrote the history, the vanquished wrote the poetry... All that and today, we even have folks changing facts to suit modern narratives purely for political reasons... Let's face it, we sure are a flawed species!

DDT



Mike,

Among the most difficult aspects of any writing on this topic is being forced to limit discussion to only one or two subjects! Those who use 'trigger words' or single-issue items to determine the worth of those involved miss all the other qualities or vices of the folks being considered.

"The Confederacy was associated with pro-slavery, therefore all involved on that side were worthless and undeserving of any credit for anything." Likewise, any on the other side opposed slavery and were therefore virtuous and noble for that one reason. It's a real shame, in my view, because by 'simplifying' or 'sanitizing' history plus more than a little virtue signaling, we 'alter' history thereby denying ourselves many of the lessons to be learned...

I won't attempt to go there in this thread, but I completely agree with you and the author of those words that there was much 'patriotism', choices based solely upon honor and duty, much sacrifice and tremendous valor displayed by folks on both sides. To deny any of that is to seriously weaken the tremendous 'tool of history'!

DDT



Signart,

Lots of paradoxes and ironies with that war and its commemoration... Still, there is value in the remberance and celebration of truth and the attempts to 'reach out' afterward... My personal favorite war statue sits atop Lookout Mountain and was placed by the state of New York. It is an obelisk with two soldiers on top with their arms around each other's shoulder... They, by virtue of their attire, were obviously one from each side... no weapons are visible, only the two former combatants embracing in friendship... Thanks New York!

DDT



Terry (tman)

I'd be interested in your thoughts and opinions...

DDT



Terry (T-bolt),

Yeah, it took considerable time... I wanted to be as accurate as I could, but I also didn't want to appear to omit anything bearing on the subject. It was truly good for this humble student, as you might imagine, to think long and deeply on the matter and try to capture his own thoughts on that time and place...

I'm reasonably sure our ancestors followed similar paths of migration! We both have lots of 'Scots-Irish' in our make-up, so... My folks were poor, uneducated 'farm laborers' then later 'farmers', so their history is not known very far back...

My folks either entered as 'indentured servants' through Charleston, SC, during earlier colonial times or came later through Philadelphia and traveled down the 'Wagon Trail' of the Shenandoah Valley settling in the Yadkin River area of North/South Carolina like so many others. Since I can trace some of my roots to North Carolina, I suspect many of my people came through the latter route..., but others...?

The story of Europeans migrating throughout the North American continent is a truly amazing, complex, and multi-faceted one and not much like the tales and speculations told by those pseudo-scholars who only see things narrowly, simply, black and white, and little more than human greed and avarice playing out on a broad scale... It has been a life-long curiosity for this student of 'us'...

DDT
« Last Edit: December 13, 2022, 09:38:59 AM by DDT » Logged

Don't just dream it... LIVE IT!

See ya down the road...
Pages: [1]   Go Up
Print
Jump to: