Best Exhaust for Valkyrie

[Disco]

I don't understand...

I didn't want that to go unnoticed or under-appreciated.  

If you want loud pipes, buy loud pipes, don't irreparably molest your stock pipes.  If you want irreparably molested stock pipes, be patient and buy someone else's eventual rejects.  They will be cheaper than what you can sell your unmolested pipes for.  As concepts go, that one is pretty simple.

BTW, I never had the 2bros 6X6 or stock Standard/Tourer pipes on the dyno, but I lost 2.6 hp when I went to unmolested IS pipes from my 18" glasspack mod.  Dynos can give you answers as well as raise questions.

If you jet the bike properly to match then you'll actually improve performance a little bit.

And if you don't jet it properly, you may not extract all the potential  Serious question:  Which method are you going to use to know whether the bike is jetted properly?   

[The Anvil]

I don't understand why everyone keeps talking about a loss of performance with the Cobras. If you jet the bike properly to match then you'll actually improve performance a little bit.

Put it on a dyno and you'll see why people talk about loss of performance. 
I've seen guys quite shaken up by the results ... especially after seeing the dyno results of "another Valk" with the "glass pack" mod.

It has been on a dyno, it GAINED horsepower with the Cobra 6X6 and re-jetting. Not a lot but it was about two and a half horses up top but stayed pretty much flat everywhere else.

[MP]

EVERY dyno test result I have seen shows Cobras losing power.  If properly rejetted, they only lose a little.  Please post a dyno comparision showing an improvement.

[The Anvil]

EVERY dyno test result I have seen shows Cobras losing power.  If properly rejetted, they only lose a little.  Please post a dyno comparision showing an improvement.

I don't have it, the PO does. I'll ask him if he can find it.

[sugerbear]

come on now........................2.6 horsepower..................gimme a break!!!!

maybe if you started with 5-10 that would make a difference ???

[Disco]

I don't have it, the PO does. I'll ask him if he can find it.

Man, if you can get it and post it, that would be great.  If he can't find it, maybe he can tell you where it was done and you can get another printout. 

come on now........................2.6 horsepower..................gimme a break!!!!  maybe if you started with 5-10 that would make a difference

You talkin' to me???      I'm not certain you're talking to me, but the 2.6 number is a pretty good hint.   

The reason I posted that nugget is that many people will tell you the best hp & torque numbers are produced through stock exhaust.  My dyno runs indicate otherwise for my bike.  They also suggest there is jet work to be done, or undone, but that is another subject and I haven't gotten all the way to the bottom of it yet.  But I will.

[The Anvil]

come on now........................2.6 horsepower..................gimme a break!!!!

maybe if you started with 5-10 that would make a difference ???

I'm not saying they set the world on fire, I'm just pointing out that they don't hurt performance. When I looked at the dyno chart what surprised me is that for a 6X6 system with no crossovers they didn't lose power in the low to mid-range. There was effectively no gain until you got some revs going. That it made a little extra power on top was gravy in my opinion.

But honestly, after riding the Valk with the stock exhaust the other day I'd happily take a slight loss in power for the sound.

[The Anvil]

I don't have it, the PO does. I'll ask him if he can find it.

Man, if you can get it and post it, that would be great.  If he can't find it, maybe he can tell you where it was done and you can get another printout. 

It was done at a shop in Alabama. Actually, I have a receipt from them from when they installed the Avon Venoms. But this is almost five years ago that all this was done.

Getting a hold of Matt (the PO) can be tough. Between being a cop and his Guard obligations it's a crap shoot but I'll see if I can get a hold of it.

[quexpress]

I don't understand why everyone keeps talking about a loss of performance with the Cobras. If you jet the bike properly to match then you'll actually improve performance a little bit.

Put it on a dyno and you'll see why people talk about loss of performance. 
I've seen guys quite shaken up by the results ... especially after seeing the dyno results of "another Valk" with the "glass pack" mod.

It has been on a dyno, it GAINED horsepower with the Cobra 6X6 and re-jetting. Not a lot but it was about two and a half horses up top but stayed pretty much flat everywhere else.

I would LOVE to see the results (before and after) because, at Inzane in 2003 (and also a few times at Americade), I have witmessed many Valks on the dyno (one after the other).
EVERY Valk with Cabra 6 X 6 was at least 10 HP weaker than the stock OEM Valks ... and when compared to the ones with glasspacks (Mark T, DIY ones, etc), it was even worst. 
Having said that, I know how these Cobras function .... 'cause I've been there ... had them on my Valk.... but took them off and never looked back.
A Valk with Cobras but without needles, etc. will lose HP. Add the needle jets and it will gain a bit on what it has lost but ... it will never be up to par with an OEM set up.
Sorry ... have seen too many.
I do not wish to start arguing. The above is a witnessed fact.
I like the sound of the Cobra 6 X 6 but ... hate the power loss.
This is the end of my Canadian 2 cents. 

[The Anvil]

I don't understand why everyone keeps talking about a loss of performance with the Cobras. If you jet the bike properly to match then you'll actually improve performance a little bit.

Put it on a dyno and you'll see why people talk about loss of performance. 
I've seen guys quite shaken up by the results ... especially after seeing the dyno results of "another Valk" with the "glass pack" mod.

It has been on a dyno, it GAINED horsepower with the Cobra 6X6 and re-jetting. Not a lot but it was about two and a half horses up top but stayed pretty much flat everywhere else.

I would LOVE to see the results (before and after) because, at Inzane in 2003 (and also a few times at Americade), I have witmessed many Valks on the dyno (one after the other).
EVERY Valk with Cabra 6 X 6 was at least 10 HP weaker than the stock OEM Valks ... and when compared to the ones with glasspacks (Mark T, DIY ones, etc), it was even worst. 
Having said that, I know how these Cobras function .... 'cause I've been there ... had them on my Valk.... but took them off and never looked back.
A Valk with Cobras but without needles, etc. will lose HP. Add the needle jets and it will gain a bit on what it has lost but ... it will never be up to par with an OEM set up.
Sorry ... have seen too many.
I do not wish to start arguing. The above is a witnessed fact.
I like the sound of the Cobra 6 X 6 but ... hate the power loss.
This is the end of my Canadian 2 cents. 

I don't doubt that if you just slapped a set of 6X6's on there that you'd lose power, probably a lot actually. They come too lean as it is and you're only going to make it worse with a freer flowing exhaust. From what I understand re-jetting alone can net you a little power in some instances.

But I ride with another Valk that's got modded stock pipes (cut piggies) and I run right with him. There's now way I'm 10 horses down.  And there's no way I'm down ANYTHING to the bone stock bike I rode the other day.

[Sigrún]

I purchased my Valk with the 6X6 Cobras already installed.
As far as I am concerned, they sound and look great. Not looking for another system.

2nd that 

Never really had the urge to go look elsewhere. Sure I may miss a couple of ponies ( never dyno'd her ) but still seems to be plenty enough for me. And perhaps an occasional Harley

Just Loooove that "Lycoming" sound at certain RPM's.

[f6john]

    There is one thing that I am sure of, but have absolutely no proof other than the seat of my pants and the factory gauges. That one thing is , not all Valkyries were created even. And I'm not talking about the 97's or different exhaust systems. I've ridden a lot of stock Valkyries and some are just sweeter and on the money. The last one I rode like that was a 98 Tourer that a friend bought in Tennessee. It was a low mile Maroon and creme that had not been well taken care of. It still had the original Dunflop's and they were pretty wasted. Guy claimed bike had never been wet, and it looked it, probably never been washed. But I rode it part way back to Hopkinsville and it would have round circles around my bike.

[Disco]

They come too lean as it is

Again, what method of testing are you using to state this as fact? 

From what I understand re-jetting alone can net you a little power in some instances.

True, but it can also cost you power.  What changes would you make to the oem setup to net a little power in some instances?

There is one thing that I am sure of, but have absolutely no proof other than the seat of my pants and the factory gauges. That one thing is , not all Valkyries were created even.

+1

[The Anvil]

They come too lean as it is

True, but it can also cost you power.  What changes would you make to the oem setup to net a little power in some instances?

Well the rich/lean is somewhat a matter of opinion. But I'll use an example from aviation. A lot of pilots I know like to run a little bit lean of peak (with carbureted reciprocating engine aircraft the pilot can adjust the mixture from the cockpit on the fly) to conserve fuel. But those guys also tend to be the guys who burn valves and run hot CHT's (Cylinder Head Temperature) and EGT's (Exhaust Gas Temperature). We see the best results when the aircraft if flown in a slightly rich condition. That little bit of extra fuel helps keep CHT's and EGT down and that means longevity.

As for how I know they're lean from the factory, well that's what I've been told. Call me an R-tard for believing it, but it makes sense. Most bikes are jetted (or programmed for EFI) too lean to meet certain requirements and for fuel economy. Slightly lean won't hurt a liquid cooled engine so basically, I have no reason to believe it's not too lean from the factory as there's plenty of anecdotal evidence and it's consistent with what I've seen in the past. Even my 93 ZX7 was lean from the factory.

As far as the all Valkyries not being created equal, well that's another thing that's consistent with what I've seen before. Mass produced engines can vary noticeably in output for a variety of reasons. I happen to know for a fact that break-in makes a big difference too. Another aircraft example (I'm sorry if I'm sounding like a broken record here but it's what I have the most experience with) proper break in is achieved through getting the engine to operating temperature and then doing a series of full power runs the whole time running it rich to achieve maximum Break Mean Effective Pressure (BMEP) to properly seat the rings but keeping the cylinder walls cool enough to prevent oil glazing. If you baby the engine you will polish the cylinder walls instead of seating the rings and too much heat will cause the aforementioned oil glazing which will also prevent seating. In my opinion too many people baby their new engines.

[MarkT]

I agree with this - bikes - and other vehicles too - set up lean from the factory, I've seen that as the norm rather than the exception.  Pretty sure that's thx to the EPA.  Typically set at around 17-1 mixture at sea level.  When optimum for normally aspirated carburated engines is more like 14.7-1.  I hold that if you do nothing else to the Valk, and run at low altitudes, the engine would be happier - and make more power, if the mixture was fattened up.  Never mind the effect of reducing backpressure with freer-flowing exhausts - which in most cases, makes it even leaner.  Especially with exhausts w/o scavenging.  Interestingly, at our high altitude, the thin air makes it richer around here.  I'm getting pretty much optimum mixture with no carb tweaks.

[SCain]

I have ran 3 sets of pipes on my bike, 99 Interstate and I live at 5000 ft above sea level. I am currently running the Two Bros 6 into 2 with a crossover in the header section, I think these pipes are awesome, sound great, great performance. The stock pipes and Cobra 6x6's are hanging on the wall.
Just my .02

[Bonzo]

My '97 standard came with Two Brothers 6 into 6 racing headers. My Harley friends would look at me funny and claim it was the loudest thing they ever heard. I leave for work at 0415 and would have to idle out of the development. My wive claimed she could hear me get on the highway 2 miles away. I would vibrate after the 55 mile ride to work. Much to loud for me.
I bought a set of stock pipes on E bay, sold my Two Brothers also, could not belive the bidding war that went on and what I sold them for!

[Ricky-D]

I don't understand why everyone keeps talking about a loss of performance with the Cobras. If you jet the bike properly to match then you'll actually improve performance a little bit.

I have to disagree simply because there has been no substantiation with solid information such as mentioned in the above post.

And to boot, the loss of good miles per gallon figures certainly ought to have some consideration in the equation!

***

[98valk]

http://www.valkyrieforum.com/forum/tech_archive.cgi?read=969520

This was posted by J. Orr, 3/27/1998, on the GWRRA BBS, valkyrie section.
The following mods were done by Marc the owner of Factory Pro of a valkyrie that had cobra 6x6 pipes.
K&N filter (w/o prefilter)
Air box mod (remove plastic welded baffle)
38 pilot jet
3.5 turns idle mixture screw
front needles set on #3
mid and rear needles set on #2
115 main jets all carbs
this picked up 5 hp over the base run with the cobras which are down about 10 hp from stock.
this HP is still down from the stock pipes

I talked to Marc when I was jetting my bike w/glass pac mod about the cobras and the testing on the above bike he did, he said, "u can only get back to stock oem HP, anymore and major jetting and air inlet changes need to be done but mpg will go down." more or less his words.

drag pipes aka as straight pipes which the cobras are, came about from the HD dirt track racing program. they will make more power but only in a very narrow HP range such as used on a circle track. anything else and they are terrible for HP compared to other exhaust designs.

[The Anvil]

http://www.valkyrieforum.com/forum/tech_archive.cgi?read=969520

This was posted by J. Orr, 3/27/1998, on the GWRRA BBS, valkyrie section.
The following mods were done by Marc the owner of Factory Pro of a valkyrie that had cobra 6x6 pipes.
K&N filter (w/o prefilter)
Air box mod (remove plastic welded baffle)
38 pilot jet
3.5 turns idle mixture screw
front needles set on #3
mid and rear needles set on #2
115 main jets all carbs
this picked up 5 hp over the base run with the cobras which are down about 10 hp from stock.
this HP is still down from the stock pipes

I talked to Marc when I was jetting my bike w/glass pac mod about the cobras and the testing on the above bike he did, he said, "u can only get back to stock oem HP, anymore and major jetting and air inlet changes need to be done but mpg will go down." more or less his words.

drag pipes aka as straight pipes which the cobras are, came about from the HD dirt track racing program. they will make more power but only in a very narrow HP range such as used on a circle track. anything else and they are terrible for HP compared to other exhaust designs.

Did the pipes have the baffles in?

[98valk]

http://www.valkyrieforum.com/forum/tech_archive.cgi?read=969520

This was posted by J. Orr, 3/27/1998, on the GWRRA BBS, valkyrie section.
The following mods were done by Marc the owner of Factory Pro of a valkyrie that had cobra 6x6 pipes.
K&N filter (w/o prefilter)
Air box mod (remove plastic welded baffle)
38 pilot jet
3.5 turns idle mixture screw
front needles set on #3
mid and rear needles set on #2
115 main jets all carbs
this picked up 5 hp over the base run with the cobras which are down about 10 hp from stock.
this HP is still down from the stock pipes

I talked to Marc when I was jetting my bike w/glass pac mod about the cobras and the testing on the above bike he did, he said, "u can only get back to stock oem HP, anymore and major jetting and air inlet changes need to be done but mpg will go down." more or less his words.

drag pipes aka as straight pipes which the cobras are, came about from the HD dirt track racing program. they will make more power but only in a very narrow HP range such as used on a circle track. anything else and they are terrible for HP compared to other exhaust designs.

Did the pipes have the baffles in?

yes, as they came from Cobra, I was told, by Marc.

[The Anvil]

http://www.valkyrieforum.com/forum/tech_archive.cgi?read=969520

This was posted by J. Orr, 3/27/1998, on the GWRRA BBS, valkyrie section.
The following mods were done by Marc the owner of Factory Pro of a valkyrie that had cobra 6x6 pipes.
K&N filter (w/o prefilter)
Air box mod (remove plastic welded baffle)
38 pilot jet
3.5 turns idle mixture screw
front needles set on #3
mid and rear needles set on #2
115 main jets all carbs
this picked up 5 hp over the base run with the cobras which are down about 10 hp from stock.
this HP is still down from the stock pipes

I talked to Marc when I was jetting my bike w/glass pac mod about the cobras and the testing on the above bike he did, he said, "u can only get back to stock oem HP, anymore and major jetting and air inlet changes need to be done but mpg will go down." more or less his words.

drag pipes aka as straight pipes which the cobras are, came about from the HD dirt track racing program. they will make more power but only in a very narrow HP range such as used on a circle track. anything else and they are terrible for HP compared to other exhaust designs.

Did the pipes have the baffles in?

yes, as they came from Cobra, I was told, by Marc.

Then they're really not straight pipes.

[crazydago]

When I got my 98 standard it had TBR's. Sold them . Bought Cobra's ,cut baffels to less than half. Installed K&n and jetting and a Dyna Tec controller. Guarentee no loss of pull on top end and a sound that will put any HD to shame.

[quexpress]

When I got my 98 standard it had TBR's. Sold them . Bought Cobra's ,cut baffels to less than half. Installed K&n and jetting and a Dyna Tec controller. Guarentee no loss of pull on top end and a sound that will put any HD to shame.

Guarentee no loss of pull on top end
That statement surprises me because ... past dyno tests have shown that TRB 6 into 6 pipes produced MORE HPs than Cobra 6 X 6 pipes.

Compared to what? Did you have it tested on a dyno?

[LilAbner]

I have a 1997 stanard, i cut the pigtail off and drilled the back three baffles, leaving the front
baffles. by leaving the front baffles you still have back pressure for your engine.. I have a good sound
not to loud.

[designer]

Whether its a Valkyrie or VTX. Cobras lose power.  I seem to think that's where the smart money stands at this point.  I've seen dyno runs on the VTX board that showed this.  Any lose of backpress from stock will cause power lose.  Honda pipes scavage air really well. 

[Hoser]

Butt dynos suck, if you wanna know, spend the 30 bucks.  Hoser
Stock 99, stock pipes

[John Schmidt]

I got mine from Mike Townsend, a/k/a Viper Creations, within a few months of getting the bike. They've been on there for over eight years now and still look and sound great. Stage 1 gives me a nice low rumbling sound at low RPM, but will really bark when you are running at speed on the interstate. He uses the OEM pipes and makes the changes to the muffler, then will add the truck stack of your choice. Result....you sorta get the best of both worlds; quiet enough around town but still growls, sounds off when you give it a twist. In fact, for long runs I'll use earplugs along with the MarkT silencers. As for performance, I've had it on a dyno once....at InZane in Paducah, KY.  The heat and humidity was unbearable, as anyone that attended will recall, and it still put out something in the mid-90's for HP, close to that in torque. I no longer have the sheet, I was curious is all, it has more power than I'll ever use so it doesn't really matter to me.

I just know that at 75-80 mph and running w/o the silencers and no earplugs, after about 30-45 minutes my hearing is as bad as a 26 yr. old for the next few hours. They will "talk" to you.
http://www.viper-creations.com/

[quexpress]

Butt dynos suck, if you wanna know, spend the 30 bucks.

         
I could not have said it better! 

[Jess from VA]

What is the best exhaust for the Valkyrie???

Those the rider prefers. 

Performance, sound, looks... (so long as nothing is seriously compromised)..... whatever makes you happy, that's the best.


I like stock (with or without a piggie trim and no more).......... so shoot me.   

I'd like a nice glasspac Porche-sounding pair to put on from time to time, but mostly I don't want any competition with my speakers.  And for the cost, I could buy another nice rifle.   
 

[98valk]

Two of my posts have been removed, lets see if this one is also. 

[The Anvil]

Butt dynos suck

I've gotta disagree. If you get to know a bike well enough then you can develop an innate sense of the power it's making and the effect that modifications have. Not everyone possesses that ability though.

CA, what would you have said that had to be removed?

[Ricky-D]

Two of my posts have been removed, lets see if this one is also. 

Yeah, I know what you mean CA. It really smacks of some kind of malevolent paternalism. And chicken besides with no explanation or reason given much less admitting who does it.  I guess if you're not with the "in crowd" there are extra measures of retribution that await you for your digressions.

BUT, the main reason I am posting, and to copy a often seen t-shirt, is that "there is no replacement for displacement" and this is especially true with the Valkyrie motor when it comes to exhaust note.

Failure to realize that the Valkyrie motor (like six 250cc motors sewn together) will never get that deep throated sound like a v-twin which is akin to two 800cc or more motors sitting in the frame.

I personally like the sound my Valkyrie makes and many friends remark how it sounds like a mad-ass Porsche running down the road. It sure is sweet sounding to me.

And the best part is that it can be relatively quiet when just putting around.

Jus sayin'

***

[Ferris Leets]

Butt dynos suck

I've gotta disagree. If you get to know a bike well enough then you can develop an innate sense of the power it's making and the effect that modifications have. Not everyone possesses that ability though.

That is a pretty odd statement.  If you want to "guess" at the HP okay.  But if you are actually trying to convince someone who knows what they are  talking about, good luck, you are going to get laughed at a lot. "It feels (sounds) more powerful therefore it  is more powerful". They would ask to see the calibration certificate for your butt.
     My experience with dynos is that there will be some variation anyway.  Mine went from about 96 hp on the first run to 101 on the third.  This is max HP.  How many of us ever run these beasts at the max?  I was more interested in what it was making and the fuel/air ratio at 3K than I was at 6.5K.  By the way this a stock setup '99 IS with a K&N  with pre filter.

[quexpress]

Two of my posts have been removed, lets see if this one is also. 

I have managed to read it and must admit ... that I agreed with a good portion what you had said!!! 
The same thing is going on LOL!

[The Anvil]

Butt dynos suck

I've gotta disagree. If you get to know a bike well enough then you can develop an innate sense of the power it's making and the effect that modifications have. Not everyone possesses that ability though.

That is a pretty odd statement.  If you want to "guess" at the HP okay.  But if you are actually trying to convince someone who knows what they are  talking about, good luck, you are going to get laughed at a lot. "It feels (sounds) more powerful therefore it  is more powerful". They would ask to see the calibration certificate for your butt.
     My experience with dynos is that there will be some variation anyway.  Mine went from about 96 hp on the first run to 101 on the third.  This is max HP.  How many of us ever run these beasts at the max?  I was more interested in what it was making and the fuel/air ratio at 3K than I was at 6.5K.  By the way this a stock setup '99 IS with a K&N  with pre filter.

Well like I said, you can't put it on a graph. I'm not talking fine points here, I'm talking about developing that intimate connection between yourself and the machine that allows you to feel power differences from modifications or environmental changes (like on a hot day vs. a cool one).

But lemme put it to you like this; my buddy Rich has a 99 Valk with modified stock pipes (cut piglets, outer baffles drilled) and he can't outrun me. I'm also about 80lbs heavier than he is. So my "butt dyno" tells me that I'm not down 10 horsepower to his bike.

[Ferris Leets]

Back in the old days.  I had a Suzuki X6 Hustler.  250cc 6 speed 2 stroke.  A buddy had a 500cc Kaw. triple.  We used to do stop light to stop light a lot.  He never came close to beating me.  I mean not even close.  He couldn't figure out how my bike could out accellerate his bike.  It was not my BIKE that was out running him.
   So I would put it to you this way.  Is your bike staying even with his or are you staying even with him?  Do you shift at exactly the same times and RPMs?  Does he hold the clutch a split second longer than you?  Does he run over the top of the curve and start losing power?  Are you trying harder than he is?  I believe those things are more important than a couple of horse power at 6500 rpms.
   I saw on my dyno runs that after 6500 the horse power dropped by about 6 or so before it hit the limiter.

[The Anvil]

Back in the old days.  I had a Suzuki X6 Hustler.  250cc 6 speed 2 stroke.  A buddy had a 500cc Kaw. triple.  We used to do stop light to stop light a lot.  He never came close to beating me.  I mean not even close.  He couldn't figure out how my bike could out accellerate his bike.  It was not my BIKE that was out running him.
   So I would put it to you this way.  Is your bike staying even with his or are you staying even with him?  Do you shift at exactly the same times and RPMs?  Does he hold the clutch a split second longer than you?  Does he run over the top of the curve and start losing power?  Are you trying harder than he is?  I believe those things are more important than a couple of horse power at 6500 rpms.
   I saw on my dyno runs that after 6500 the horse power dropped by about 6 or so before it hit the limiter.

Well Rich knows how to ride. He's pulled some impressive drag strip times on his Valk (and he's owned it since new). I don't think it's that we're far apart in ability. We've both had time at the strip in fact. I attribute his not being able to take advantage of his lighter weight to his shield and Air Wings adding resistance.

[Ferris Leets]

So you are not really riding equal bikes.  His has the extra resistance which could very well eat up the extra 2 or 3 hP he is putting out , since he probably already lost some by messing with his stock exhaust.  See where this butt dyno gets you?  Plus  dyno horse power does not neccessarily translate into acceleration which is what your butt dyno is recording.  If I ran a real world run on my bike (160# with boots) without bags , trunk, pods, or shield,  then another one with a big fat fellow and all of the geegaws attached.  I can pretty well predict that even with the same hp the times are going to be different.

[Hoser]

Butt dynos still suck, put up or shut up.  Hoser