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Author Topic: Just another hair-brained idea.  (Read 1786 times)
Rams
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Covington, TN


« on: September 24, 2023, 09:07:39 AM »

Based on my current situation, I've found it almost impossible or at least painful to fill my Kubota tractor with fuel.   I keep three six-gallon diesel fuel containers on hand and fill the tractor up as needed but, those fuel containers are awkward and heavy. 

(Didn't have this problem before InZane where someone kicked me in my left knee.  That person shall remain nameless since there were no witnesses.)

Regardless, I've been toying with a couple of ideas to make this fueling process much easier.   I've looked into some of the different pumps that are available, they aren't price friendly.   But I have an idea on how to do this and not spend several hundred dollars.

My idea is to use a few of the tools I already have to accomplish the refueling.   That being, drilling a hole into the cap of a 42-gallon plastic drum I already have, installing a air valve stem that I can couple to a small air pump and then drilling another hole into the other cap and inserting a plastic pipe long enough to reach the bottom of the drum with a V cut into the bottom of that pipe to allow fuel to enter the pipe.   Obviously, the pipe would then protrude out the top of the drum with a hose attached (long enough to reach the tractor fuel tank.   By coupling the low-pressure air pump to the cap with the valve stem and turning the pump on, I can then pressurize the drum enough to allow the fuel to flow through the plastic pipe, into the hose and up to the tractor tank.

Knowing that 42-gallon fuel drum will be very heavy (about 300 lbs.), I'll have to use my tractor's FEL to unload a full drum from the back of my truck and place it where I want it but, I see this as very doable.   This will also save me several trips back and forth to the AG Diesel station for six-gallon fill ups everytime I need to refill.

Anyone see any problems I have not considered.  What have I not thought of?   

Rams Undecided
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hubcapsc
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upstate

South Carolina


« Reply #1 on: September 24, 2023, 09:14:40 AM »




-Mike
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Rams
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So many colors to choose from yet so few stand out

Covington, TN


« Reply #2 on: September 24, 2023, 09:17:49 AM »




-Mike

I have one (or more) of those.  They would work just fine if, I can keep the fuel container equal to or above the tractor fuel tank.   I've never been able to syphon uphill. 

Rams
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Learning the majority of life's lessons the hard way.

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ridingron
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Orlando


« Reply #3 on: September 24, 2023, 09:23:17 AM »

Don't see any problems.

How about a 12VDC fuel pump with a switch and alligator clamps. The one for my Valk belly tank could pull fuel up that high and but only pump a couple gallons a minute (other flow rates available).
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hubcapsc
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upstate

South Carolina


« Reply #4 on: September 24, 2023, 09:26:26 AM »

I was just imagining dumping 5 gallons into my 8-N... my "safety nozzle" is
hard plastic and a notch on its end helps me hold it on target while the
5 gallons drizzle through the "safety valve"...

Anyhow... enough complaining about that :-) ... you need  a table or raised
surface next to where you fuel up... I guess pumping diesel doesn't have
the same grounding requirements that gas does?

-Mike




-Mike

I have one (or more) of those.  They would work just fine if, I can keep the fuel container equal to or above the tractor fuel tank.   I've never been able to syphon uphill. 

Rams
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carolinarider09
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Newberry, SC


« Reply #5 on: September 24, 2023, 10:45:20 AM »

I was thinking about the need for some cover gas for long term storage.   I know that when we lived in Michigan we had a diesel fuel tank in the yard from the previous owner of the house we purchased.   It was just a tank and my research basically said it was OK to store diesel that way, but...... 

I did a search and found the following websites.  It's a discussion board so....  Oh, it's an old thread, 2003 it looks like.


https://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=76953
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Rams
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So many colors to choose from yet so few stand out

Covington, TN


« Reply #6 on: September 24, 2023, 10:48:35 AM »

Don't see any problems.

How about a 12VDC fuel pump with a switch and alligator clamps. The one for my Valk belly tank could pull fuel up that high and but only pump a couple gallons a minute (other flow rates available).

Have a couple of those 12V DC pumps around here, the one that still works is pretty slow.   But, they do work.


Anyhow... enough complaining about that :-) ... you need  a table or raised
surface next to where you fuel up... I guess pumping diesel doesn't have
the same grounding requirements that gas does?

-Mike


Honestly, I am not sure about the grounding differences, although diesel isn't nearly as explosive as gasoline but, my thoughts are that by using air pressure to force fuel out of the barrel and up into the tractor fuel tank, the air pump can be a considerable distance away from the actual fuel.   But, it's certainly something to consider.

Edited:  After thinking about it, I don't believe there's a huge difference between pouring diesel from a container into a fuel tank versus pumping it using air pressure.   I could be mistaken but, that's my thought.  Although the "flash points" of gas and diesel are significantly different, that is always a consideration.   But, ignition from a static source would be no different whether pouring fuel or pumping it with air pressure IMHO.   

Rams
« Last Edit: September 24, 2023, 11:03:48 AM by Rams » Logged

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Learning the majority of life's lessons the hard way.

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3W-lonerider
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Shippensburg Pa


« Reply #7 on: September 24, 2023, 11:37:44 AM »

i know those fuel pumps built for carbs are slow. but they make inline fuel pumps for fuel injection that pumps alot of fuel. kinda like one of these
https://www.amazon.com/EVIL-ENERGY-External-300LPH-Universal/dp/B07Y9WW183/ref=sr_1_27?crid=3MQNJHBPT10BP&keywords=direct+injection+high+pressure+fuel+pump&qid=1695580604&refinements=p_72%3A1248861011&rnid=1248859011&s=automotive&sprefix=fuel+pump+for+fuel+injection%2Caps%2C1362&sr=1-27&ufe=app_do%3Aamzn1.fos.006c50ae-5d4c-4777-9bc0-4513d670b6bc
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Jess from VA
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No VA


« Reply #8 on: September 24, 2023, 12:16:38 PM »

While it's old school simple, you can just pour gas from 6gal containers into 2-2.5 gal containers, which are then not too heavy or awkward to climb up and fill your tractor (or anything else). 

I keep 4 five gallon cans of gas (no corn), plus an assortment of 1.5-2-2.5 gallon cans full of fuel.  I generally work out of the smaller cans, but when they are empty, I refill them (as needed) from the 5's.

A half empty 5 is also easy to handle.

Even though the Promaster Van gas hole is pretty low, to fill it from a full 5, I need a small step stool.  Those new fangled no-vent cans flow very slowly and my arms and shoulders cannot take the weight of holding a full 5 can up for that long.

Only thing you need is a couple of good funnels and a few smaller cans.  And a bit of patience.
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sandy
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Mesa, AZ.


« Reply #9 on: September 24, 2023, 12:23:04 PM »

At my work, we used air pressure to offload chemicals (4000 gal) from a tanker truck into our tanks. You can't stop the flow without proper valves and then you'd have to have a way of venting the tank. Plan on this in your piping design.
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old2soon
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Willow Springs mo


« Reply #10 on: September 24, 2023, 01:11:35 PM »

      Maybe a frame holder thingy for a gravity feed? Just spitballin Ron. RIDE SAFE.
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Rams
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So many colors to choose from yet so few stand out

Covington, TN


« Reply #11 on: September 24, 2023, 01:20:52 PM »

And a bit of patience.

There in lies the problem.   My supply of patience has been burnt out about two years ago.  Wink

     Maybe a frame holder thingy for a gravity feed? Just spitballin Ron. RIDE SAFE.

Yeah, thought about that also.  If I were to build a frame to place the 42 gallon barrel on (on it's side), then I'd only need a valve and hose to allow it to gravity feed.   Fill the tractor tank and turn off the supply line.  

Would have to use  the Kubota FEL to get the full barrel up on that rack/frame and hire a welder to build it.   I like that option but, materials and welders aren't cheap and I am.  Wink

Rams
« Last Edit: September 24, 2023, 01:24:59 PM by Rams » Logged

VRCC# 29981
Learning the majority of life's lessons the hard way.

Every trip is an adventure, enjoy it while it lasts.
Rams
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Posts: 16262


So many colors to choose from yet so few stand out

Covington, TN


« Reply #12 on: September 24, 2023, 01:31:18 PM »

At my work, we used air pressure to offload chemicals (4000 gal) from a tanker truck into our tanks. You can't stop the flow without proper valves and then you'd have to have a way of venting the tank. Plan on this in your piping design.

Noted, good advice. 

Rams
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Learning the majority of life's lessons the hard way.

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Moonshot_1
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Me and my Valk at Freedom Rock


« Reply #13 on: September 24, 2023, 05:04:45 PM »

If this was me....

2 - 50 gal barrels and one of these
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BLH8MSVW/ref=sspa_dk_detail_4?ie=UTF8&psc=1&pd_rd_i=&pd_rd_i=B0BLH8MSVWp13NParams&s=automotive&sp_csd=d2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9kZXRhaWxfdGhlbWF0aWM

One empty barrel on pick up. Go to station fill it up, transfer fuel to on ground barrel. Transfer pump.
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Mike Luken 
 

Cherokee, Ia.
Former Iowa Patriot Guard Ride Captain
Rams
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So many colors to choose from yet so few stand out

Covington, TN


« Reply #14 on: September 24, 2023, 05:40:35 PM »

If this was me....

2 - 50 gal barrels and one of these
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BLH8MSVW/ref=sspa_dk_detail_4?ie=UTF8&psc=1&pd_rd_i=&pd_rd_i=B0BLH8MSVWp13NParams&s=automotive&sp_csd=d2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9kZXRhaWxfdGhlbWF0aWM

One empty barrel on pick up. Go to station fill it up, transfer fuel to on ground barrel. Transfer pump.

Another good idea.   I'll figure something out, thanks for all the feedback.

Rams
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Learning the majority of life's lessons the hard way.

Every trip is an adventure, enjoy it while it lasts.
vanagon40
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Greenwood, IN


« Reply #15 on: September 24, 2023, 06:25:22 PM »

I have been pushing fuel oil with air pressure for quite some time. I have a fuel oil furnace in my garage and the line runs up over the garage door. I use air pressure on the fuel oil tank to bleed the line to the furnace.

In the photos below, I am pushing the fuel from the old tank (attached to the three point hitch) to the replacement tank (unfortunaely the replacement tank also had a leak).





On the final set-up, I have a quick connect for the air supply and a shutoff valve in the garage for the fuel line to the furnace. I use an ordinary air compresser for the air supply.

I have since added a low pressure guage for the fuel tank. I learned the hard way that too much pressure on the fuel tank will cause it to distort (you can see the distortion caused by over-pressure on the sides/end of the old tank). I also added a valve to the air input so I can shut off the air supply without losing pressure.

I firmly believe your concept is doable with a minimum of effort and expense. Set up an air input valve and fuel output valve and you will be in business.

And now the thread is Valkyrie related as you can see my Valkyrie in the background of the first photo.

EDIT: To the extent it is not obvious, the fuel line on the old tank extends to the bottom of the tank.

« Last Edit: September 24, 2023, 06:35:02 PM by vanagon40 » Logged
FryeVRCCDS0067
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Brazil, IN


« Reply #16 on: September 24, 2023, 07:26:49 PM »

I've used the same principle to transfer boiler chemicals from drum to drum several times in past years and it worked quickly and well. But, it takes very little air pressure to do this. Spend a few bucks on a good, adjustable air pressure regulator with a gauge. Once you know what pressure works (probably well under 10lbs) it will be easily repeatable the next time around. I've also used a shop vac to create negative pressure in the drum I wanted to move the liquid into with good, perhaps better results. But not sure this would be helpful in your situation.
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Rams
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So many colors to choose from yet so few stand out

Covington, TN


« Reply #17 on: September 25, 2023, 04:59:44 AM »

I've used the same principle to transfer boiler chemicals from drum to drum several times in past years and it worked quickly and well. But, it takes very little air pressure to do this. Spend a few bucks on a good, adjustable air pressure regulator with a gauge. Once you know what pressure works (probably well under 10lbs) it will be easily repeatable the next time around. I've also used a shop vac to create negative pressure in the drum I wanted to move the liquid into with good, perhaps better results. But not sure this would be helpful in your situation.
Creating a pressure/vacuum in the receiving tank.  
Hmm...................  That could work transferring from one 42 gallon barrel to another but, I don't see a way to transfer the fuel using  that method into the tractor fuel cell.  But, it's an interesting idea.   
I like it.   cooldude

Rams
« Last Edit: September 25, 2023, 05:02:35 AM by Rams » Logged

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Learning the majority of life's lessons the hard way.

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hubcapsc
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upstate

South Carolina


« Reply #18 on: September 25, 2023, 06:16:54 AM »


I don't know how big your tractor is or what you use it for. I can
bush hog three fields and get a bunch of other stuff over at the
barn with five gallons in my 8-N. Putting five gallons in with a $3 kerosene
pump would take a couple of minutes - not quick enough for a
NASCAR pit stop, but ...

-Mike

I've used the same principle to transfer boiler chemicals from drum to drum several times in past years and it worked quickly and well. But, it takes very little air pressure to do this. Spend a few bucks on a good, adjustable air pressure regulator with a gauge. Once you know what pressure works (probably well under 10lbs) it will be easily repeatable the next time around. I've also used a shop vac to create negative pressure in the drum I wanted to move the liquid into with good, perhaps better results. But not sure this would be helpful in your situation.
Creating a pressure/vacuum in the receiving tank.  
Hmm...................  That could work transferring from one 42 gallon barrel to another but, I don't see a way to transfer the fuel using  that method into the tractor fuel cell.  But, it's an interesting idea.   
I like it.   cooldude

Rams
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OnaWingandaPrayer
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« Reply #19 on: September 25, 2023, 10:14:40 PM »

Gravity fill works fine . Fill drum in truck Lift drum with FEL . Gravity feed while the drum is on the FEL ( do you have fork attachment ? ) When tank is full put drum wherever you store it. No need for a welder or tank frame. All you need is a ball valve and length of fuel rated hose (harbor freight, rural king , tractor supply and more should have fuel pump hose in various lengths . IIRC a drum has a 3/4" bung and 2" bung. Hose/ball valve in the 3/4" and fit the 2" with a vent that sticks up taller than the top of drum laying on its side with the 2" bung at the top side.

Hope this makes some sort of sense.
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Jersey mike
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Brick,NJ


« Reply #20 on: September 26, 2023, 03:42:44 AM »

“Old fashioned” hand pumps?

https://www.harborfreight.com/12-volt-diesel-transfer-pump-66784.html

https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/search/hand%20fuel%20pump?

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Rams
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So many colors to choose from yet so few stand out

Covington, TN


« Reply #21 on: September 26, 2023, 04:47:59 AM »

Gravity fill works fine . Fill drum in truck Lift drum with FEL . Gravity feed while the drum is on the FEL ( do you have fork attachment ? ) When tank is full put drum wherever you store it. No need for a welder or tank frame. All you need is a ball valve and length of fuel rated hose (harbor freight, rural king , tractor supply and more should have fuel pump hose in various lengths . IIRC a drum has a 3/4" bung and 2" bung. Hose/ball valve in the 3/4" and fit the 2" with a vent that sticks up taller than the top of drum laying on its side with the 2" bung at the top side.

Hope this makes some sort of sense.

Yeah, we have similar ideas.   As I previously said, I'll come up with something.   The goal is to pull up beside the fuel cell and refill the tractor tank without a lot of other efforts.   Yeah, I'll admit to wanting to take the easiest way to do it.   The FEL only has a bucket so, I'd be lifting it with straps but, we're thinking in similar ways.



Sir, this is the direction my son wants me to go.  It may happen.   Will let folks know how it all works out.   Thanks for the suggestions.  The original goal was to use what I already have but, this thread has made me realize that option also offers some challenges.  We'll see what happens.

Rams
« Last Edit: September 26, 2023, 04:53:40 AM by Rams » Logged

VRCC# 29981
Learning the majority of life's lessons the hard way.

Every trip is an adventure, enjoy it while it lasts.
Jersey mike
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Brick,NJ


« Reply #22 on: September 26, 2023, 12:52:57 PM »

Well if you’re going to try gravity feed system, see if you can rig up a filter in the system, you’ll be pulling from the bottom of the tank.

Good luck and don’t bang your head too hard on it, often the easiest solutions just pop into your head when you’re not thinking about it.
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Rams
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So many colors to choose from yet so few stand out

Covington, TN


« Reply #23 on: September 26, 2023, 01:37:18 PM »

Well if you’re going to try gravity feed system, see if you can rig up a filter in the system, you’ll be pulling from the bottom of the tank.

Good luck and don’t bang your head too hard on it, often the easiest solutions just pop into your head when you’re not thinking about it.

Not sure at this point, I'm away from home and will need to get home to start re-looking at my options.  
But, if I were to go with a pump, it's going to pull from the bottom of the tank also.
You really don't want to know about the things that pop into my head.........  Wink

Rams
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VRCC# 29981
Learning the majority of life's lessons the hard way.

Every trip is an adventure, enjoy it while it lasts.
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