Final Drive Banging Noise

[Peteg]

Last Sunday I was pulling up the big grade 12 miles north of Durango Co shortly after the install chains here pull off and I started getting a loud banging. It was like the wheel was hitting the frame or a chunk came out of the tire. After making sure nothing was hitting the wheel or moveable suspension parts and checking the rear brake carefully, I road it back down hill 12 miles to Durango. Going down hill there were a few times it didn't even make noise, but mostly it did. It was a banging noise with associated vibration as if someone was hitting the bike with a hammer. The noise was consistent with bike / wheel speed or the frequency did not change with gear, only with bike speed. It did it coasting down the hill clutch in or out. It wasn't noticeable say below 5 mph.

Got it home last night. Jacked it up today. Turning the rear wheel in neutral every thing feels really smooth, but turning the rear wheel back and forth with the engine off and the bike in gear I measure 5/8" free play at a point on the outer rim. Is that just normal spiral bevel free play? I was able to reproduce the noise a little with the bike running tire up. only did 1st and second slow, but it did it a little at the higher speed. I'm off to grab a stethoscope, but I figured I'd post this and see if anyone knows the exact issue from my symptoms description.  Also I watched a bunch of you tube videos and the banging seems to be a lot more consistent with drive shaft / u joint issues. I know I'll need to take it apart, just would like to have it diagnosed before tear down if possible.

I guess if I lash the bike down really well and run it a little faster, I might locate it with the stethoscope or even feel it through the boot if it's the u joint.

[sandy]

You’ve diagnosed it correctly. It’s in the drive from U joint to rear wheel. Take it apart and take a look see.
Let’s hope it’s a U joint. If the drive shaft to pinion cup is bad, you might be down for awhile. Shafts are back ordered.

[csj]

I had a bunch of banging noise, similar to what you describe.

I was certain it was the u-joint. Got a new one. Pulled it apart.
Hmmm. Old joint looks and feels good.

Put all back together, go down the road. Noises are still there.

Jacked her up again and found left side bearing was
Falling apart.

Point is, the dead bearing can make you think it's
A u-joint.

[Skinhead]

Jack up the rear wheel, grab the tire at 9 and 3 and try to shake it side to side.  You should feel and be able to see movement at the left side of the bearing is bad.

[Peteg]

Wow guys, really good input. I really needed it, as I'm in you don't know what you don't know territory. So I'm really slow and tomorrow I need to pickup the wife, so I'll be even slower. I got the bike home and the main ac unit was down in this Texas heat.

So as of this morning I'm ready to pull her into the shop for teardown, but I saw CSJ's comment and I wanted to add seafoam & suck it into the carbs, and check out my new Stethoscope. So the noise changes with speed. I went through all 5 gears at idle up and down with the stethoscope (left axle end, pumpkin, swing arm at pumpkin, swing arm at u-joint, and rear of transmission case. I'm convinced it's on the rear axle line and it is worst at the left bearing, but that's where I get best contact with the stethoscope.

Skinhead thanks, I had already checked the runout, first thing when I got home. It was good and I did a visual on the left side grease seal. Everything looked good. I think there's a good chance it's the left wheel bearing anyway, possibly one of the other 4 on the axle line, maybe even a spine. It seems like I'll find it when I remove the wheel, or maybe not the way my lucks been running.

[Valker]

It sounds like the wheel bearing. I've replaced so many of those on my three Valks.

[Peteg]

So you guys have done this before. The left side wheel bearing is toast. The right might have a rough spot likely because of what the left was doing on the other side. So I guess I'll be ordering wheel bearings. Is that best honda bearings off partzilla, or do you guys go with all balls or some other good option? Also based on what I heard with the Stethoscope I don't suspect the drive shaft or pumpkin  input cup at all, I guess I would need some orings to go there. The wheel hub / pumpkin splines look good. I'm thinking just grease them up new orings (which I already have) and back together.

I'm obviously not a mechanic, spent a lot of time observing and home mechanics. I was just in here about 2000 miles ago doing the rear tire and the bearings seemed good. Chris thinks I got the pumpkin out of alignment because I use a MC jack to help position the rear wheel. I guess maybe he's right. To me as long as the 4 pumpkin bolts are loose and the axle slides freely by hand prior to torquing the axle the pinchup torque (over 80 ft-lbs)  has to pull all 5 inner races into alignment along with the pumpkin. I haven't even loosened the 4 pumpkin nuts yet and the axle slid right out.  I don't use the shock replacement bar, just hang the swing arm with a strap. I'll be sure the lift isn't carrying any weight this time.

[Valker]

Loosen the four swingarm to final nuts, Torque everything like the axle with the four loose. Tighten them only AFTER the axle is torqued. You can probably buy generic bearing by the # at a local auto supply.
Wheel Bearings
1997 Front 6004-2RS
1998-2000
Front, 6204-2RS or 6204LL
And all models left rear 6204-2RS or 6204LL
(same bearing different mfg.) 6204 is size, letters
indicate sealed both sides. See below about seal
designation
1997-2000 All right rear 5204?? Double Row
Angular Contact Bearing
They need to be sealed both sides.
MRC #5204ZZ
RSR #5204EE
IKS #52042RS
The list goes on, and on. Just get a 5204 that is
sealed on both sides. Mfg's use different suffixes
to designate seal configuration. The list would be
as long as my arm. And if you ask for a 5204 2RS
and the child behind the counter knows nothing
about bearings, he may tell you they don't have
it. But they do have 5204ZZ's. But that isn't
what you asked for.
If you have a "bearing house" nearby go there
and ask for a 5204 with seals on both sides, then
keep a spare at home. T

[Chrisj CMA]

@peteg.  Anyone can have a wheel bearing go bad. Doesn’t mean you did anything wrong. Now, if there’s noticeably more wear on the drive splines since you put it together last time, that’s a different story. Hope all is ok. Trust me, I know the pain of having to tear the rear apart twice in a row.

[Peteg]

Valker, thanks but I'm still a bit confused. I'm unfamiliar the term double sealed bearings. I assume it means greased and sealed at the factory for the life of the bearings. If I'm looking at the left side by the spacer there is a seperate part, Partzilla calls it a  DUST SEAL (30X47X8) (ARAI) 91253-443-761. Do I just ask the kid behind the counter for a dust seal to go with the 6204 bearing?

[Valker]

Valker, thanks but I'm still a bit confused. I'm unfamiliar the term double sealed bearings. I assume it means greased and sealed at the factory for the life of the bearings. If I'm looking at the left side by the spacer there is a seperate part, Partzilla calls it a  DUST SEAL (30X47X8) (ARAI) 91253-443-761. Do I just ask the kid behind the counter for a dust seal to go with the 6204 bearing?

The dust seal is a separate part from the bearing. Sealed on both sides just means there is a rubber seal on both sides to protect the inside of the bearing. A seal is very easy to carefully remove. I always grease the bearings before install. I carefully remove a seal on one side, pack it with grease, then reseat the seal. Most folks do not open the seal and add more grease. To each their own.

[Skinhead]

Do you and the bike a favor and do the double row bearing mod.  You will not have a second failure.

[h13man]

I had the small #6204 bearing fail but the The large #5204 OEM was fine and still going. Basically if the big one had failed I would have replaced both bearings. BTW this was my call as I do my own maintenance regardless opinions otherwise. I found that OEM Honda uses the hard red sealed bearings and the seal is made of phenolic material that ages and crumble/breaks. I always use double rubber sealed (2RS) bearings as replacements. I use a draw bolt/threaded rod setup to install bearings making sure I set it up to press ONLY on the outer races of the bearing. A good ole pair HF calipers come in handy me finding the right diameter socket. 

PS, I don't use my Brown&Sharpe calipers unless I need to use the T bar attachment for everyday use.

[Peteg]

Cool Valker thanks! Not sure when I'll get to this, the wife flys in today lol, but I want to have all parts in hand. I have the orings. Do you guys typically reuse the thrust washer too?

My manual shows a special removal tool. I feel a good lip on the outer races. Can't I just put a drift pin in and slide the spacer around as I tap tap tap them out?

I was planning on pressing them in with all thread, outer race contact only. I have a friend down the street who does cars. I'd bring the wheel and bearings to him, but he's on vacation in Arizona.

Doesn't going to the double bearing involve a machine shop?

[Skinhead]

Doesn't going to the double bearing involve a machine shop?

You have to have the outer spacer cut down to 5/8" for the double row mod, a machine shop is the best way to get the 2 surfaces parallel, all that is needed is a small lathe or a surface grinder.  It is worth the $20 or whatever the shop would charge.

[Peteg]

Thanks skinhead, something to consider. I was on a camping trip with a lot of weight on a hitch hauler, so I'm thinking I had about 60 lbs centered about 2' outboard of the axle (trunk & hitch hauler) and about 60 lbs directly over the axle. My wife has been leaning away from motorcycles lately, but I'm wanting to get her out again this fall. Either way I'm looking to get her back taking light touring vacations with me or separate vacations once per year. I wish I still had the corporate training materials from the negotiating with difficult people course.   I think I'm going to slap the bike back together now so I can ride her, but will definitely consider modifying before I do any heavy load riding. I'd hate to break down like this again. I absolutely do not want to get stuck on the side of the road with the wife. No good can come from that!

[Jims99]

I have done the bearing mod on all my valks. The spacer needs to be cut down.260” and my machine shop only charges $5 each. This should help to never have to worry about them again.

[Jackl0426]

im going through drivetrain woes. found bad shaft and pinion cup. i have it all torn down. ujoint seems ok but never know. wanted to change ujoint too anyways and if nothing ill have a spare. but now shafts and cups are availabe within a week and ujoints are non existent again. honda backourder with no date on availability. so once i get back together could still be a ujoint issue and no availability. fun fun.

[Valker]

I did the double row md on mine before riding to Alaska in June. When I was checking and changing the rear brake pads just two weeks ago, I noticed the left bearing was trashed. I went back with the stock setup. I do change the bearings now every year. The double mod had about 15,000 miles on it.

[Peteg]

Valker, thanks for driving me absolutely freaking crazy. You really didn’t do too much, as I was almost there without any help. I’m just making this post in case anyone can help me understand these rear bearings - Probably a lot more difficult than what was accomplished in the first sentence above.
You seem to be very in touch with your bike, but the obvious question is riding to Alaska with a make shift dust seal, do you see any evidence of dust seal / bearing seal violation? It’s only one bearing, maybe Chinese manufacturing infant mortality?
Now my long take on why I’m running double row on the left side: It seems like there is good rider experience indicating left side double row is the way to go, but that’s not enough for me, as I always need to drive myself crazy trying to understand. When I asked myself why Honda put 3 single row bearings on the bike, I speculated as follows:  All bearings run the same speed and the rear bearings are more heavily loaded than the front. Torque transmitted by a spline as opposed to a sprocket should add no eccentric bearing load.  So my guess is the reason the right side rear bearing is most heavily loaded is it’s closer to rear wheel center than the left, thus it takes more of the vertical load than the left. I still feel it’s reasonable to assume that when a single row bearing is on the left rear it’s the bearing with the lowest service factor on the bike. Certainly a double row should have a higher service factor than a single row unless there’s really something magic going on????
I guess Paul Simon said still crazy after all these years.

[Valker]

 
Why should you be different? I drive myself nuts. I had to change rear brake pads quickly before I left on this month long sojourn I’m on now started. It was a fluke (a fortunate, blessed fluke) that I even saw the bearing. I had to rapidly replace it to leave the next day, so instead of figuring out what happened, I just went back to stock for my trip. I have the double row on another of my Valks and will look at that one when I get home. My son rode that other Valk to Alaska also.

[Peteg]

My daughter came over and made ravioli from scratch today. That helped me put this all into perspective .

[Skinhead]

I did the double row md on mine before riding to Alaska in June. When I was checking and changing the rear brake pads just two weeks ago, I noticed the left bearing was trashed. I went back with the stock setup. I do change the bearings now every year. The double mod had about 15,000 miles on it.

To my knowledge, you are the first person I've heard of that has had o double row bearing fail on the left side. 

[Valker]

To my knowledge, you are the first person I've heard of that has had o double row bearing fail on the left side. 

Yeah, me too.

[Peteg]

Valker, thanks for driving me absolutely freaking crazy. You really didn’t do too much, as I was almost there without any help. I’m just making this post in case anyone can help me understand these rear bearings - Probably a lot more difficult than what was accomplished in the first sentence above.
You seem to be very in touch with your bike, but the obvious question is riding to Alaska with a make shift dust seal, do you see any evidence of dust seal / bearing seal violation? It’s only one bearing, maybe Chinese manufacturing infant mortality?
Now my long take on why I’m running double row on the left side: It seems like there is good rider experience indicating left side double row is the way to go, but that’s not enough for me, as I always need to drive myself crazy trying to understand. When I asked myself why Honda put 3 single row bearings on the bike, I speculated as follows:  All bearings run the same speed and the rear bearings are more heavily loaded than the front. Torque transmitted by a spline as opposed to a sprocket should add no eccentric bearing load.  So my guess is the reason the right side rear bearing is most heavily loaded is it’s closer to rear wheel center than the left, thus it takes more of the vertical load than the left. I still feel it’s reasonable to assume that when a single row bearing is on the left rear it’s the bearing with the lowest service factor on the bike. Certainly a double row should have a higher service factor than a single row unless there’s really something magic going on????
I guess Paul Simon said still crazy after all these years.

So if anyone read my quote above and thought I might be on to something, you may be as crazy as I am. It turns out, I was absolutely wrong when I guessed why Honda put 3 sized for front axle single bearings on the bike and one double row on the pumpkin side of the rear wheel. I'm changing the tires on my VTX1300 and it's the same way, except the pumpkin is on the left side as is the one big bearing. I also measured the rear bearing distances from center of wheel and the bearings are the same distance from the center. So I guess we get a big bearing on the pumpkin side for torque???? Makes no sense to me. I guess that's why I don't design motorcycles.