Clutch Fails to Disengage (2003 Valkyrie Standard 89,000 miles)

[carolinarider09]

Took my bike out for a short ride today and, for the first time, I had a problem changing gears. 

Turns out the clutch was not being allowed to disengage.  Upon further checking, the fluid reservoir was almost empty. 

I had not noticed any leaks but.... she does not get ridden as much as she use to.

Anyway, pulled the cover and the reservoir and refilled the reservoir and the clutch began to work, after pulling and releasing th clutch lever several times. 

But, it appears that there might be a leak at the point where the clutch lever engages what I will call the "piston". 

Brake reservoir appears to be full and has no issues.

My question is, does anyone have any documents or listings of the things I need to do to rebuild that part of the clutch system?

I just checked and it appears I can purchase the MASTER CYLINDER SUB-ASSY., CLUTCH (NISSIN)
22890-MZ0-A41, for less than $100 which would be fine.

That would be a simple fix it would seem.   Just buy and build and replace.

Any thoughts would be appreciate. 

Thanks.

[HayHauler]

That is what I did.  I bought both clutch and brake reservoirs so they would match.  They were "weathered" to where the new clutch would look different.
I previously ordered PISTON SET, CLUTCH MASTER CYLINDER 22886-MB4-305, but the tiny pressure release hole was rusted shut on the front brake master cylinder, so I bought both and replaced them.  Nice and shiny.

Hay 
Jimmyt

[Timbo1]

Replacing the sub assy would probably fix your problem but you could also just rebuild it with a piston kit, item #3 in the diagram.

https://www.partzilla.com/catalog/honda/motorcycle/1998/gl1500c-a-valkyrie/clutch-master-cylinder


Make sure the master cylinder isn't dripping on any painted surfaces as the brake fluid does bad things to paint.

[carolinarider09]

Thanks for the feedback.  Will probably do both.  Never hurts to prepare. 

Other question (will post a photo later) I have the handle bars at such an angel that the reservoirs are at an angle such that I cannot easily fill them.  I guess I should raise the handle bars a little. 

As I said picture to follow.

[HayHauler]

That is what I did.  Also, turned the bars all the way to one side to level the reservoir as much as possible.

Hay 
Jimmyt

[carolinarider09]

I third to make sure the images showed the actual tilt of the reservoirs. 

Image of clutch reservoir



Image of brake reservoir

[Jess from VA]

That is what I did.  Also, turned the bars all the way to one side to level the reservoir as much as possible.

Hay 
Jimmyt

Turn the bars, and shim the kickstand, and you'll get level.  One side at a time.

[da prez]

  I picked up some large baking pans that I put towels or absorbent pads in. Use under the cylinders to catch drips.  They are also great for carb work.

                                                 da prez

[Jess from VA]

I have the same baking pans for the same/similar work.   

I didn't buy them new, they got promoted to the work shed after they got so crummy and corroded from the oven over the years (and beyond scrubbing), I didn't want food in them anymore. 

They are great for all small part projects.  So stuff doesn't roll away never to be found again. 

[carolinarider09]

I think I have some of those baking pans.  Forgot all about them.  Well ensure that I don't let the paint get wet.

Parts have been shipped.  Will be some time (week or so) before I actually start work and install the new stuff.  Clutch, first, then the brake.

[Chrisj CMA]

Shimming the kickstand. You mean asking it to fall over. Just loosen the mounting bolts a bit and move the reservoir to level, Boom

[Jess from VA]

Shimming the kickstand. You mean asking it to fall over. Just loosen the mounting bolts a bit and move the reservoir to level, Boom

Jeff, my bikes lean quite a bit on the stand and I have always been able to shim the stand a little bit with no trouble at all (never close to level).  But I get what you're saying.  If you shim too much, then turn the bars, it could go over.  

With 2 interstates in a 10 x 12 shed, it's hard to get to anything else in there (like all my tools).  So I lean one bike on the other, bag guards to bag guards (gently).  But the leaned bike always has the kickstand out, and a block under it.  There's not enough room in there for one to go over, but one could get scraped up some.

Of course interstates can't really ever go all the way over (short of a full tumble at speed);  with the rear guard under the bag mounts, they go about 40 degrees and come to a stop on front and rear guards together.  I've never just dropped one, but have had one get away from me pushing it around standing beside it and had to let it down on the guards.  For years now I never push them around from the side, I always get on and do it from the seat (short legs and all).  

[0leman]

When I have bled the brakes/clutch, I have lifted the bike up enough to put jackstands under the crash bars.  That way I can turn the handlebars left or right, then loosen/turn the reservoirs so they are nearly level with ground.  Seem the logical way to do this.

[Jess from VA]

When I have bled the brakes/clutch, I have lifted the bike up enough to put jackstands under the crash bars.  That way I can turn the handlebars left or right, then loosen/turn the reservoirs so they are nearly level with ground.  Seem the logical way to do this.

I've done that too.  And the bike won't be falling over on jack stands. 

[carolinarider09]

Parts were delivered last night.  Now for the work.  Will probably wait a little while to let it warm up a little. 

Have not used the "heater" in the garage for some time.  It's propane so, might need some tanks.   maybe it will be 60 next week   

[Jess from VA]

I have one of those single burner propane heaters too Bill.

I haven't used it in years. 

I have a full and partial tank of propane out in the shed with it, but no idea if it stays good for years.

I will happily not use it again.  That thing is a fire hazard and I keep about 30 gallons of pure non ethanol gas on hand (since it's 100mi round trip to get it).  I already blew myself up with black gunpowder once and learned my lesson. 

My morning walk was in the low 20s and my feet and hands didn't enjoy that one bit.

I threw my ice skates away a long time ago. 

[rug_burn]

You could find that the actual problem is the clutch pack itself, and around that mileage is when it hapens.   
    These brass rivets in the first couple of plates hold this one kind of shock-absorbing combo unit together, and in mine, they  sheared off and got stuck at an agle in the holes, and wedged the plates apart.    The result was that the clutch would not totally disengage.
    That takes a bit of wrenching to fix, about a day, but I only had to replace the combo plate. 
   Good luck.

[carolinarider09]

You could find that the actual problem is the clutch pack itself, and around that mileage is when it hapens.   
    These brass rivets in the first couple of plates hold this one kind of shock-absorbing combo unit together, and in mine, they  sheared off and got stuck at an agle in the holes, and wedged the plates apart.    The result was that the clutch would not totally disengage.
    That takes a bit of wrenching to fix, about a day, but I only had to replace the combo plate. 
   Good luck.

Thanks for the information. 

And Jess, I had no issues getting the propane heater to work will add a picture later. 

Now,  I have the clutch reservoir reassembled.  I think I got the parts right but now I need to bleed the clutch master cylinder (??). 

So here is a picture of where I think I need to connect the bleed hose. 



I will be using a pump so I won't have to use the handled.  Plan is to hook up the pump, open the "valve" a little and then pump to see if I can get some flow.

Will use the flow out to verify and keep and eye on the reservoir to verify no air gets in.

Any other comments would be appreciated. 

Thanks. 

[Chrisj CMA]

That us the clutch bleed tube

[carolinarider09]

Thanks

And I tried to do the bleed with my "vacuum pump" and canister arrangement and it worked on the first pull but after that, nothing.

So, I did it the old fashioned way.  Put the wrench on the valve, grabbed the clutch handle, pulled in until I felt some resistance, opened the value, pulled the lever all the way "in" and then closed the valve and released the lever.

Did not have much air come out so......

Did verify it worked at rest in the garage and it allowed me to shift gears with the engine running.  So....  next is a road trial. 

Next is the brake master cylinder.  Fun, fun, fun.

Actually the best part is the fact that "I did it"....

[Joe333x]

Thanks

And I tried to do the bleed with my "vacuum pump" and canister arrangement and it worked on the first pull but after that, nothing.

So, I did it the old fashioned way.  Put the wrench on the valve, grabbed the clutch handle, pulled in until I felt some resistance, opened the value, pulled the lever all the way "in" and then closed the valve and released the lever.

Did not have much air come out so......

Did verify it worked at rest in the garage and it allowed me to shift gears with the engine running.  So....  next is a road trial. 

Next is the brake master cylinder.  Fun, fun, fun.

Actually the best part is the fact that "I did it"....

Not sure if it's relevant to your issue but I had a leak with no visible fluid and it was because it was leaking and getting gunked up in the slave cylinder. It was really gross when I took it out and all the rubber was shot. I rebuilt mine but you can buy a whole new one and just replace it.

[carolinarider09]

Not sure if it's relevant to your issue but I had a leak with no visible fluid and it was because it was leaking and getting gunked up in the slave cylinder. It was really gross when I took it out and all the rubber was shot. I rebuilt mine but you can buy a whole new one and just replace it.

Thank for the information.  I did not notice any thing like that but... I have not really looked.  I will be cleaning the engine area over the winter as I work on the maser cylinder replacements. 

[Timbo1]

Thanks

And I tried to do the bleed with my "vacuum pump" and canister arrangement and it worked on the first pull but after that, nothing.

So, I did it the old fashioned way.  Put the wrench on the valve, grabbed the clutch handle, pulled in until I felt some resistance, opened the value, pulled the lever all the way "in" and then closed the valve and released the lever.

Did not have much air come out so......

Did verify it worked at rest in the garage and it allowed me to shift gears with the engine running.  So....  next is a road trial. 

Next is the brake master cylinder.  Fun, fun, fun.

Actually the best part is the fact that "I did it"....

Glad you got it fixed.

Not sure I'm following you that it only worked on the first pull with the vacuum canister.  The suction on the bleeder shouldn't affect the bleeding process.

I made a vacuum canister last year using a mason jar to connect to my vacuum pump, added a vacuum gauge to the top.  IMO it's one of the best tools I've put together as I can put 20-30# of vacuum on it, turn off the pump and use it to completely flush the system probably multiple times without touching it again.  Compared to using a mighty vac and pumping it repeatedly, plus it's a quart so has much more capacity for the old fluid than the mighty vac I had.

The process I use with the vacuum canister is the same as I've always used to bleed brakes.  Attach the vacuum canister hose to bleeder and apply vacuum, pump the master cylinder until good pressure then open the bleeder until the lever is collapsed, close the bleeder, check fluid in master cylinder and top off if necessary.  Rinse and repeat.

Its a little different process on bikes with ABS but the vacuum of the line and capture of the old fluid is pretty much the same.

[carolinarider09]

Thanks

And I tried to do the bleed with my "vacuum pump" and canister arrangement and it worked on the first pull but after that, nothing.

So, I did it the old fashioned way.  Put the wrench on the valve, grabbed the clutch handle, pulled in until I felt some resistance, opened the value, pulled the lever all the way "in" and then closed the valve and released the lever.

Did not have much air come out so......

Did verify it worked at rest in the garage and it allowed me to shift gears with the engine running.  So....  next is a road trial. 

Next is the brake master cylinder.  Fun, fun, fun.

Actually the best part is the fact that "I did it"....

Glad you got it fixed.

Not sure I'm following you that it only worked on the first pull with the vacuum canister.  The suction on the bleeder shouldn't affect the bleeding process..

The process I use with the vacuum canister is the same as I've always used to bleed brakes.  Attach the vacuum canister hose to bleeder and apply vacuum, pump the master cylinder until good pressure then open the bleeder until the lever is collapsed, close the bleeder, check fluid in master cylinder and top off if necessary.  Rinse and repeat.

Its a little different process on bikes with ABS but the vacuum of the line and capture of the old fluid is pretty much the same.

It has been a while since I used the vacuum  bleeder thing.  I sort of thought it was suppose to work this way.

You hook the vacuum bleeder hose to the bleeder valve on the "thing" you are bleeding.   That hose goes to a sealed container.  The sealed container has another hose that goes to the vacuum pump.

If you pump the pump handle it will draw a vacuum (as shown by the gauge on the pump).  That means the connection is air tight.  If you then open the bleeder valve, the vacuum will pull fluid and air through the lines removing air from the system.  You have to pump the handle to keep the vacuum up. 

At least that is the way I thought it worked. 

When it warms up I will do the front brakes master cylinder.  The fluid appears to be very "dirty" (well sort of orange in color not clear).

It also appears to have less "parts but....I probably did not order all the little washers and stuff.  Will check that again today. 

Thanks for the feedback.

[Timbo1]

The way you describe it may work but I've never done it that way.  And the way I described it is only the way I do it.  I'm not claiming it to be the right way lol, but it's always worked for me.   Pumping the master cylinder and holding pressure on it while opening the bleeder would both push the fluid / air from the master cylinder and pull it from the bleeder via the vacuum.  

I also thought you were originally talking about a vacuum canister but now I think your talking about a mighty vac or similar if you have to pump the handle to create the vacuum.  I was talking about a vacuum canister I made with a mason jar and attaching it to my HVAC vacuum pump similar to the video below.  The advantage of a canister like this is 1. it's capacity, 2. I can put 20lbs - 30lbs vacuum on the mason jar and turn off the pump until the job is done without needing to pump a handle.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InnDPwkLMQs&ab_channel=HardlyMovingProductions

Either way you got it done and working so that's the important part.

[HayHauler]

On the front brakes, I have tied the brake lever to the bars and left it overnight with the cover loosely covering the reservoir to keep bugs and dust out. This allows the small bubbles to creep up the lines and out through the top. 

I did this when having trouble getting the 2 calipers to bleed well.

Hay 
Jimmyt

[h13man]

I would think the loss fluid might be at the slave cylinder thus leaking into the motor if you don't see any other visible signs of leaks. As for bleeding I use the MC handle as my pump and being careful not run it dry in the process and a clear hose on the slave cylinder nipple to monitor air bubbles. Also you can gravity bleed but I only do that on front brakes. Good time to swap out the clutch MC for the VTX 1800 variant. Much easier pull. Got mine for $35 thru Riley parts on Ebay and it was still "fresh" thus no rebuild. I've been very fortunate with my ride being well taken care of by the original owner.

On a note, I never allow the lever/pedal to bottom out while checking/doing a bleed.

[carolinarider09]

I would think the loss fluid might be at the slave cylinder thus leaking into the motor if you don't see any other visible signs of leaks. As for bleeding I use the MC handle as my pump and being careful not run it dry in the process and a clear hose on the slave cylinder nipple to monitor air bubbles. Also you can gravity bleed but I only do that on front brakes. Good time to swap out the clutch MC for the VTX 1800 variant. Much easier pull. Got mine for $35 thru Riley parts on Ebay and it was still "fresh" thus no rebuild. I've been very fortunate with my ride being well taken care of by the original owner.

On a note, I never allow the lever/pedal to bottom out while checking/doing a bleed.

Thanks for the information.  I sort of got side tracked.

Using the handle as a pump is the way I use to do it.  I got the "vacuum" pump and it seemed to makes things easier (no worries about how I pumped and timing the valve movement).

But the pump failed to work as noted above and I used the old fashion way.

I replaced the front Brake master cylinder yesterday and I have not bleed the system yet.  There is current a firm pressure when I activate the front brakes.  So........  I will bleed them next year.

I took the bike for a ride today and all things functioned as expected and as before the event with the clutch master cylinder.  So..... I am happy tonight.  Will do some more work next year.

Happy New Year to all. 

[h13man]

I have a pump setup I also used on cages but a motorcycle system is so small, I just use the MC like I have for 55 yrs. As for shimming level, I shim the kickstand and use jack stands for insurance.