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Author Topic: This is a heart wrenching story that was in the Toyota Thread  (Read 2545 times)
big turkey
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« on: February 25, 2010, 07:06:37 AM »

Some of you may have missed this one story. That was in the Toyota Thread
Remeber if you are on your bike we would not have a chance against this kind of malfunction.

Any of us would just be gone.

Some people are dead form this one and a innocent man is setting in Prison.

'Toyota Defense' Might Rescue Jailed US ManSTEVE KARNOWSKI, Associated Press Writer
LINO LAKES, Minnesota (AP) ― Ever since his 1996 Toyota Camry shot up an interstate ramp, plowing into the back of an Oldsmobile in a horrific crash that killed three people, Koua Fong Lee insisted he had done everything he could to stop the car.

A jury didn't believe him, and a judge sentenced him to eight years in prison. But now, new revelations of safety problems with Toyotas have Lee pressing to get his case reopened and his freedom restored. Relatives of the victims — who condemned Lee at his sentencing three years ago — now believe he is innocent and are planning to sue Toyota. The prosecutor who sent Lee to prison said he thinks the case merits another look.

"I know 100 percent in my heart that I took my foot off the gas and that I was stepping on the brakes as hard as possible," Lee said in an interview Wednesday at the state prison in Lino Lakes. "When the brakes were looked at and we were told that nothing was wrong with the brakes, I was shocked."

Lee's accident is among a growing number of cases, some long resolved, that are getting new attention since Toyota admitted its problems with sudden acceleration were more extensive than originally believed. Numerous lawsuits involving Toyota accidents have been filed over the recent revelations, and attorneys expect the numbers will climb.

In testimony before Congress, company executives renewed their apologies for underestimating the safety problems but also acknowledged that they still may not have identified all the causes for the sudden acceleration.

The uncertainty could wind up helping Lee and others. Attorneys for both the 32-year-old St. Paul man as well as the victims' families say they're encouraged by the evidence that the problems went beyond models that originally were recalled.

If Lee's car was defective, "We don't want an innocent man sitting in prison," said Phil Carruthers, who prosecuted the case for Ramsey County.

A Toyota spokesman declined to comment on Lee's case.

Lee, a recent Hmong immigrant with only about a year of driving experience, was driving his pregnant wife, 4-year-old daughter, father and brother home from church the afternoon of June 10, 2006, when their Camry zoomed up an Interstate 94 exit ramp in St. Paul. Police said it was traveling between 70 and 90 mph (115 and 145 kph) when it rear-ended a car stopped at a red light.

Javis Trice Adams, 33, and his 10-year-old son, Javis Adams Jr., died at the scene. Adams' 6-year-old niece, Devyn Bolton, was paralyzed from the neck down, and died shortly after Lee was convicted.

At his 2007 trial, Lee testified he was certain he tried to brake. But a city mechanic testified the brakes worked fine, and Carruthers, the prosecutor, argued Lee must have hit the gas by mistake. Lee's attorney at trial, Tracy Eichorn-Hicks, seemed to concede as much, arguing Lee's actions fell short of gross negligence.

Lee's Camry wasn't among those subject to Toyota's recent safety recalls, but Toyota did recall some 1996 Camrys for defective cruise controls that could cause sudden acceleration.

Bob Hilliard, a Texas attorney, is preparing a lawsuit by the victims in the Lee crash. Hilliard said other federal complaints suggest a defect more widespread than recalled cruise controls — something with engine control modules that could extend to other Toyota makes and model years.

Hilliard said he's aware of about 16 potential class-action cases filed around the country on the basis of the automaker's recent revelations. Attorneys for the victims' family declined to make them available, but Hilliard said they feel differently about Lee now. "They seem to have made peace with the fact that he's telling the truth," Hilliard said.

Lee said he's grateful.

"I feel like them believing in me is a gift that I've received from God," he said.

Schafer said he'll file paperwork soon asking to reexamine the wrecked Camry, which still sits at the St. Paul police impoundment lot. All sides expect that request to be granted. Then Schafer would have to persuade the judge that new evidence merits a new trial.


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big turkey
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« Reply #1 on: February 25, 2010, 07:25:17 AM »

Another testimonial froma Doctor.

* Dr. David. W. Smith, an emergency room physician from San Dimas, has yet to receive a satisfactory answer from Toyota about his Lexus GS 300. Smith said he was driving with his cruise control in Central California on Highway 99 last year, not touching the accelerator, when suddenly the vehicle accelerated to 100 mph.

The brakes did not release the cruise control or slow down the vehicle, Smith recalled. Finally, he shifted into neutral and shut off the engine. "I am sure it is the cruise control," he said. "I haven't used it since."


Toyota's response is to press hard on the brakes wiht both feet and that has not worked yet in any case that has been reported.

Some of these cars have 300 Horsepower Plus, you could have the brakes on fire before they would stop a full throttled engine.
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Mikey
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« Reply #2 on: February 25, 2010, 07:35:33 AM »

Wow... it took a doctor to figure out that the car will indeed stop if you put it in neutral and turn the key one spot back.
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big turkey
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« Reply #3 on: February 25, 2010, 07:47:39 AM »

This is braking news from Toyota.


Remove all floor mats from all your toyota automobiles and fashion them into the lastest style foot wear.

Because that's the only safe part of their cars, that can be counted on not to kill you at this point for transportation purposes.

Makes as about as much sense as anything else they have said.

As old Jed Clampett on the Beverly Hillbillies used to say "pityfull".
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big turkey
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« Reply #4 on: February 25, 2010, 07:51:15 AM »

Yaeh Mikey , one woman stated before Congress she had even tried that and the thing would not stop.

The neautral thing I mean.

She even put the thing in reverse and it would not stop.

Something is rotten in Denmark as they used to say.
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R J
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DS-0009 ...... # 173

Des Moines, IA


« Reply #5 on: February 25, 2010, 08:19:42 AM »

Turn the key off is the best medicine, then hit the gearshift........

I've always told all my kids and the wife, if anything like this happens, turn the key off and jab neutral,    if they go to neutral, the steering will still work, manual of course......
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X Ring
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« Reply #6 on: February 25, 2010, 09:15:41 AM »

Fly by wire systems suck in vehicles.  My '03 GMC has it for the gas pedal.  I can't stand it.  You try to gently accelerate out of a corner and the dam thing downshifts and leaps forward.  tickedoff  At least with mechanical linkage you could feather the pedal.  I'm not crazy about computer controls on engines to begin with but they definitely need to leave them only on the sensors.

Marty
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D.Tater
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Jacksonville, FL


« Reply #7 on: February 25, 2010, 09:19:12 AM »

one woman stated before Congress she had even tried that and the thing would not stop.

The neutral thing I mean.

She even put the thing in reverse and it would not stop.

Something is rotten in Denmark as they used to say.
I find that hard to believe, with the car in neutral it will stop... unless we now have defective transmissions, defective brakes.....the cars have a mind of their own.

My wife drives an 07 camry and loves it. She has no concerns with the thing speeding away.
She has been schooled on what to do and has even practiced turning the car off one position and stopping with manual brakes and steering.

I personally think the problem with the later cars is the fly-by-wire throttle system. I heard that as park of the recall they are modifying the gas pedal assmly. and reprogramming the computer. Why would they reprogram unless they suspect this as part of the problem.

As for the older car. Unless the cruise was turned on (i thing you have to manually turn on the cruise to use it), I find it unlikely the cruise activates itself and then caused full speed operation, but it might.

Do we really think that in all the accidents the person had pressed the gas pedal completely to the floor? Hopefully this issue can be duplicated? Cell phone interference, bad ground wire? Computer code issue?

I'm just sad that with all the accidents nobody had the sense to put the car in neutral or turn it off.
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David
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D.Tater
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Jacksonville, FL


« Reply #8 on: February 25, 2010, 09:26:25 AM »

Fly by wire systems suck in vehicles.   At least with mechanical linkage you could feather the pedal.  I'm not crazy about computer controls on engines to begin with but they definitely need to leave them only on the sensors.

Marty
I agree with that. Why did they start this anyway? Cost savings probably.
I have driven many cars with the FBW system and each feels different.
My old (2006) Honda S2000 actually felt like it was normal.
Had a 2004 Sequoia and I never could get used to it, had to press it to far to just get moving.
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David
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MAD6Gun
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New Haven IN


« Reply #9 on: February 25, 2010, 10:38:45 AM »

 I have done a few throttle recalls on the Pontiac Vibes (its a Toyota Matrix). The recall states to remove the  pedal. Messure the distance between the stop and the pedal back. Install the correct shim. Reinstall the pedal and then check the throttle perameters with a scan tool. There is no reprogram that I am aware off. Oh yea we are also told to remove the floor mat and put it the trunk.

 I for one dont believe that woman that said she put it in neutral and it didnt stop.
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Mikey
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« Reply #10 on: February 25, 2010, 10:41:31 AM »

This is starting to sound like one of two things: propaganda, or a bad scary movie...
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big turkey
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« Reply #11 on: February 25, 2010, 11:14:31 AM »

My wife had a 84 Olds Cutlass Brougham and she said on several ocasions the cruise control took over in city traffic and it was not even on.

in the on position.

Brakes did turn it off.

Folks this thing had a carburetor but also was computerized on the ignition side.

Explain that one.

Computers at falult maybe, not a floor mat.
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X Ring
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« Reply #12 on: February 25, 2010, 11:37:03 AM »

My '89 S-15 (the GMC version of the S-10) had problems with the cruise activating itself.  The main switch would be on and all of a sudden the gas pedal would hit the floor.  Scariest times were in parking lots.  I learned to keep the master switch off unless I wanted to use the cruise.  Apparently this has been a problem with cruise controls.  My Dad had the same problem with his truck.  I have no problem believing the people who have had accidents caused by this.  It's scary having both feet on the brake and a racing engine.  I would recommend NOT turning the key off.  You could lock your steering wheel and really lose control.  I can also believe the people who state they tried to shift into neutral and the tranny didn't shift.  If the gas pedal is fbw what keeps the transmission shifter from being fbw also.

Marty
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Skinhead
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J. A. B. O. A.

Troy, MI


« Reply #13 on: February 25, 2010, 01:55:55 PM »

Right or wrong, most of the fly by wire stuff is done for 2 reasons, cost and ease of calibration.  In the case of electronic throttle, many components in the cruise control system can be eliminated and things like throttle progression and Idle speed control can be changed and tailored to different vehicles, by modifying the calibration rather than changing hardware.  You would be shocked at the number of different control modules in a modern vehicle.  If every thing works as designed, great.  When wiring shorts out or opens a circuit, corrosion on or loose terminals, all kinds of things can go wrong. 

I think many folks don't bother to read their owners manual, and therefore may not know the correct way to operate some modern systems.  Of course, they should not be so complicated that you need to research how to operate it.

my buck 2 98.
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Troy, MI
D.Tater
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Jacksonville, FL


« Reply #14 on: February 25, 2010, 02:24:42 PM »

I would recommend NOT turning the key off.  You could lock your steering wheel and really lose control. 
I think in most modern cars the transmission has to be in park to be able to turn the key completely off, thus locking the steering wheel.

Try it next time sitting still in the driveway.

Just thinking, has this happened to any manual transmission cars, the Camry is available in a 5 speed.

Would the driver not think to press in the clutch?

FBW transmission, now thats a thought.

Drove the new Acura TSX and TL, I was told they have electronic steering.

Watch out, a steering failure may cause the car to head to Mexico.  laugh
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David
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« Reply #15 on: February 25, 2010, 02:34:16 PM »

On the bright side (And I still think this whole thing is a vendetta against Toyota and being blown WAY outta proportion) I now have another item I can bring up when someone harasses me about being old school and refusing to drive an automatic...

(It was HARD finding a newer nice car with a manual transmission, but I was persistent and found one, and that ole' clutch is still a mechanical direct way to remove power to the wheels if all else fails...)

Automatics have caught up in most ways, they now rarely lose much, if any power, or MPG, but a manual still:

#1. More Fun
#2. Many potential car jackers or thieves won't know how to drive one Wink
#3. If all else fails, can push in the clutch if the car goes crazy and tries to reach Ramming Speed on you...  Cheesy

(Ironically enough, my current car would BE a Toyota Camry IF Toyota had the V6 available in a manual, but they don't, so my current car is a Nissan Altima V6 w/ 6-speed manual instead, first non-Toyota I've ever bought, and lack of a Camry with a V6 and manual is the only reason...)
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Psychotic Bovine
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« Reply #16 on: February 25, 2010, 02:59:59 PM »

My 08 Accord Coupe has a v6 and 6 speed manual.  People at work ask me why I drive a manual, when an automatic is easier.  If they have to ask, they wouldn't understand.
I do think the Toyota thing is being blown out of proportion.  I don't believe for a minute that putting the car in neutral or turning off the ignition didn't work.
I think that either there was not enough time to do it, or the people froze in panic.  Seeing as how a lot of people drive, I tend to believe the latter....

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fiddle mike
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« Reply #17 on: February 25, 2010, 04:26:53 PM »

Cars and trucks aren't any more of status symbol, for me, than a motorcycle is, so when I'm force to buy one I look for the plainest Jane, the one with the least doo-daddery to fail.
If I had my way I'd be able to buy a new truck that has the same features as a 55 Chevy : crank windows, rowboat transmission and mechanical linked accelerator.  You'd be able to wash the thing out with a garden hose, too.
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Skinhead
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J. A. B. O. A.

Troy, MI


« Reply #18 on: February 25, 2010, 05:57:06 PM »

Cars and trucks aren't any more of status symbol, for me, than a motorcycle is, so when I'm force to buy one I look for the plainest Jane, the one with the least doo-daddery to fail.
If I had my way I'd be able to buy a new truck that has the same features as a 55 Chevy : crank windows, rowboat transmission and mechanical linked accelerator.  You'd be able to wash the thing out with a garden hose, too.

You and my brother-in-law would get along just fine..., he says the same thing.
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Troy, MI
sugerbear
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wentzville mo


« Reply #19 on: February 25, 2010, 06:51:47 PM »

some of the new bikes are fbw. careful how you talk about the fbw, they may hear.

just read where one of the new harleys (don't remember which one) is a fbw. Evil
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fiddle mike
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« Reply #20 on: February 25, 2010, 07:22:14 PM »

some of the new bikes are fbw. careful how you talk about the fbw, they may hear.

just read where one of the new harleys (don't remember which one) is a fbw. Evil


 Grin I thought "fbw" stood for "full blown whore".
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big turkey
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« Reply #21 on: February 25, 2010, 07:26:49 PM »

Harley Electraglide is fly by wire since 2008.

No problems with any I have heard of,

But give me the cables anyday of the week.

Be careful even bikes wtih fuel injection and standard cables can have the butter flies stick if debris gets in the butterflies and that little red switch on the handle bar could come in handy.

Al
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Skinhead
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J. A. B. O. A.

Troy, MI


« Reply #22 on: February 26, 2010, 05:21:58 AM »

some of the new bikes are fbw. careful how you talk about the fbw, they may hear.

just read where one of the new harleys (don't remember which one) is a fbw. Evil


My riding buddy has a '08 road glide that is FBW,  it works well with the cruise control and fuel injection.  Nice bike, great fuel economy, smaller than the valk, slower than the valk.
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Troy, MI
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