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Author Topic: Knife Sharpening 401 - Finally got it!  (Read 2621 times)
MarkT
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« on: November 24, 2023, 06:53:53 PM »

I'm wondering if you have any interest in this...

I've enjoyed sharp knives most of my life. Always keeping an eye out for better ways to sharpen them. I've known for years that while sharpening, it's important to maintain a single angle on the secondary bevel; don't allow the sharpener media to wobble or change the angle. What that angle is, matters according to what type blade it is, and how will it be used. The grade of steel is very important, as well as the primary bevel of the blade. Using progressively finer sharpening media, as well as the applied pressure are all factors of getting a blade sharp.

Let's start with an image showing knife part terms.  The source is in the image:



So you start with a good blade, preferably high carbon steel with a hardness of around 60HRC. High performance chef's knives run up to 63HRC in hardness. A great knife needs a balance between hardness - which will take and hold a great edge but be brittle - and toughness or flexibility without breaking. Samurai swords have a much harder edge than the back of the blade - they vary the temper across the chord of the blade from spine to edge by covering the spine and flat of the blade with clay in the tempering process. They also hand forge the steel, folding over layer upon layer of steel by hammer-welding them. This is the basis of Damascus steel. True Samurai swords are incredibly crafted, can take a LOT of time and the cost is high.

I recently acquired a premium chef's knife. It's handmade by a Japanese craftsman. Damascus steel, hammer forged with 67 layers of high-carbon steel, 1 7/8" of max chord. Has great reviews online, very sharp and stays sharp longer than may be expected. Requires hand washing, no soaking, dry immediately and apply some oil. They say it's sharpened at 12° while my laser goniometer reports it is.
Here it is.




OK, so now while I have a premium chef's knife I need to get more serious on sharpening. Enter the laser goniometer.  It's a device that lets you evaluate the edge or secondary bevel by reflecting a laser off it onto a degree scale. Works quite well and not really costly. You can determine what sharpening method really works, if a blade needs sharpening, and if it's sharpened correctly for purpose.
Here's the box. Available at Amazon.




I knew some time ago a precision sharpener was available, that lets you set your angle precisely. But they wanted a LOT for it; I recall around $500 or so. I said I'm not paying that.

Well last week I looked into getting a precision sharpener, and I bought one that allows angle setting. Based on the same concept as AccuSharp but with adjustable angles. It came in, and I wasn't impressed.
I'll probably keep it for sharpening cheap knives. But I need a better soln for quality cutlery. Here's what it looks like.




I checked back into the precision sharpener that was so spendy. Hey, they had a change in their business plan.  Maybe their patent expired.  Whatever. Now they are selling it at a reasonable price! Here's the box.




You can set the angle from 15° to 30°, it has 5 different grits of diamond stones, ceramic and a leather strop. (the setting goes down to about 12° but the graduations stop at 15°) It's very effective in creating a precision edge, in less time than you'd expect. And even reprofiling an edge to a new angle, or repair it, in short order. Now for cheap knives, I'd say don't bother. Just use an AccuSharp and in 3 swipes you have a usable knife. But for precision knife work, like butchering a deer, or creating masterpieces in vegetable & meats in the kitchen, a high quality chef's knife (or meat cutter knife) with the edge this Precision Adjust Work Sharp Elite tool produces will help you as a culinary artist. Or if you just like to take appropriate care of your quality knives, this is the ticket. IMHO.

FYI.  Razors have an edge bevel of 8° (each side, not inclusive).  Incredibly sharp but delicate. Don't last at all.  Chef's knives typically 12-15°. Extremely sharp, need honing/steeling often.  If high carbon steel, need extra care but stay sharp longer.  Common kitchen cutlery, around 18°, reasonably sharp for different uses while holding their edge a bit longer.  Pocket knives, 20-21°.  Can be quite sharp and last longer.  Hunting knives, up to 24°.  Least sharp but last the longest of knives.  Then you get into utility edges like axes, hatchets and so on.  Not germane to this discussion.


OK Now some examples.

This is a Santoku Chef's knife, German steel.  "Santoku translates to 'three virtues' or 'three uses,' and these uses are mincing, dicing, and slicing.  Santoku knives are designed primarily for precision work: cutting thin slices. You can use them for chopping cheese, herbs, fish, and various vegetables. They are particularly suited for preparing sashimi and sushi plates.  Although some Santoku knives have a double-sided blade, the original Japanese Santoku knives have a single-sided blade. This allows chefs to have more control when they’re cutting. The Granton edge is another significant feature of Santoku knives." Those are “scallops" on the side of the primary grind that releases ingredients like cucumber or fish from sticking to the knife.   This knife style was invented by Japanese master chefs. I've had this knife since 2015, and have sharpened it on my belt sanders held to a 20° angle (as best I could using a magnetic angle finder) using 2 grits, then buffed on my high speed buffer with 2 grits of sharpening compound (rouge). I didn't know about the one-sided edge of original Santokus - but this one never was.  Not sure this sharpener could support that, with rapid use. (Maybe two of these sharpeners, each set up for one side of the knife would work.)  The scallops are only on the left side - which makes me think this is a left-handed knife - I need the scallops on the right.
(Quote from https://seidoknives.com/blogs/news/santoku-vs-chef-knife)




Now on the laser goniometer, when aligned properly on the edge, you will see two laser reflections near the zero - these are off the flats of the blade - not important.  The laser spots further out on the scale are reflected off the secondary bevels of the edge.  If dull you will see smears of light.  If sharp, they will be bright spots and located at the angle you ground on the bevels.  Here's my Santoku on the goniometer, as it sat on my butcher block - usable for some use in the kitchen, as it would tear it's way through food.  Note there are no spots out on the scale but smears.




OK now sharpening the Santoku on the Precision Adjust Elite.  I designated it at 15°.  BTW all the other knives in the pic are Gerber, Schrade, Knives of Alaska (D2 steel), or Victorinox - all US or Swiss made. As with all sharpening, you grind one side until a burr appears on the opposite side.  They say to feel it - but I found I can SEE it sooner with a bright light - hence the flashlight. On the actual technique of sharpening with this tool:  They cover that well in the instructions so I won't detail it here. I'll add if it's the first sharpening of a given knife and it's really dull and/or you want to establish a different angle profile, then you start with the coarsest grit and use many more strokes than they suggest.  If re-sharpening when the edge bevel is established you start closer to the final grits.  The point is, monitor the appearance of a burr on the opposite side & once it appears, you can stop and turn the blade to the other side.  As they say, count the strokes so you repeat on the other side.  Of course you progress from course to fine grit, generally reducing the stroke count and the pressure through the process.  Done properly this tool provides factory sharpness or better.




Now the Santoku on the goniometer.  I got 13.5°.  It's not aligned perfectly - shift it to the right. These pics took 2 people, 2 hands on the tool & knife & 2 on the camera, alignment & focus.




I sharpened the SwissTool multi-tool, set for 19°.  Because the heel or chord of the blade is too narrow for the clamp to clear the grinding media, I opened the adjacent tool which is the file, clamped on that, which effectively gave me large enough chord for the clamp to clear while grinding a narrow angle.  Like this:




The result on the goniometer:




Here's the Seido chef's knife as it came, in the box.  Unused and unsharpened.  12°.




All of these knives slice through paper like a razor, and of course shave the hair off your arm.  The Precision Adjust Elite sharpener was $126.23 delivered from Amazon.  The goniometer Laser Knife Edge Reader was $34.88 delivered.  Both tools work as well or better than they claim.

Some caveats I found: 
  • The sharpener requires enough "heel" between the spine and edge so the blade clamp will clear the grinding media - especially as the grind angle becomes narrower. This means some knives can't be clamped in it.  Like filet knives, or pocket knives with small heel measurements.

  • You need enough width of the "flat" for the clamp to hold onto a good part of it.  If the "swedge" reduces the width of the flat too much, it will have trouble holding the blade still while you move the grinding media between the tip and the choil along the edge.

  • This sharpener doesn't really sharpen serrated knives - though they say they do. OK I didn't try using their tiny ceramic rod for that, so I could be FOS. They incorporated that into the back of their leather hone tool.  It's only an inch long so I have doubts on it.






« Last Edit: November 28, 2023, 11:05:25 AM by MarkT » Logged


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98valk
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« Reply #1 on: November 24, 2023, 07:10:03 PM »

Great Post Thanks cooldude
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-mike-
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« Reply #2 on: November 24, 2023, 09:18:47 PM »

Great post, wrong place.
Could some admin move the thread to general board, please?
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MarkT
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VRCC #437 "Form follows Function"

Colorado Front Range - elevation 2.005 km


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« Reply #3 on: November 24, 2023, 09:46:46 PM »

It's a technical post, and put up for the benefit of the community.  Tech board posts don't roll off as fast as the general board posts do, on average.  I put all my tech oriented posts on this board.  Even if it's not narrowly specific to Valk tech - it's an adjacent subject that we all would like to know - the REAL way to accurately sharpen blades.  Apparently you aspire to be sys admin.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2023, 03:12:41 AM by MarkT » Logged


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Louis
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« Reply #4 on: November 25, 2023, 04:47:58 AM »

Good info Mark T. I enjoyed it. cooldude
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da prez
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« Reply #5 on: November 25, 2023, 04:56:57 AM »

 Great , Great info Mark. I also cook and have two sets of knifes that I do not allow anyone to mess with. I would say most would not know the difference in a knife.  I have seen a lot of people grab serrated knifes to do kitchen chores.
  Pappy said "a dull knife is way more dangerous than a sharp one"!   
  If you see a steak house claim to have the sharpest knives , what is that saying about the steaks?
  Mark , is the Tobasco a lube for sharpening? 2funny

                                                  da prez

                                     
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Jess from VA
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« Reply #6 on: November 25, 2023, 05:36:29 AM »

Great post, and thanks for sharing Mark.   cooldude

I too have an interest in sharpening (and collecting) good knives. 

I also have a collection of sharpening stones, files, ceramic sticks, sharpening steels, and electric wheel sharpeners (which can do more damage than good).

Nothing as technical as you, but I do OK working by hand, and slowly.

I tend to use cheaper knifes for hard use and they sharpen up easier.  The spendy ones don't get used as much, but are harder to get a good edge.  The best defensive knives never get used at all to keep perfect factory edges. 

What I could never get a handle on was sharpening chainsaw chains... and if you saw dirt, you loose your edge in one second.

So what do you say I send you 25lbs of knives for you to put a good edge on?   Grin
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MarkT
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VRCC #437 "Form follows Function"

Colorado Front Range - elevation 2.005 km


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« Reply #7 on: November 25, 2023, 10:02:55 AM »

Great , Great info Mark. I also cook and have two sets of knifes that I do not allow anyone to mess with. I would say most would not know the difference in a knife.  I have seen a lot of people grab serrated knifes to do kitchen chores.
  Pappy said "a dull knife is way more dangerous than a sharp one"!  
  If you see a steak house claim to have the sharpest knives , what is that saying about the steaks?
  Mark , is the Tobasco a lube for sharpening? 2funny

                                                  da prez                                    


Thx.  Pro chefs are proud of their knives and care for them as the quality tools they are.  If they work at a remote kitchen they arrive carrying a roll-up oilcloth containing their chef's knives - like an old-timey doctor on house calls carrying his medical bag.

I'm not a fan of serrated knives except in a couple uses:  slicing bread, or if I HAVE to slice a ripe tomato with nary a sharp quality knife in sight.  I always have my Victorinox Swisschamp and my Schrade folder in my pocket (and the Swisstool on my belt) all shaving sharp, when out & about.  Place setting steak knives in almost all restaurants I patronize are cheap Chinese (redundant) serrated abominations that don't slice your ribeye but rip & tear through it.  That is, if the chef can't cook the steak properly  (I won't be back) which for me should be rare - if cooked right even their POS dull saws should get through it.  Out comes the Schrade, I'm not using crap cutlery.  Can't blame them though, if they put out good cutlery (and flatware) they would be replacing it constantly.
Always have a bottle of Habanero Tabasco within reach.  Even wear a Tabasco holster on my carry rig. Love my hot sauce. Legacy of the 'nam.

Jess, pick up these tools and you won't need a collection of conventional sharpening tools.  Your search for the best sharpener is over!  Oh, you may want to have an AccuSharp on hand to freshen blades of cheap kitchen knives.

You know, like this - about $11 in any hardware store or Amazon:




I wouldn't mind sharpening a couple blades of friends, but I'm fixin to retire, not take on more work to keep me here.  We are going to be RV'n more soon, while I have a pile of honeydo's to clean up my business mess!
« Last Edit: November 25, 2023, 10:40:33 AM by MarkT » Logged


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da prez
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« Reply #8 on: November 25, 2023, 12:49:01 PM »

  Jess , a chainsaw sharpener is not expensive. It will pay for itself by about the fourth blade. Easy to use and easy to learn. I just wish I would have bought one model better..
 Harbor Freight (or similar) sells a fair one. Just buy a couple extra wheels .

                                         da prez
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Jess from VA
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« Reply #9 on: November 25, 2023, 01:06:01 PM »

Mark, I have that sharpener (around here somewhere).   Smiley


Ross, I have no chainsaw anymore. 

I hire the big jobs out these days.  I only need chainsaws for way up, and I no longer go way up (or even halfway up).  A good man knows his limitations.   Cool
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Jess from VA
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« Reply #10 on: November 25, 2023, 05:25:31 PM »

In the spirit of the thread, I took my well used kitchen chef's knife (used everyday) and worked on the edge.

It's generally sharp enough for regular work, but never really sharp, and it's hard steel and difficult to get sharp(er).

I worked on it a while carefully and got a better edge, then leather stropped it.

I then cut my finger washing it.  crazy2 (not bad, but a nice clean slice)

I should have seen this coming.  Grin



 

 
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MarkT
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VRCC #437 "Form follows Function"

Colorado Front Range - elevation 2.005 km


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« Reply #11 on: November 25, 2023, 06:36:41 PM »

Here's my high-speed sharpening I've been doing recently.  Before the precision method above.  This does work and it's fast.  But not precise.

First set up a magnetic angle jig to the angle I want.  Here it's set to 18° off of vertical.  This jig locks in place.



Position the angle jig next to two 1" belt sanders, with course then fine belts.  These would be better with the platen installed to hold the angle instead of letting the belts flex.  But I also use these for working on pipes & I need the belts to flex for that.  Lay the knife on the angle, then move the blade up to the course belt while holding the same angle. Move it back & forth on the belt until a burr appears on the close side.  Repeat for the 2nd side.  Repeat on the fine belt.  This particular daily use kitchen knife is another Santoku style knife, this one from Costco in a 4-blade set but good German high-carbon steel, the set for $20.  I've been impressed with the quality for the price.  They take a good edge which lasts well, for the price. Tramontina, "High Carbon German Steel" Made in Brazil.



Move the blade over to the high speed buffer.  These 12" wheels spin at 3600rpm = 128.5mph of the edge, unloaded.
Use the right wheel with Tripoli Initial (brown) cutting compound.  Buffer the edge at about the same angle, alternate several times, medium pressure. Buff each side until the burr is gone - you can see it in the bright light.  Go to the left wheel with Max Red Rouge finishing compound.  Polish, typically two passes per side, with lighter pressure.  Again, remove the burr.  The knife will be very sharp, will shave your arm and slice paper easily.




I can create a good edge from a very dull knife in under 5 minutes with this process. But it won't be the precision edge produced in my first post above.

« Last Edit: November 25, 2023, 06:47:55 PM by MarkT » Logged


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Itinifni
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« Reply #12 on: November 26, 2023, 05:29:00 AM »

Great post Mark, thanks.

I too settled on the Work Sharp Elite sharpener a year or so ago after using many others.
I also added two, 1 lb. lead ingots epoxied into the base of the sharpener, I find it easier to use with the extra weight.



I hadn't heard of the goniometer but will look for one now. I've been using the sharpie method for finding the existing edge angle but it's not all that precise and slow.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2023, 08:03:16 AM by Itinifni » Logged

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MarkT
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Posts: 5196


VRCC #437 "Form follows Function"

Colorado Front Range - elevation 2.005 km


WWW
« Reply #13 on: November 26, 2023, 07:52:49 AM »

Thx for the tip on the weight.  Haven't needed that yet but I just got started with this tool.  Seems like a good idea.  Just glued in a nice steel block, not having lead handy.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2023, 11:41:07 AM by MarkT » Logged


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« Reply #14 on: November 26, 2023, 08:31:17 AM »

Seems like a lot of hoopla over a pretty simple job.  Smiley
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MarkT
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Posts: 5196


VRCC #437 "Form follows Function"

Colorado Front Range - elevation 2.005 km


WWW
« Reply #15 on: November 26, 2023, 11:39:11 AM »

We aren't all professional butchers with daily sharpening practice.  Or have your extreme expertise.  So these tools and methods are useful to get a precision edge, for want of that practice.  Meanwhile I'd bet a beer my knives are sharper than yours.
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Vietnam-474 TFW Takhli 9-12/72 Linebckr II;307 SBW U-Tapao 05/73-4
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« Reply #16 on: November 26, 2023, 12:03:50 PM »

We aren't all professional butchers with daily sharpening practice.  Or have your extreme expertise.  So these tools and methods are useful to get a precision edge, for want of that practice.  Meanwhile I'd bet a beer my knives are sharper than yours.
I’m not pissing in your Wheaties. It just seems a lot of effort to go thru, when learning to hold the proper angle isn’t that hard.  coolsmiley
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MarkT
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Posts: 5196


VRCC #437 "Form follows Function"

Colorado Front Range - elevation 2.005 km


WWW
« Reply #17 on: November 26, 2023, 12:23:46 PM »

Apparently easy for you - with likely daily practice.  You're a meat cutter / butcher, right?  Or do I have that wrong.  Yes it is hard to hold a narrow angle, say within a degree, with precision and repeatability for unpracticed users.  These tools/methods fix that.  Your viewpoint is invalid, applied to those without such practice which is likely 99% of the VRCC club.  And amounts to unhelpful criticism.  You haven't contributed anything useful to this discussion - though you may have helpful insight that you aren't sharing. Meanwhile for non-meat cutters, these tips to get really sharp knives, are useful.
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« Reply #18 on: November 26, 2023, 01:12:39 PM »

Ok  cooldude
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MarkT
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Posts: 5196


VRCC #437 "Form follows Function"

Colorado Front Range - elevation 2.005 km


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« Reply #19 on: December 19, 2023, 05:25:27 PM »

While looking at good chef's knives, I checked out what Consumer Reports had to say.  Liked what I saw so I ordered in their second best.  Can't believe their first choice is made in China.  OK for them but I have too much experience with crap Chinese knives to buy one on purpose.  This is a Wüsthof Classic, made in Solingen Germany.  $178.78 delivered from Amazon.  IMHO the Germans make some of the best knives in the world.  This one is of course incredibly sharp - edge is at 15.5° per the goniometer.  The sheath did come from China via Amazon.



« Last Edit: December 24, 2023, 12:30:20 PM by MarkT » Logged


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