A/C Motor Running Monitor - Non Vallk

[carolinarider09]

This may sound a little strange and I know there is a way but I don't want to "experiment".  So....

I installed an A/C powered sump pump in my crawl space to help mitigate some water issues.  This was just before we had the crawl space sealed and had a dehumidifier installed.

Now, I don't want to have to go under the house every other month to see if things are ok.  In fact it's sort of hard to verify the pump is operating unless the sump is full. Yes you can sort of hear it through the flooring in the laundry room (just above where it's installed).  But not if it is raining hard outside (like now).

The pump is just below ground level and the discharge goes up and then slants down to the curtain wall and goes out via a drain line totally underground.

So, how can I tell if it is operating.  As I said I know there is a way, I just can't find a "device" to purchase. 

All you have to do is to put some coils of wire in or around one of the A/C power wires and then see the change in magnetic flux when the line is energized.  That's a very simple explanation.

I did a search on line and did not find a device. 

It could be something that you simply run the power cord through and, when there is current flow, the system will show the device is using power. 

There has got to be something out there I can just purchase and install.. 

So, anyone have any information on where I might find one or a circuit I can build one from.

Thanks for reading this far.

[Serk]

Is the device hard wired or is there a simple plug involved somewhere? I.E. Could you plug it into something like a Kill-A-Watt that shows draw of downstream devices to see if it's active?

https://www.amazon.com/P3-P4400-Electricity-Usage-Monitor/dp/B00009MDBU?th=1

[Jess from VA]

Brian posted before me with basically the same idea.


I'm no electrician, but (assuming the sump pump has it's own circuit) what about a small single circuit electric meter put on the sump pump electric line?

It's not going to sound an alarm, but if it's actively drawing power (working) the meter would confirm electric use and that the pump is working.  

They are priced from $20 to $300 apiece on Amazon.  

I know I wouldn't want some air raid siren wired into the pump so it sounds off when the pump kicks on.  

My basement refrigerator covers half of my sump pump hole in the floor.  All I have to do is walk into the utility room and listen for the pump, and if I can hear the water really pouring into the hole I know we better not get a power outage, or I have to get down and hand bail the SOB or get my whole house generator gassed up and running and back power the house (quickly before overflow).  

But my sump is not on it's own circuit, it's tied in to the utility room circuit.  

[RP#62]

If you have easy access to the power wire, you could put an amp clamp meter on it.  There's dozens of them on Amazon from $35 on up.  The down side is that you'll need to make up an intermediate test cord, i.e. a short extension cord with the individual wires accessible (you have to put the clamp around a single wire, if you do all of them, it'll cancel itself out.)  The up side is you'll have a meter that you can check the amp draw on anything else you'd need to. 

-RP

[Oss]

How about a cheap Bluetooth  camera
Point at drain hole

[carolinarider09]

Is the device hard wired or is there a simple plug involved somewhere? I.E. Could you plug it into something like a Kill-A-Watt that shows draw of downstream devices to see if it's active?

https://www.amazon.com/P3-P4400-Electricity-Usage-Monitor/dp/B00009MDBU?th=1

It's currently a "plug in" which I believe it will stay but I have access in the crawlspace to all the wiring.  None of it is in conduit.

Will look at the links. Thanks.

[carolinarider09]

Brian posted before me with basically the same idea.


I'm no electrician, but (assuming the sump pump has it's own circuit) what about a small single circuit electric meter put on the sump pump electric line?

It's not going to sound an alarm, but if it's actively drawing power (working) the meter would confirm electric use and that the pump is working.  

They are priced from $20 to $300 apiece on Amazon.  

I know I wouldn't want some air raid siren wired into the pump so it sounds off when the pump kicks on.  

My basement refrigerator covers half of my sump pump hole in the floor.  All I have to do is walk into the utility room and listen for the pump, and if I can hear the water really pouring into the hole I know we better not get a power outage, or I have to get down and hand bail the SOB or get my whole house generator gassed up and running and back power the house (quickly before overflow).  

But my sump is not on it's own circuit, it's tied in to the utility room circuit.  

Thanks.  That is sort of what I was looking for but did not do a proper search obviously.

[carolinarider09]

If you have easy access to the power wire, you could put an amp clamp meter on it.  There's dozens of them on Amazon from $35 on up.  The down side is that you'll need to make up an intermediate test cord, i.e. a short extension cord with the individual wires accessible (you have to put the clamp around a single wire, if you do all of them, it'll cancel itself out.)  The up side is you'll have a meter that you can check the amp draw on anything else you'd need to. 

-RP

That is what I was thinking about but could not get the vision right. Age I guess.  I shall do a search.

Thanks.

[carolinarider09]

Brian posted before me with basically the same idea.


I'm no electrician, but (assuming the sump pump has it's own circuit) what about a small single circuit electric meter put on the sump pump electric line?

It's not going to sound an alarm, but if it's actively drawing power (working) the meter would confirm electric use and that the pump is working.  

They are priced from $20 to $300 apiece on Amazon.  

I know I wouldn't want some air raid siren wired into the pump so it sounds off when the pump kicks on.  

My basement refrigerator covers half of my sump pump hole in the floor.  All I have to do is walk into the utility room and listen for the pump, and if I can hear the water really pouring into the hole I know we better not get a power outage, or I have to get down and hand bail the SOB or get my whole house generator gassed up and running and back power the house (quickly before overflow).  

But my sump is not on it's own circuit, it's tied in to the utility room circuit.  

Will give Amazon a look Jess. Thanks.

[GiG]

Your  description of  coils to check for change in magnetic flux is a spot- on description of how an ammeter operates with a clamp as a probe. The clamp is, in fact a coil, alternately, an ammeter can be wired in-series to measure current.  I’ve not looked at prices, but a meter like one you might use to troubleshoot the charging system on your bike is probably ~$35 (OSS recently purchased one…) it’ll require 9v batteries
Or
You could get  one that plugs into the ac outlet not requiring batteries

[Serk]

Oh wow... did some more googling on this.... Almost exactly your situation, with an interesting solution...

https://diy.stackexchange.com/questions/234126/is-there-such-a-thing-as-an-outlet-with-an-indicator-current-is-being-drawn

Looks like the specific master/slave power strip linked in the article is no longer available, but I searched this one up that appears to have the same functionality:

https://www.amazon.com/Maxlite-RECEPTACLES-Protection-APS-8-1350J/dp/B08H2JJJ2V/

[Timbo1]

Do a search for Energy monitor or Power monitor.

Some are for whole home but others are per circuit.  Really not that expensive but not in the $30 price range.

https://eyedro.com/product/eyedro-home/
https://www.amazon.com/Emporia-Monitor-Circuit-Electricity-Metering/dp/B08CJGPHL9

[carolinarider09]

Oh wow... did some more googling on this.... Almost exactly your situation, with an interesting solution...

https://diy.stackexchange.com/questions/234126/is-there-such-a-thing-as-an-outlet-with-an-indicator-current-is-being-drawn

Looks like the specific master/slave power strip linked in the article is no longer available, but I searched this one up that appears to have the same functionality:

https://www.amazon.com/Maxlite-RECEPTACLES-Protection-APS-8-1350J/dp/B08H2JJJ2V/

Yes the gentleman had the same question I have.  I looked at some of the ones that have those "clip over sensors" and that is what I was thinking of (I think as Timbo1 described above).  

My mind was not that sharp when I was trying to figure it out and I could not shape up that "clamp on ammeter" but its like a clamp on ammeter.  

Just need to see if I can find some clamp on ammeter sensors for 10 - 15 amp circuits.  Once I can find one of them and I can find out the output from the device when current is sensed I can rig up a monitoring system I am sure. But... Still planning.  

Been a while since I designed an electronic circuits.  Brain fog happens too at my age.

Here is something that will do the sensing.  Just a start (thought wise).  And I now remember the "Hall effect".

https://www.farnell.com/datasheets/3934187.pdf

Update:  I did not read the "full specs".  It's designed for automotive use.  does that mean D. C. sensing only????

[carolinarider09]

I think I found one but..... $182.00.   

And it would easily work because he power line I want to monitor is a 15 Amp wire  14/3 wire. 

Still looking.

Again, thanks for all the help and insight and I will welcome any further information.

The Monnit ALTA® Wireless 20 amp AC Current Meters remotely monitor your smallest power consumers. These sensors provide data on energy draw to help you lower costs and improve machine health by identifying and predicting maintenance needs.

https://www.monnit.com/products/sensors/current-meters/20-amp-ac-current-meter/

[ridingron]

I'm not an electrician. Could you hook up a light in parallel with the motor so the light comes on when the pump runs? Light could be located anywhere and any brightness.

[turtle254]

I have wall switches that have a small light in the switch lever that lights up when its in off position.
Light on; motor not running! Wire the pump switch to turn the pump on or the light on.
OR tie in to the power after the switch, run thru a small light to ground and light will be on when pump is running.

[Jess from VA]

I have wall switches that have a small light in the switch lever that lights up when its in off position.
Light on motor not running!

Ingenious.

I use those in my house in certain light switches (all three floors/split level/stairwells and exterior doors), so in the dark I don't kick the furniture or fall down the stairs.  

There's not enough light to see anything really, but the orientation of the little wall lights lets me navigate safely without lighting up the house every time I move around at night.  

Of course, they started out just being a way to find the switches in the dark.  But became navigation beacons over time.  

[carolinarider09]

I'm not an electrician. Could you hook up a light in parallel with the motor so the light comes on when the pump runs? Light could be located anywhere and any brightness.

.

The sump pump is turned on and off by a float switch located in the sump pump basin.  

The power cord enters the basin through its cover and connects to the pump and the float switch inside the basin.  Makes any changes in the connections a bit hard.

I actually thought about that today when I was under the house inspecting the sump pump and basin.

Just as an aside, when we (wife and I) built the house, one of the things I did was the wiring.  I took a course at the local Technical College that allowed me to get a contractors license if I passed the final test (which I did) and then got two years on the job experience.  

However, that was 15 years ago and I am not as confident as I once was and, as it turns out, the area the sump pump is in is where the wires from the main distribution panel come down.  Just a lot of wires.

And, it would appear I would have to join four or more wires using wire nuts and I am not sure if more then four are safe.

So, the sump pump is now powered by a separate "cable" running to the crawl space though a foundation wall vent (sealed).  That cable is plugged into the same outlet that powers the freezer we have on the back porch.

So I will know if power is interrupted to the pump because the freezer loses power.   Makes it easy to use a "clamp on" monitor also.  

The sump pump is important because prior to having the crawl space "encapsulated" one of the big issues  was water entering the lower back side of the house crawlspace from outside.    I found out where it was coming in from (general location) and installed some "drain pipes" to channel the flow to the location where I put the sump pump basin.

Dug the hole for the basin and noted water coming in (over a few days), so I was fairly confident I had the right spot.

Sorry for the long post.

[Jess from VA]

Jim, about a year after I bought my house 30+ years ago (with very hidden defect of entire drain field under house compromised), after 5 days of rain, I took 90 gallons of water out of my finished basement.  The repair was a terrible experience inside my house.  (jackhammers and digging mud and old drain tile carried out in buckets, since you can't get heavy equipment in a basement.)

So I am paranoid about my sump pump (now mated to a solid drain field). 

[carolinarider09]

I do understand Jess.

Just for the record, it was not unit the wife and I moved to Hope, MI (working for Consumers Power at the Midland Nuclear Plant under construction) that we had a basement.  And the issue of having a sump pump was right there front and center.  We only stayed there two years but.... Just one more experience. 

[vanagon40]

This is what I purchased to trouble-shoot my water heater tripping the breaker: DROK Amp Meter

It is only $15. The red light blinks when the circuit actually drawing power. It shows the volts (on or off, so you know the circuit is still hot), and the amp and power (kw) when something (in your case, the sump pump) is actually running. It has memory and will show the kwh used to date. By keeping track of the kwh, you will know that the pump powered up even if that occurred while you were sleeping. By running for small wires, you can put the meter in any remote location.

[carolinarider09]

This is what I purchased to trouble-shoot my water heater tripping the breaker: DROK Amp Meter

It is only $15. The red light blinks when the circuit actually drawing power. It shows the volts (on or off, so you know the circuit is still hot), and the amp and power (kw) when something (in your case, the sump pump) is actually running. It has memory and will show the kwh used to date. By keeping track of the kwh, you will know that the pump powered up even if that occurred while you were sleeping. By running for small wires, you can put the meter in any remote location.

That's really pretty cool and is a lot cheaper than my find above.  Being wired is ok. 

I have one other device I'd like to monitor in the crawl space.  That's the dehumidifier.   

Thanks..

[carolinarider09]

I just noted, in doing more research on the suggested items, that it appears that the devices only work when placed around a "single" wire.

That is, if you ran 14/2 (two wires for AC (black and white) and a bare wire (ground) you would have to install the "clamp" type adapters/sensors around only the black wire.  Not a major issue but an issue but if you have the 14/2 running from point A (the power source) to point B (the load) you would have to remove the wire outer coating, separate the black and white wires, place place the sensor around the black wire.

This leaves the black and white wires out on the open, so to speak.  Again, not a major issue in a secure space. 

I just watched a video about installation in which the gentleman, doing the install, pulled the cover from a breaker panel and then just reach inside and place two sensors. One around the wire feeding breaker "A" and one around the wire feeding breaker "B". 

They are just left in the panel not secured just there. 

Oh and the guy had a lot more room in his breaker panel.   Mine is sort of crowed.

Still looking.

[RP#62]

I just noted, in doing more research on the suggested items, that it appears that the devices only work when placed around a "single" wire.

That's why I worded reply #3 the way I did.
-RP

[carolinarider09]

That's why I worded reply #3 the way I did.
-RP

And you were correct sir.  When I read it I read it as part of your specific solution but it's, as you stated, a fact for the process or situation in total.   

I just was, I guess, hoping for a one and done solution.   I saw those "wire rings" or "clamp like devices" and just did not follow your train of thought (or the science behind it).

If I had thought of the need for this at the beginning and researched a solution, I could have easily solved the problem by using a dual receptacle box for each of the devices I wanted to measure.  More than enough room in one of them to allow for the sensor and an easy way to get the sensor connection out. 

Oh well.   I will find a way. 

But thanks again for the feedback and assistance.  Really appreciated. 

[scooperhsd]

What about something like this ? I know it's a bit overkill for a single circuit, but ...

https://www.amazon.com/Smart-Energy-Monitor-Circuit-Sensors/dp/B0C79PNK84/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2AN0GLEQ2CF2T&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.Rz8Wo8P8ahdniC9755TOgTNfGMDqUHwRn9pTxhU79s0lQBwF8nJxGETWXuBwabku1NQ5JEzbaan2QAjDK6trUXwkTno4G4fqrruT4F2BK2u0bcV7Ix29TDoVnbPDsp7A-JIEDiKWJTspN4YwP0GeL-lMnkDHrbmCId1JdyWMBiExlQJkOI0Ikqd9ar_iNWtnmgdtgy8RUx9FWVxsYwFo_5N2zpbVKZyhTExMr-XzE8okSu3fZ-U_F_3wOl6VBKOOAXSKlveCqnf4ZrKWZkfORPnNkWGYKD5O1Bc6xyJzFME.gLr8bSQc2D4DcEPEQU0Ga23ioPhka_cAIMha8vdmh7Q&dib_tag=se&keywords=emporia%2Bvue%2Bgen%2B3&qid=1720579409&sprefix=emporia%2Caps%2C168&sr=8-1&th=1

I want one just to monitor power usage in conjunction with backup generator .

[Jersey mike]

Can I ask, where does the water discharge? I know you said the drain is buried but does it drain into a dry well or surface discharge on the lawn?

I’m guessing that the only time you get water innthe crawl is during a rainy period so if it’s dry out the pump should not be pumping unless you have a high water table that is constantly in need of being pumped under the house.

[carolinarider09]

Can I ask, where does the water discharge? I know you said the drain is buried but does it drain into a dry well or surface discharge on the lawn?

I’m guessing that the only time you get water innthe crawl is during a rainy period so if it’s dry out the pump should not be pumping unless you have a high water table that is constantly in need of being pumped under the house.

The discharge is under ground to  (for lack of a better term) a drain system I put in to collect the runoff from part of the roof that does not have gutters (above ground rock lined trench) and the gutter down spout.  With the exception of the runoff connection it is all under ground (about a foot or so). 

Yes, to my knowledge, the water accumulation is due to rain water that somehow gets into the clay soil and then moves to the lower part of the under house enclosed area (AKA Crawl Space). 

Long story next.

When I built the house, I installed the foundation drain lines (plastic pipe with those little slots and then the pipe was covered in a fabric to prevent (I guess) dirt from entering).

Since the land the house was built on slopes from from to back, the crawl space is "higher" in the back corner of the house.  That is where the water collects. 

I put in the required plastic "liner" in the crawl space but, since the house we were moving from had a crawl space that got "lined" after some issues we had and when I would go under the house to research an issue, the plastic sometimes had water on it. So, not fun to crawl around.  So, to minimize that, I added sand on my new house crawlspace on top of the plastic liner.

When I went under the house (last time to research the water), I noted that the sand was wet only on the  rigth side towards the right rear of the crawl space.  That was also the place I put a concrete pad for a hot water heater (we never put one there just go one of those instant on Rinnnai hot water heaters.

If you looked the sand, you could see the it was wet from the rear and a little forward on the right hand side.  The thought, initially was, that water was leaking in to the foundation at that point (not the back but about 20 feet forward) and running down hill.

That was not the case.  The water was actually entering the crawlspace on there right back corner area.  The sand cause the water to be sucked up his (there is a word for it but I cannot remember it). 

I dug a hole (sized for a sump pump basin) to confirm my analysis.  And sure enough, over the next 24 hours that hole filled with water.  Not to the top but definitely coming from that area. 

So that is where the sump pump is. 

Is it possible that the ground water (were I discharge the rain gutters and the pipe around the foundation) is the culprit?  Yes. but, the since the footer is actually low enough to sort block water entry from run off ..... 

Postimages is down right now but this is a picture (dropbox) of the rear of the foundation. 

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/ggoi9er0zne6d1d3i4cq0/DSCN0751.JPG?rlkey=1j1wlwkhrtmhr00nkx4qqtmhf&st=3r1qoq5e&dl=0

Just a long story.   

If I did not mention if above or before, I went under the house to look at the area in question.   The white plastic they laid down was not damp or wet but there were a couple of areas in the corner pictured above that had some rings that were probably caused by water, just in one are that as a little lower.  Might be a humidity thing.  Under the plastic, however, was damp in the corner.  Temperature was 73 degrees and the humidity was about 62%.  That area (where the sump pump is) is where I monitor the craw space temperature and humidity. 

Sorry for the long post. 

[Robert]

All the above is good but, How about a camera, for 50.00? Could get an app for your phone along with the alarm for water level and you could visually see the level. Any device that shows amps or draw will not tell you if the pump is actually pumping. It may just be on and running. If its too dark get the spot light camera so you can turn on the lights. But they work in almost total darkness. A clear tube for water outlet you will be able to see flow, and a float with a stick and marked level will be able to keep track of level if you cannot physically see the pump.

The  Nest cam is small can use it outdoors, can keep video and easy install. Other wise any camera that has internet and phone app. I do it for the bird feeder to see the birds and at the business to keep the stock monitored.

[Serk]

$11.99...

https://www.amazon.com/Electricity-Electrical-Consumption-Backlight-Protection/dp/B09BQNYMMM/?th=1

Plug it into the outlet, plug the pump into it, watch for the amperage draw, if it's drawing amperage, it's running...

Can also watch for problems if it starts drawing more amps than it usually does.

[carolinarider09]

$11.99...

https://www.amazon.com/Electricity-Electrical-Consumption-Backlight-Protection/dp/B09BQNYMMM/?th=1

Plug it into the outlet, plug the pump into it, watch for the amperage draw, if it's drawing amperage, it's running...

Can also watch for problems if it starts drawing more amps than it usually does.

Thanks Serk.  Will add it to the review list. 

[Oss]

What was wrong with my post?
You can see at any time if water coming out
Very cheap and you only need to know that not amps

[Robert]

What was wrong with my post?
You can see at any time if water coming out
Very cheap and you only need to know that not amps

i didn't know you posted that, I like the idea, obviously. 

[carolinarider09]

How about a cheap Bluetooth  camera
Point at drain hole

My apologies OSS, I did not respond to your post.   

It is an interesting idea.  I have similar cameras (more expensive ones) for home security monitoring. 

The sump pump its discharge piping buried underground (only a few inches and then about 10 inches at the discharge point.  The pump's discharge enters the drain used by the gutter drain piping and also has an above the ground "inlet" to allow rain water that is accumulated on the one side of the house to drain away from the house.   

I don't think the camera would be able to see the water flow. 

Based on your suggestion, I did consider a "sound monitor" but.... if the pump did not run while we were actually home, we would not know if the pump ran at all. 

Here is a picture of the under ground pump discharge location. 

[carolinarider09]

I ordered three devices from Amazon.  

Two were DROK meters (5 Amp and 10 Amp $10 and $11) and one was Morning Group Device (100 Amp $19.95).

I don't usually purchase things to see how they are made or how they work and since I am an Amazon Prime member, I wanted to see what they were and if they would work.

The two DORK devices were dorky.  They were rated at 5 Amps and 10 Amps but to use them you had to run the load through the device (no external sensor like the Morning Group Device had).  I was not going to run up to 10 amps A/C at 120 V (or 1,140 watts ) through that circuit.  So I simply returned them after looking them over.

The Morning Group Device did come with a sensor and it was $20.  So,,,,, I am keeping it and will do some testing.  

The main issue is that I wanted the devices to be sort of remote readouts and figured I could simply run the leads for the sensor to the display and then power the display from a separate 120 VAC source (wish they would have them designed for low D/C for power to the device.  Sensor would still work).

So...... I kept the one and will experiment with it.  Again, the only cautionary tale is that 120 VAC is what, when I was in Navy, we called the "Deadly Shipmate".   Many, many times people would sort of say, when working in A/C circuits, "Hey it's only 120 volts, not that 4,160 VAC from the generator".  

It also seems that these devices (the cheap ones) are being used to monitor or calculate (don't really know how it works) Crypto Currency devices.   Never crossed my mind.

Oh, it appears the 100 AMP DROK Device does come with a sensor.  

Will probably get this device after I play with the Morning Group Device and see how it works.  Only issue is it appears to need create an account on your phone to allow you to remotely monitor the device.  And it does coast more.  However, it runs off AAA batteries with a reported 10 year's life

https://www.monnit.com/products/sensors/current-meters/20-amp-ac-current-meter/

[Jess from VA]

Jim, my (very) low tech solution to finding out if the sump pump was running was to drill a hole in the floor, and get down and put your ear to the hole and listen for the pump motor.   

Of course, most sump pumps will pump the hole nearly dry of water in 3-5 seconds, so you'd have to get down and listen quickly.   

[carolinarider09]

Jim, my (very) low tech solution to finding out if the sump pump was running was to drill a hole in the floor, and get down and put your ear to the hole and listen for the pump motor.   

Of course, most sump pumps will pump the hole nearly dry of water in 3-5 seconds, so you'd have to get down and listen quickly.   

 

[Serk]

My even lower tech solution!

...live in an area that doesn't have basements, and thus no sump pumps either! 

[carolinarider09]

My even lower tech solution!

...live in an area that doesn't have basements, and thus no sump pumps either! 

Yes, an option for us (wife and family) years past.  Our first home (we purchased or had a mortgage on) was in Crystal River, FL.  Just a few miles from the Gulf.  It was built on a "slab".

Cool.  No under the building stuff to see or look for, all wiring I guess was up in the attic where the HVAC system (minus the outside stuff) was located. 

Issue with slabs.  If you get enough rain even in a place with some sand as the first part of the soil your house is situated on you will get rain intrusion. 

Basements, mean more work for water control. 

Now crawl spaces are generally not to bad but I had ours encapsulated to try and lower the over all HVAC costs and maintain the integrity of the foundation pieces.  That's the reason for a sump pump in a crawl space. 

The sump pump is important to keeping the crawl space dry which is why I want to monitor its operation.