Ceiling leak help please

[Jess from VA]

I discovered a small water leak in my dining room ceiling today.  There is no plumbing up there.  Hole smaller than a dime.  I've got a good catch basin set up, and several checks today, and it's now bone dry.  Good thing no more rain projected for a week, but this must be fixed before more rain.  I think this happened last night.  Of course it may have been leaking up there for a while before water finally came though the drywall ceiling.  

Its been raining.  A bit of water (few cups?) came through a small hole in the drywall ceiling and hit the wood china cabinet against the wall beneath the leak.  Something seemed to make the water a bit corrosive as it took the finish off the wood in a couple spots (drywall dust?).  Water on china cabinet and a wood chair, but no wet spot on the floor (carpet) could be found.  Rained last few days and last night, but not today, and none still coming through the hole.
 
The house is a small 3-level split with opposing roof peaks (T shaped) and the water came in the 1-story dining room ceiling, three feet from the outside wall, and close (18") to the 2-story side of the house.  

I have 2 separate attics (2-story and 1-story).  The 1-story is a low squat roof you have to be on hands and knees in the center, and getting out near the eaves would be crawling or laying on your belly.  Plus, I had a pile of free fiberglass blown up in both attics some 30 years ago.  I have not been in that attic for 15-20 years.  

I put a new roof on the house (with 40 year shingles) some 15 years ago (with maybe 6-8 new sheets of plywood), and it all looks good.  I got up there over the leak today, and cannot find any evidence of leak or hole or anything.

I researched on line fixing a roof leak from the roof vrs in the attic, and it said some small leaks can be fixed very well in the attic.  It's obviously a roof leak (not plumbing) but I absolutely do not want to crawl down in that low roof eve covered in free fiberglass trying to find it (and with so little water through the ceiling, I bet it will be a real bitch finding it).

I made three calls (left messages on Sunday) out to local workmen asking for advice (but not a roofer), though I have a couple roofing outfits I've used before (2 10X12 sheds recently, house a long time ago).

Do roofers go into attics trying to do small repairs?  Or must I just get the whole roof above the leak entirely demoed and replaced (maybe with a sheet or two of plywood, paper and shingles)?  

If I need new roof OK, but if this could be done from the attic wouldn't that be easier (and cheaper)?

A mans' home is not his castle, it's his hassle.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.   (sorry for the long post)

[Robert]

Can you see into the attic from any point to see if there is any damage or signs of water intrusion at any point close to where the water came in from the ceiling. A bright light shone into the attic from an access point might be all you need to try to determine the area of the leak. You may not have to crawl up into the attic only see if there are any signs of water. To try to establish a approximate location on the roof itself. Once you narrow down the location then you can go back onto the roof and repair it from there. Black tar or

On the roof if there are no missing or damaged shingles then I would look to any joint or joining on the roofs to see if you can see any spot that looks suspicious. Do you have gutters on the house and are they clean and able to drain?

A clogged gutter can allow the water to drain into the house through the soffit.

[Bret SD]

"I researched on line fixing a roof leak from the roof vrs in the attic, and it said some small leaks can be fixed very well in the attic."

Color me skeptical on this one, Jess. Remember that water can travel a long way until it leaks inside. If the roof has plywood sheeting and 30# felt over the top of it I don't see a path to repairing anything from underneath.

As a stop gap measure you can climb onto the roof and check it yourself (if safe for you..) Anything above the leak could be worth looking closely at, water can move laterally too, moreso when the slope decreases.
I would check the seal around any nearby roof jacks, check where the flashing and pipe meet.. that area must be sealed or water will come in. Also, valleys are notorious for leaking if not done right. A couple cans of Flexseal and a some sleuthing may get you there. If it's not aesthetically important you can seal suspect spots at will. A friend helping and a water hose up there may allow you to test areas a smaller bit at a time. 

Not sure if Flexseal can be applied to a wet surface, Henry's 208 will seal on wet areas but needs to be troweled on. There could be other products out there that I'm not familiar with.
Finding the source is most important. Roofers here will only warranty a repair for one rain event, hopefully you'll have some joy.. or at least find an intelligent roofer to source the leak, from there it could be an owner maintenance thing.

[Jess from VA]

Thank you Robert.

I have so far resisted pulling the access panel to the 1-story attic, sticking a ladder on the stairs and  climbing up to get a look in there (with flashlight, no 110 in there).  I can even climb in there for a better look from the supported center (there is nothing on either side to walk on except the stringers, to avoid putting a foot/leg through the ceiling drywall).  It's full of free blown fiberglass too.

If I don't find a pro quickly to look it over, I will probably try to get a look myself tomorrow.  But I'm very doubtful I can see anything from the supported (boards on stringers) center.

There are gutters, which are covered with the standard leaf protectors (which are a royal bitch to get off and on again).  I get good water flow down and out the downspout in rain, and I get on the roof and blow them out with my backpack Stihl blower (through the covers) regularly.  They may not be perfectly clean of silt, but I don't think that is where the water is coming from.  

Because the leak is 3 plus feet back and up from the gutters, the water is likely getting in at or above the leak (but who knows).

I've wondered if the water may be coming from the ridge vent, running down inside.  As I said, I got on the roof and spent time looking and can see nothing suspicious at all.  

When one of my two 10X12 shed roofs started leaking, I got up there and sprayed the heck out of the leaking areas (they were easy to spot inside the shed) with a few cans of that TV advertised FlexSeal rubberized spray (toxic sh!t), and that stopped them cold.  Only a temp fix.  The original shingles on those sheds were the cheapest crap available, and that shed didn't even have any tar-paper under them.  

[Jess from VA]

Thank you Bret. 

See above, I used some of that Flexseal with good result on my shed roof (later entirely replaced).  But on that, I could see exactly where the leaks were (inside the shed).

I've used the Henry's on foundation leaks and it worked perfectly (years).

Perhaps I just have to bite the bullet and call the roofers and redo the whole area (or whole side of the roof).

I must get this fixed before I get Niagara Falls in the house. 

As it is now, even with minimum skills, I can fix the small hole in my ceiling with drywall tape and joint compound, sandpaper and paint.  If it gets away from me, then it's a pro drywall man (which I have).

[Hook#3287]

This type of leak could be a "the stairs are lined up correctly " thing and will only occur if the right amount of rain and wind direction happen.

Doesn't make it any less stressful.

If I read your description right, the roof that's leaking ends into a wall and the leak is 18" from that junction?

If so, sounds like a flashing issue.

Regardless, you should get into the attic area above the leak and try to follow the water path.  It could be leaking from the peak and traveling down a rafter.

Hopefully you should be able to follow the path.

I'd change out any wet insulation. Both reasons being wet insulation loses its r value when wet and possible mold issue.

[Jess from VA]

Thanks Bill.  (It's Bill, right?  Old memories fade.)

[Robert]

I hesitated to suggest this but the Tropi Cool will seal the leak but, colors and the labor to do it may be worth getting someone else to repair the roof for you.

 if you can find the leak and only do that small area it will work. I have a flat roof that was redone and it started to leak, rather than call the guy back I coated the whole roof with this and it has been great.

In your case I dont know if color would be a problem, either white or grey, or if you could localize the area and coat just that area. You can apply it over shingles without a problem and it adheres great and seals great. Just dont expect to use the brush or roller again and anything you get it on it will never come off. It can be dry enough to get water on it in 15 minutes also. Pours like thick paint and dries like a silicon skin. If possible I would use this rather than tar or anything to seal.


887G Tropi-Cool 100% Silicone Gray Roof Coating 4.75 gal.
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Henry-887G-Tropi-Cool-100-Silicone-Gray-Roof-Coating-4-75-gal-HE887G018/302865617

Have you tried hosing the approximate area on the roof that has the leak and see if you can localize the roof area by seeing if the water leaks into the room? Move the hose and see if the leak stops or does not change. You should be able to get some kind of idea also read your post about roof vents. Make sure that any opening in the roof in the area above the leak is sealed well all corners where the roof meets the flashing.

[Chrisj CMA]

Just like on our bikes. Start with easy stuff. A couple years ago we had the same problem. It was the ridge vent. I just bought roofing screws like they use on metal roofing and a tube of tar caulking and sealed that puppy up. Permanent fix

[h13man]

Had a leak caused by the vent stack rubber boot on the roof got too old. Also needed the flashing resealed around the chimney.

[da prez]

  An inside repair is like putting a bandage In a cut that needs stitches.  If you can access the roof , start there. A leak can travel a long way as you have been told.  Water will track and you have a starting point. Where it shows itself coming in may not be where it actually started from.  A half ass repair will come back and bite you later and the bite will be bigger.  Find it , repair it and be done. Cheaper in the long run.

                                               da prez

[Jess from VA]

Thanks Robert.  My 40yr shingle is forest dark green with black flake.  I really don't want to spray or roll white or grey on it (even on the back side of the house).  

I'm not completely adverse to an over-spray solution, but I'd really rather fix the actual leak(s).  But where!?  I used that expensive Flexseal rubberized spray on my shed roof with good success, but I knew where the leak(s) were.  The stuff is clear.  

I got the access panel off this morning, cleaned up the cobwebs and dust at the opening, and used my best light in there, and cursed if I can see any obvious water damage on plywood sheets or hole.  I really do not want to climb in there (if I can get a pro to do it).  I would have to either balance on the stringers or maybe shove a piece or two of scrap plywood over the stringers so I don't go through the ceiling, which would suck.  And the blown fiberglass completely covers all the stringers (need one of those Tyvek hazmat suits and a respirator.  

When I got reroofed 15 years ago, they put in ridge vents (the original house had none), a very good idea.  But now I see where all the roof blowing/cleaning I do up there has pushed a bunch of dust and pollen and tinyl debris down the center under the vent, on top all the blown fiberglass.  Not a problem, it's all dry.  I guess that's to be expected from a vent

The last thing I want to do is put a hose on the roof and cause more water to go through my ceiling.  If the pros come and put a guy in the attic to call the leak while another used the hose, fine.  

I've (so far) got a guy coming to look it over Wed afternoon, but rain is due Sunday.  I feel like I have a ticking time bomb.  If it can't get fixed before more rain, I may be rolling out a tarp over the area or spraying a dozen cans of Flexseal all over the place.

[Jess from VA]

 An inside repair is like putting a bandage In a cut that needs stitches.  If you can access the roof , start there. A leak can travel a long way as you have been told.  Water will track and you have a starting point. Where it shows itself coming in may not be where it actually started from.  A half ass repair will come back and bite you later and the bite will be bigger.  Find it , repair it and be done. Cheaper in the long run.

                                               da prez

Thanks Ross, I'm in complete agreement. 

I mean, if a single small leak hole could be identified in the attic and completely sealed up from the inside, that would be great, but that may be dreaming.  I dunno.

The roof is easily accessible, on top.   

This may very well be the ridge seal between the 2-story and 1-story sides of the spit level.  The ceiling leak is about 18 inches away (laterally) from that edge, but that's close enough to still be the source.

[DDT (12)]

Jess,

I hate it for ya, bud! I'm afraid this non-handy guy has no advice to offer... The only solution that works for me is to simply not own a roof/ceiling in the first place.... You've done rather well for yourself over three decades, however, so I'm quite confident you'll work all of this out in time... Good luck!

DDT (12)

[Jess from VA]

Jess,

I hate it for ya, bud! I'm afraid this non-handy guy has no advice to offer... The only solution that works for me is to simply not own a roof/ceiling in the first place.... You've done rather well for yourself over three decades, however, so I'm quite confident you'll work all of this out in time... Good luck!

DDT (12)

Thanks Bruce.  It never occurred to me to have them just take the roof away.      The walls seem OK. 

[Jess from VA]

Well, I just got off the phone with my master craftsman brother.

He said the leak is almost certainly the flashing between the 1 and 2 story.  The ceiling leak is very close to the flashing.

He said to stay out of the attic (great news).

He said to have roofers demo the roof enough to replace the flashing edge, top to bottom, then just re-shingle the entire side of the one story roof from ridge vent to gutter, on top the existing shingle (which appears to be in great shape).

Over time, the shingles get cemented together and there is no good way to sister up new shingles to old shingles.

He said I probably won't get any Niagara Falls through the roof if it takes awhile to get it done.  Here's hoping.   

[DDT (12)]

Jess,

Another thing I'm obviously not good at... Choosing my words carefully when corresponding with a lawyer!!!    Thanks for bringing a smile to my face, my friend... 

DDT (12)

[bassman]

Do you have or know someone who has a thermal imaging camera?  You can probably track the entire route of the water trail back to the original source with one.  Might be worth it to hire someone with expertise with one to pinpoint the source?


https://www.flir.com/discover/professional-tools/how-to-detect-a-water-leak-with-thermal-imaging/

[Jess from VA]

Thanks Bassman,

The collective wisdom being to demo the whole flashing between the 1 and 2 story and replace it (correctly), then re-shingle the whole side of that roof, appears to make the actual location of the leak sort of academic.

Unless of course there remains a leak after all that is done.   

[Robert]

Thanks Bassman,
Unless of course there remains a leak after all that is done.   

Are you feeling lucky today punk? 

I hate taking chances, but your probably good, and glad you got the problem under control. Roof leaks just are a real PIA.

In one of Clint Eastwoods most famous quotes. 
https://youtu.be/I530sPVQSc8?si=bWJt3s5HzOF2cSza

[Hook#3287]

Thanks Bill.  (It's Bill, right?  Old memories fade.)

Yeah Jess, Bill.  In your defense, we only met once at Inzane.

The reason I suggested going into the attic was for locating the leak.  Hopefully you can see where the infiltration starts.

The leak could be from the peak, as Jeff stated, so removing all the shingles over the flashing would be futile.  Then there's the flashing under the siding that could cause a leak that will only show up during specific conditions.

Great fun.  Enjoy.

[sidecarwilliam]

Before you get too far into this you may wish to get an infrared camera and take a look through the panel into the attic. And maybe across the ceiling also.
If the water came that way it will leave a trace that lasts until the water dries and/or reaches room temp. You might be surprised what you will see and it is pretty fool proof.
YMMV

bill.

[Jess from VA]

Yeah Jess, Bill.  In your defense, we only met once at Inzane.

Yes I remember.  (sometimes)

The reason I suggested going into the attic was for locating the leak.

I'm not going in there, esp down on the stringers buried under free fiberglass.  If any of my 3-4 roofer contacts want to climb down there and do it, it's OK with me.  But I think most of the roof demo will still have to be done wherever it is (on or close to the 1 and 2 story junction, from the ridge down).

If you'd like to do it, I'll buy lunch.   

[ridingron]

While you're re-roofing, I would get rid of the ridge vent. I'm 3 for 3 on leaking ridge vents. I did have vents installed when the ridge vent was shingled over.

[Jess from VA]

While you're re-roofing, I would get rid of the ridge vent. I'm 3 for 3 on leaking ridge vents. I did have vents installed when the ridge vent was shingled over.

My master carpenter brother said the same thing about getting rid of the ridge vents.  He said the big vertical vents in the outside peaks were all you need (and perhaps exhaust fans if needed).  He called ridge vents a source of trouble and worthless. 

[da prez]

  Just an FYI.  If you hire a company and direct the job to be done and it still leaks , it's on your nickel.
 Tell them the issue and also say that this is the suggestion made. Then , it's on their nickel if it leaks again.

                                          da prez

[Jess from VA]

  Just an FYI.  If you hire a company and direct the job to be done and it still leaks , it's on your nickel.
 Tell them the issue and also say that this is the suggestion made.  Then , it's on their nickel if it leaks again.

                                          da prez

Yeah Ross, despite my (repeated) personal interest, I am a rookie roofer/roof leak diagnoser.

I do my best to carefully inspect and diagnose, and then pass on my findings and suggestions.   But I do not direct the work.  (except I am going to insist on new flashing at the 1-2 story junction).

I'm going to tell them what my master carpenter brother told me and ask them to address that. 

Decades ago when I did over 300 divorces, I had a number of clients who thought to tell me how to do my job.  I listened, but I did it my way (or I punted them as clients).

Client control in the law is quite the art form.  Happily I've been out of that terrible (divorce) business for a long time.  Even with that background, when the wife and I separated for good, I hired the best female Mormon divorce lawyer in town, told her my thoughts, but she ran the show.  (Not licensed in VA, though I was qualified to waive into the VA bar.)   Her 17 page separation agreement was a piece of bulletproof art.   

[Robert]

While you're re-roofing, I would get rid of the ridge vent. I'm 3 for 3 on leaking ridge vents. I did have vents installed when the ridge vent was shingled over.

Yup, agree, with this idea.

[Hook#3287]

Ridge vents are part of a system of moisture mitigation in unheated attic space. A ridge vent works with soffit venting and natural convection to remove humane caused moisture from otherwise closed space.

Properly installed, ridge vents rarely leak and if they do, it's usually minor from wind driven rain.

Every situation is different, so a ridge vent may not be needed in your attic area, but if it is and you remove it without providing another path for moisture removal, minor  sporadic leaking will be the least of your problems.  Rotted structure and mold will happen over time.  Might not be in your life time, but eventually.

Are there other ways to remove the moisture? Absolutely. But soffit to ridge is the best passive system.

Another consideration is climate.  If you live in an area that has snow accumulation, then those roof mounted vent boxes are just another hole in your roof system.  Can you spell ice dam?  They are only as good as the installer and may not be a problem for years till the correct weather pattern hits. Warranty? Nope.

[Jess from VA]

Got my first inspection today.

A fix and not a whole roof is proposed.  It looks promising. 

The ridge vent will stay (or rather, they don't need to work up there)

I'm still getting a couple more inspections. 

[scooperhsd]

  Just an FYI.  If you hire a company and direct the job to be done and it still leaks , it's on your nickel.
 Tell them the issue and also say that this is the suggestion made.  Then , it's on their nickel if it leaks again.

                                          da prez

Yeah Ross, despite my (repeated) personal interest, I am a rookie roofer/roof leak diagnoser.

I do my best to carefully inspect and diagnose, and then pass on my findings and suggestions.   But I do not direct the work.  (except I am going to insist on new flashing at the 1-2 story junction).

I'm going to tell them what my master carpenter brother told me and ask them to address that. 

Decades ago when I did over 300 divorces, I had a number of clients who thought to tell me how to do my job.  I listened, but I did it my way (or I punted them as clients).

Client control in the law is quite the art form.  Happily I've been out of that terrible (divorce) business for a long time.  Even with that background, when the wife and I separated for good, I hired the best female Mormon divorce lawyer in town, told her my thoughts, but she ran the show.  (Not licensed in VA, though I was qualified to waive into the VA bar.)   Her 17 page separation agreement was a piece of bulletproof art.   

What's that saying -  "a man who is his own lawyer has a fool for a client " - That was probably one of the smartest decisions you ever made.

[Jess from VA]

Actually, it's OK to be your own lawyer on small or intermediate matters (if you know what you're doing).

But not in larger and more important matters (even if you know what you're doing).

That was probably one of the smartest decisions you ever made.

Actually, it was kind of a no brainer.   

The entertaining part of this story is that when the wife saw a local divorce lawyer, and told him I was a long experienced attorney, he wanted $10K up front to represent her.

So she got no lawyer, but I was more than fair with her right down the line, and still am. 

[Robert]

Got my first inspection today.

A fix and not a whole roof is proposed.  It looks promising. 

The ridge vent will stay (or rather, they don't need to work up there)

I'm still getting a couple more inspections. 

Congrats at settling the problem and securing your house and peace