How do I recognize hydra lock damage during a test ride?

[stickman]

HI, My name is Ed from NC, USA.  I have just joined this board and am very interested in buying my first Valk.  I test rode one when the 97 model came out and have wanted one ever since. 

Here is where I need some help.  I have done some reading on the dreaded hydra lock with the Valkyrie and it occurs to me that I may test ride one and never recognize the symptoms.  So, tell me what condition or conditions I might encounter that would be probable  warning signs of damage due to hydralock?  Any input will be much appreciated.  Trying to thaw out here in Carolina. Ed

[f6john]

    If it is hydo-locked you won't be riding it. If it is leaking gas into the cylinder or cylinders and it hasn't already damaged the starter or bent a rod ect. you may find raw gas leaking out the weep hole in the front of the muffler can on one side or the other. If the bike starts and runs OK then with the bike running, turn the petcock off to see if the engine dies for lack of fuel in a minute or two ( this process is quicker if you turn the petcock to off while riding down the road). There are several ways to check the petcock for proper operation but this is the fastest.

[Friagabi]

Right on point. If it is hydrolocked it most likely will break the starter drive idler if you have a good battery and starter when you try to start it and then it won't crank over on the starter after that until someone pulls off the rear cover of the engine and repairs it. If you have to go this far then you will check the other devices installed to prevent this and you will most likely test the vacume petcock for proper operation a couple of times each riding season. If the vacume petcock has been removed then you are on your way to a hydrolock.

[fstsix]

If the Vacuum petcock has been removed you are on your way to hydrolock, ?

[Chrisj CMA]

If the Vacuum petcock has been removed you are on your way to hydrolock, ?

No!  If the gas is left on you are open for a hydrolock.  If the vacuum petcock is relied upon to function properly meaning you leave it "on" because it wont flow gas, thats just as bad as having one without a vacuum shut off and forgetting to turn it off.  Id rather rely on me turning it off. 

Another point about test riding a Valk that may have had previous hydrolock damage.  I would say listen real good to the starter.....if you are suspicious for any reason ask if you can disconnect the spark plug wires and turn her over a few times.  A bike damaged by this should make some rough nosies from the rear of the motor as the starter turns over and over.  If no strange noise and she starts, purrs like a kitten and you can ride it........chances are thers no issue from hydrolock

[Patrick]

I'm completely with Chris..

[Madmike]

Here is where I need some help.  I have done some reading on the dreaded hydra lock with the Valkyrie and it occurs to me that I may test ride one and never recognize the symptoms.  So, tell me what condition or conditions I might encounter that would be probable  warning signs of damage due to hydralock? 

This may be redundant but not certain by your post that you understand the failure so I offer the following ;

Hyda lock is short for "Hydraulic lock" which refers to the fact that most liquids will not have much change in volume when subjected to compression and if an engine has liquid (fuel, coolant etc.) in a cylinder and is turned over the engine will "lock up" if the fluid is trapped in a cylinder between the piston crown and the cylinder head .

What can happen on the Valks is that the fuel tank is above the engine and carburetors and so if the float actuated needle valve(s) in the carb(s) doesn't seal then gasoline in liquid form can flow into a cylinder and collect on top of the piston - this will happen when the bike is parked. 

Hydra lock damage occurs when you go to start the bike and the criteria has been met.  When the engine is turned over with the starter the piston comes up on compression, the valves are closed and so the fluid is trapped between the piston and cylinder head.  If there is sufficient fluid trapped in the cylinder it can damage the rod by bending it or most usually the starter and transmission gear train is damaged as the engine stalls against the liquid and the torque of the starter strips and splits gears..

You need a series of events to create a hydraulic lock and the subsequent damage:

The vacuum operated petcock needs to be in the "on" position and defective - this allows fuel to the carbs with the engine not running.

A carburetor(s) needs to have a defective float valve(s) which will allow fuel to overfill the float bowl and flow through the jets and intake into the cylinder.

The cylinder under the defective carb(s) needs to have come to a stop on the intake/compression cycles(s) in order for the fuel to be trapped by the valves.

If the effected cylinder is on the power/exhaust cycle there is opportunity for the fuel to be expelled through the exhaust valve when the engine is turned over.  If this happens I would expect to see fluid on the ground and smell gasoline.

As concerns detecting these conditions before they damage the engine you would have to check a few things:

The integrity of the fuel petcock to ensure that it is not allowing fuel past while the engine is shut off - f6 has already suggested a method of detecting this.

Integrity of float valves - engine (individual cylinders) will run rich if these are not sealing as it has the same effect as a high float setting.

As concerns a previous failure that has been repaired I think that Chris has offered good advice and as always when purchasing any piece of used equipment - buyer beware.





   

[Patrick]

Yep, and I'm of the opinion that a fuel filter[in-line] and a manual petcock is the best insurance against fuel-lock.. Every time my right hand heads for the key my left hand goes to the fuel valve.. Also every time I head toward the the starter button I just just barely tap that little thing until I know the engine is free or it starts..

[fstsix]

If the Vacuum petcock has been removed you are on your way to hydrolock, ?

I was thinking the same thing, just quoting the gentleman above,?   Hehehee.... Nitrous Fart;..i put a 250 hp shot on my 1984 Monte SS, 350 LT1, and has this Warning!!! DO NOT PUSH BUTTON with engine not running!!!   SO.......i did on accident filled the manifold with NOS and then tried to start it, BLEW the starter off the motor and was in 5 pieces on the garage floor took 3 teeth off the flywheel   Well off topic sorry but that scared the $hit out of me and had to take the dam tranni out to replace the flywheel 12.60 @ 108 MPH, DOT class stock tires full exhaust, pissed off a lot of Corvettes and Mustangs on the street LOL!

[Robert]

Air compresses liquid doesn't fstsix that's pretty cool. I wish I could have seen that.

[fstsix]

Hahah...Robert i could have used the help with the Trans i have hydrocked my bike with the blower before, Gravity feed carb with fuel pump regulator set to high, i knew it was full of fuel when i also seen gas pouring out the front of the carb.

[stickman]

Much more great info than I expected.  Many thanks to all.  What I was most concerned with as a prospective buyer was to be able to id non fatal damage.  Sounds like I will be ok if I listen carefully to the starter for unusual noises while cranking.  If in doubt, pull the plugs and turn it over to isolate the noise.  Otherwise, if she cranks good, runs and performs good I should be ok. 

Thanks all.  Great info.  Ed

[Patrick]

New England Dragway on Rt27 in Epping New Hampshire.. What memories from long long ago !!

[fstsix]

Seems like yesterday, 1000 cars that weekend, High dollar stuff there Supper Chevy show biggest event of the year, i built this car in the garage and painted it in the garage Low dollar project, i asked the Editor why me? he said no one ever hot rods Monte's,  it was different, and ran 12's all that day, looked like a sleeper, it is also in the magazine. my Valk is the same principal no one can see the blower a sleeper. BTW that red car is not a Chevelle ?

[f6john]

BTW that red car is not a Chevelle ?
[/quote]



     It must be a Beaumont then?

[fstsix]

F6john,  you win!! I never seen one until that weekend Canada built Chevelle with the Beumont badges.

[Patrick]

I've always preferred ' sleepers ' myself.. I always liked the ' shock ' factor that goes along with them..
All us from above the 'Mason-Dixon Line ' [nothing derogatory meant] used to see a number of Canadian built vehicles with these strange names like Beaumont, Parisienne,canso,maple leaf, laurentian, etc. .. I kinda miss that today..   

[fstsix]

Ya never know what a guy has in his trunk LOL!!!

[Patrick]

My experience with laughing gas is quite limited.. Its limited to 2 engines.. At least 40 yrs ago, I felt lucky[and happy] when I got a bottle from the hospital which i promptly plumbed into an intake.. I instantly grenaded those 2 engines before I found out about the need to provide a little extra fuel[ the things one does when young and foolish].. As a result, I've stuck with blowers [even though there are hard to hide at times],, and,, I still get a chubby when I hear them howl..  

[fstsix]

My experience with laughing gas is quite limited.. Its limited to 2 engines.. At least 40 yrs ago, I felt lucky[and happy] when I got a bottle from the hospital which i promptly plumbed into an intake.. I instantly grenaded those 2 engines before I found out about the need to provide a little extra fuel[ the things one does when young and foolish].. As a result, I've stuck with blowers [even though there are hard to hide at times],, and,, I still get a chubby when I hear them howl..  

Well got any old pics? inquiring minds just might want to see  what did ya used to run.

[Valkpilot]

Here is where I need some help.  I have done some reading on the dreaded hydra lock with the Valkyrie and it occurs to me that I may test ride one and never recognize the symptoms.  So, tell me what condition or conditions I might encounter that would be probable  warning signs of damage due to hydralock? 

This may be redundant but not certain by your post that you understand the failure so I offer the following ;

Hyda lock is short for "Hydraulic lock" which refers to the fact that most liquids will not have much change in volume when subjected to compression and if an engine has liquid (fuel, coolant etc.) in a cylinder and is turned over the engine will "lock up" if the fluid is trapped in a cylinder between the piston crown and the cylinder head .

What can happen on the Valks is that the fuel tank is above the engine and carburetors and so if the float actuated needle valve(s) in the carb(s) doesn't seal then gasoline in liquid form can flow into a cylinder and collect on top of the piston - this will happen when the bike is parked. 

Hydra lock damage occurs when you go to start the bike and the criteria has been met.  When the engine is turned over with the starter the piston comes up on compression, the valves are closed and so the fluid is trapped between the piston and cylinder head.  If there is sufficient fluid trapped in the cylinder it can damage the rod by bending it or most usually the starter and transmission gear train is damaged as the engine stalls against the liquid and the torque of the starter strips and splits gears..

You need a series of events to create a hydraulic lock and the subsequent damage:

The vacuum operated petcock needs to be in the "on" position and defective - this allows fuel to the carbs with the engine not running.

A carburetor(s) needs to have a defective float valve(s) which will allow fuel to overfill the float bowl and flow through the jets and intake into the cylinder.

The cylinder under the defective carb(s) needs to have come to a stop on the intake/compression cycles(s) in order for the fuel to be trapped by the valves.

If the effected cylinder is on the power/exhaust cycle there is opportunity for the fuel to be expelled through the exhaust valve when the engine is turned over.  If this happens I would expect to see fluid on the ground and smell gasoline.

As concerns detecting these conditions before they damage the engine you would have to check a few things:

The integrity of the fuel petcock to ensure that it is not allowing fuel past while the engine is shut off - f6 has already suggested a method of detecting this.

Integrity of float valves - engine (individual cylinders) will run rich if these are not sealing as it has the same effect as a high float setting.

As concerns a previous failure that has been repaired I think that Chris has offered good advice and as always when purchasing any piece of used equipment - buyer beware.

   

It appears to me that the large number of coincidental events that have to occur makes the likelyhood of hydraulic lock pretty low.  I'd put it way down on my list of things to worry about, even with a bad petcock.  That's not to say that I wouldn't fix a bad petcock, but certain calamity is not in the immediate future if you've kept a clean gas tank and regularly run a good carb cleaner through the system.

[Patrick]

pics ?, nope not really.. Too long ago and I'm not much into cameras.. I just bought one of those new fangled ones and haven't figured out how to use it yet,, haven't gotten anything from the camera to the 'puter yet.. 'puters and I are not friends.. Someone else has to take and send me the picture before i can do anything with it..
Want to see a grenaded engine?? It not from nitrous, but, it sure was an attention getter.. I'll be surprised if this works...

[Patrick]

Ooops, forgot.. What did I run?? I was born in a Studebaker parts room and grew up in Stude and Ford stores.. Like most, I cut my teeth on small Chevy's and Ford's,,but,, in the end I prefer and ran mostly Chrysler's.. About in 1971 when I watched my hero Ronnie Sox slide all 4 tires through the lights at English Town so he wouldn't break-out I decided drag racing was no longer for me and switched to pulling.. Right out of the pot and into the fire!! Sold the last engines just a little while ago..

[fstsix]

Patrick seen your plane while back......hardly even noticeable ??? WT? happened, Big fan of Swamp Rat  myself, Garlits,  was at  Lyons when blew his foot off, East Coast guy that got my attention and always been my hero as a kid.

[Patrick]

Don Garlits,, good guy.. I stopped by his place in Ocala a couple years ago and we had quite a talk.. Great place, I've never seen so many '39 Fords in one place and he's a big Studebaker fan too.. He even remembered me,but, I really think he was just being a gentleman..

[Gryphon Rider]

   If the bike starts and runs OK then with the bike running, turn the petcock off to see if the engine dies for lack of fuel in a minute or two ( this process is quicker if you turn the petcock to off while riding down the road). There are several ways to check the petcock for proper operation but this is the fastest.

I don't know if you've tried this, f6john, but an idling Valk takes FOREVER to stall out after the fuel valve is shut off.  My experience is 10-15 minutes.  With normal city residential riding, it could take more than a mile to die.