Incredibly hard shifts and hard handle

[Gearhead24]

Hello,

It’s just one thing after another with this bike. Just took care of electrical and carb issues and now my clutch is saying goodbye. Rode the bike to and from work today (15 miles give or take) and in the morning I noticed the clutch handle refused to go in all the way sometimes. I had gauntlets on so I couldn’t feel much of it. On my way home I rode without gloves and definitely felt it again. Randomly the clutch handle will be impossible to pull completely in, sometimes it stops halfway sometimes it’s just a bit before the grip. Shifting also became an issue on the way home, when the handle would act up the shifter became hard as a rock. Upshifting wasn’t as bad but if I wanted to downshift I had to stomp on it hard. Starting off in first also is very rigid, the rpm goes way down no matter how much throttle I give it and the whole bike shudders. When I was at a stop in first with the clutch pulled in as best I could I was sitting there not moving and felt a bump and a slight push almost like I was just barely rear ended. I looked back and there was nothing.
I read another thread that was discussing failed clutch rivets which could be the cause of all of this. I got the bike home so it’s safe, although my garage space just got commandeered. Hoping this doesn’t also have transmission issues

[sandy]

If you have a 97 or 98, it is probably the rivets in the clutch. By 99 Honda changed suppliers to correct the issue.

[Gearhead24]

So I need a new clutch pack? Mine is a 98, but is there a way I can retrofit a 99+ system so I do not need to worry about rivets anymore or am I stuck with rivets in my clutch? Still haven't put the bike under for the front end overhaul so if I need to do an overhaul of the clutch system I might as well do it all at once and PC the frame while I'm at it. Also is there any risk of damage to the final drive and rear hub? I know parts for that are pricey and few/far.
EDIT: I have yet to look into which brand of clutch are the best, so as of 2024 what brands do other valkyrie riders like to use? I'm fairly certain the pack in mine is factory original. Not going to go with genuine OEM, just priced out all the discs on their parts finder and $425 before tax and shipping is insane for just the discs.

[Hook#3287]

Go to the main page and do a search for"clutch rivets" and you'll get 7-8 pages of posts for your reading enjoyment.


PLATE B, CLUTCH
22322-MZ0-000

This is probably your issue and most likely you will not need to replace all plates.

I would rule out all the easy first, like grip/lever bushings, fluid levels, master and slave cylinders, but sounds like classic rivet failure.


It's a job that any one with basic mech skills can do.

[Gearhead24]

Thanks for that, just getting the damper plate and the discs on either side is a lot less than replacing the whole pack. I’m not worried about the level of work, just irritated that I fixed one issue and got it back on the road just for the clutch to take a vacation that same day. I think it happened while the other issue was going on. I’d have no throttle response and every time I clutched in to downshift the motor would die. Release clutch and it came back on. I know that’s not good to do and I was not doing it on purpose. Just trying to deal with getting to the shoulder

[h13man]

Before doing anything major as for clutch replacement, I would totally clean the MC and all down line connections. Sounds like debris in the MC plugging the port. Sounds like the bike was stored badly. On a note I've never lost a clutch in 50+yrs./18 bikes. Had to shim the springs once on a 74' XL250.

[HayHauler]

I replaced 2 in 187k miles.  The first one was due to the rivets coming apart. (1999 Interstate).  I replaced all of the discs just to be sure.

The 2nd one was my fault.  I was too aggressive compressing the clutch spring while assembling the clutch pack and cracked the spring.  I didn't find this out until about 6 months later when the clutch started pulsating when engaging.  Then it started to slip.  This time around, I only replaced the spring when I tore it down and found the spring cracked and coming apart.

My $.01875.

Hay 
Jimmyt

[Dirty Dave]

Looking at the parts fiche for the last year (2003) of the Valkyrie, it still shows the same old damper plate.

The new unit that I bought looks identical to the 97 part that failed.


 

[HayHauler]

I think they remanufactured that part, but kept the same part number.  The one I replaced in my 1999 IS didn't fail again in 120k miles.

Hay 
Jimmyt

[Gearhead24]

It has been a while but I'm getting back around to the valk. While the bike has been down I realized my truck needed more maintenance so I've been focused there.
I haven't ordered any parts for my clutch yet. Been looking through a few different threads about Barnett kits and the possibility of eliminating the damper disc. Still undecided but if eliminating the damper works I would like to do that, I don't like the idea of brass rivets being in my clutch at all.
I could simply replace the damper and the discs on either side all with OEM and call it a day for close to $200 or I could replace the entire pack with a Barnett kit and eliminate the damper for roughly the same cost.
Just wanted to feel that possibility out and see what the end result will be. Thanks

[rug_burn]

     I did that job about 10 years ago... I pulled the swingarm and rear wheel off, but I been told that the swingarm at leaset could stay on.  I just replaced the damper.   
    Another thing I did to forestall having to do the same job over again in another 160,000 miles was to get better at matching the engine speed to the clutch speed.  Shifting without using the clutch.    If you can shift smoothly like this, it takes a big load off those rivets, and you will shift even more smoothly using just a little clutch.   
   At this stage of my and the bike's life, I just don't want to break or wear out anything on it (sad).

[Gearhead24]

It wasn't much cheaper but I was able to find the parts on Amazon all labeled OEM coming from their "PartsFish". I also needed to replace the steering stem bearings/races so those combined with the damper and the two frictions comes out to $215 with shipping.
As I've been riding this bike I have only had a smooth shift into or out of second happen a handful of times. Each time I get that smooth shift I try to do whatever I can to recreate it and it never happens, almost like it'll be something different each time. When I get up to a light and I want to go from second to first it grinds on full clutch and stays in neutral, when I'm in first and want to go up it'll grind for a second then fall in unless I take my foot off too fast then I'm in neutral. I do have a knockoff shift buddy installed, not quite ready to drop $70 for a proper one.

[rug_burn]

That sounds like either: 
1.  the whole clutchpack isn't together right,
2.  it's the damper rivet problem, which you already fixed,
3.  or master cylinder has air in it, and it's not pushing out all the way...
4.  Some type of issue with jamming of the levers and pushrod

I know, you already did all these (bummer). I'd double check all these starting with the easiest, which is the levers and bleeding the clutch again.

FWIW-
 
Good luck

[SCain]

I do have a knockoff shift buddy installed, not quite ready to drop $70 for a proper one.

Just a comment on the knockoff / copy of my Shifter Buddy, the dimensions on the Chinese Copy sold on eBay are off, this causes the shifter shafts to be slightly out of alignment, they may work for a while but could cause excessive wear to internal components of the shift forks and drum.
Hope you get this resolved

Steve

[Gearhead24]

I'm sure the knockoff isn't sitting the shaft correctly since I hardly noticed a difference in the shift feel, but I cannot be doing any testing and practicing for a while. I still haven't done the clutch nor have I done the forks or brakes. I have kits for the forks and for the calipers but my steering stem bearings were caked so I'm waiting on new ones, and waiting on powder coat to come back in stock. Going to PC my whole front end along with the tank and fenders.
PO did wreck the bike at one point, there are gouges in the forks, tank, and engine guards which is why I'm doing PC. Maybe that wreck messed up second gear, I'm not sure but as far as I know second still works it's just a pain to get into it.

[Hook#3287]

I'm sure the knockoff isn't sitting the shaft correctly since I hardly noticed a difference in the shift feel, but I cannot be doing any testing and practicing for a while. I still haven't done the clutch nor have I done the forks or brakes. I have kits for the forks and for the calipers but my steering stem bearings were caked so I'm waiting on new ones, and waiting on powder coat to come back in stock. Going to PC my whole front end along with the tank and fenders.
PO did wreck the bike at one point, there are gouges in the forks, tank, and engine guards which is why I'm doing PC. Maybe that wreck messed up second gear, I'm not sure but as far as I know second still works it's just a pain to get into it.

Your early claim of the bike sifting into second smoothly at times makes me feel the clutch is your issue and not damage from a drop.

If a shift fork or gear was damaged, It would probably be every time.

Then again maybe not, but my money is on the clutch.

[Gearhead24]

Got the clutch cover opened yesterday and found 2 pieces of rivets in the bottom of the case. Pulled the clutch pack and noticed the plates in the damper had slid around, when I took the pack apart I found there was only 1 rivet holding the damper plate together so I could pivot both sides of the plate. Most of the friction plates look good only two of them were low on material, however almost all of the steel discs have scorch marks on the edges. Some are worse than others but I've never seen the steels get burned up.
Are the steels still usable even though they're scorched? I placed them on a table and none appear to be warped. I don't mind having to replace those as well, just means I got to wait for more shipping.

[HayHauler]

Got the clutch cover opened yesterday and found 2 pieces of rivets in the bottom of the case. Pulled the clutch pack and noticed the plates in the damper had slid around, when I took the pack apart I found there was only 1 rivet holding the damper plate together so I could pivot both sides of the plate. Most of the friction plates look good only two of them were low on material, however almost all of the steel discs have scorch marks on the edges. Some are worse than others but I've never seen the steels get burned up.
Are the steels still usable even though they're scorched? I placed them on a table and none appear to be warped. I don't mind having to replace those as well, just means I got to wait for more shipping.

This is what the manual says about the clutch discs and the plates.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Check the clutch discs for signs of scoring or discoloration.
Measure the clutch disc thickness.
SERVICE LIMIT: 3.5 mm (0.14 in)
NOTE
Replace the clutch discs and plates as a set.
Check the plates for discoloration.
Check the plate warpage on a surface plate using a feeler
gauge.
SERVICE LIMIT: 0.30 mm (.012 In)
Check the clutch damper plate wave spring for damage.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
The manual doesn't mention replacing the plates due to discoloration, but I think it implies that.
When I replaced mine due the the rivet issue, I replaced them all, because I didn't want to do that job twice.  I now have a spare clutch cage to stack the clutch pack into before loading it into the bike.  This makes it really easy to get the plates in line.
(EDIT)
The manual doesn't give the thickness of the plates, only the discs with the clutch material on them.  I guess that the plates don't wear?
Anyway, I just wanted to add that tidbit.
(/EDIT)

Hay  
Jimmyt

[Hook#3287]

Got the clutch cover opened yesterday and found 2 pieces of rivets in the bottom of the case. Pulled the clutch pack and noticed the plates in the damper had slid around, when I took the pack apart I found there was only 1 rivet holding the damper plate together so I could pivot both sides of the plate. Most of the friction plates look good only two of them were low on material, however almost all of the steel discs have scorch marks on the edges. Some are worse than others but I've never seen the steels get burned up.
Are the steels still usable even though they're scorched? I placed them on a table and none appear to be warped. I don't mind having to replace those as well, just means I got to wait for more shipping.

This is what the manual says about the clutch discs and the plates.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Check the clutch discs for signs of scoring or discoloration.
Measure the clutch disc thickness.
SERVICE LIMIT: 3.5 mm (0.14 in)
NOTE
Replace the clutch discs and plates as a set.
Check the plates for discoloration.
Check the plate warpage on a surface plate using a feeler
gauge.
SERVICE LIMIT: 0.30 mm (.012 In)
Check the clutch damper plate wave spring for damage.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
The manual doesn't mention replacing the plates due to discoloration, but I think it implies that.
When I replaced mine due the the rivet issue, I replaced them all, because I didn't want to do that job twice.  I now have a spare clutch cage to stack the clutch pack into before loading it into the bike.  This makes it really easy to get the plates in line.
(EDIT)
The manual doesn't give the thickness of the plates, only the discs with the clutch material on them.  I guess that the plates don't wear?
Anyway, I just wanted to add that tidbit.
(/EDIT)

Hay  
Jimmyt

I was thinking the reason the manual states checking the plates is to help identify where to check the disks.

I also replaced all of the plates and disks in the one bike that had the rivet meltdown, only because I didn't know it might not have been necessary.

But I'd probably do the same now.