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Author Topic: Web site - Ethanol free gas staions across the USA.  (Read 14885 times)
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Maggie Valley, NC


« on: April 03, 2010, 04:21:13 AM »

http://pure-gas.org/
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alph
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Eau Claire, WI.


« Reply #1 on: April 03, 2010, 04:56:02 AM »

i really appreciate that web site.  nothing against farmers that grow ethenal, just get better milage without it.
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Tundra
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2014 Valkyrie 1800

Seminole, Florida


« Reply #2 on: April 03, 2010, 05:05:55 AM »

Good information, Thanks for posting cooldude I took the liberty of re-posting this on the Florida board.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2010, 06:35:55 AM by Tundra » Logged

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LadyDraco
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TISE

Bastian, VA. Some of the best roads in the East


« Reply #3 on: April 03, 2010, 05:21:57 AM »

Thanks Paul... We have 4 of them in our area alone... With in 14 mile radius from the farm  cooldude

To bad the site doesn't show ALL the stations...  But I can now see 1 more to add to our list...
Yee Haw  that makes 5 now in a 25 mile rad..  angel

I guess they must sign up or something..
« Last Edit: April 03, 2010, 06:00:09 AM by LadyDraco » Logged

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Disco
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« Reply #4 on: April 03, 2010, 05:28:23 AM »

Thank you Britman!   cooldude

Re-posting it to the TX Board!
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dosnewfs
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Minnesota


« Reply #5 on: April 03, 2010, 05:36:43 AM »

i really appreciate that web site.  nothing against farmers that grow ethenal, just get better milage without it.

I'm sorry but I have to call bullshit here.  Have you really collected enough data to suggest that you get worse mileage on a 10% ethanol blend?  Really?  I have run various mixtures through a couple of different vehicles (NO not EPA approved)  One of my vehicles, a 200,000 mile Ford Ranger, appeared to actually got better mileage on about a 40% blend.  The increased horsepower let me stay in overdrive more often than with the lower blends.  That engine was small and very tired.

With my 3/4 ton truck I did notice a potentially lower mileage at the higher concentration over about 8000 miles of testing various concentrations.  I also noticed that it was typically cost neutral or even showed a cost savings.  Being the freak that I am I have a big spreadsheet with the data.

One thing that must be considered when changing concentrations is that the first tank of a different concentration will be skewed.  Your vehicle will not be ready for the new concentration and needs to adjust the fuel mixture.  This needs to be done going both directions.  It seems to me the vehicle computer won't adjust to the new mixture quick enough.  On a carbureted engine changing fuel mixtures will cause the engine tuning to be off.  And yes constantly tuning to the mixture would suck.  But I'm going to guess most of our bikes are not tuned to the absolute best mileage mixture anyhow.





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MP
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1997 Std Valkyrie and 2001 red/blk I/S w/sidecar

North Dakota


« Reply #6 on: April 03, 2010, 05:39:50 AM »

Ethanol is about 10% less btu per gallon, so a 10% mixture would yield about a 1% less fuel mileage.

I get between 25 and 40 mpg with my valk.  I defy anyone to be able to tell a 1% difference!

Run what you want, and can get.

MP
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Normandog
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« Reply #7 on: April 03, 2010, 05:45:15 AM »

Thanks Paul. That be a good one.
Now for the dummy question. How do you know if it's ethanol free ? I've been told they have to post it on the pump and I've been told they don't have to.
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LadyDraco
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« Reply #8 on: April 03, 2010, 06:11:43 AM »

Thanks Paul. That be a good one.
Now for the dummy question. How do you know if it's ethanol free ? I've been told they have to post it on the pump and I've been told they don't have to.


Ron...  I do know in VA. They must say that it has Ethanol in the fuel.. Some places  list 10% and some say NOT less then 10% Ethanol  Shocked...
Most stations like to let you know that there fuel is 100% as they know folks will by the fuel there , thus more $$ for them  cooldude
I get way better mileage on 100% fuel... We tested it all last year... On all the Valks ...
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Normandog
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« Reply #9 on: April 03, 2010, 06:17:47 AM »

Thanks Paul. That be a good one.
Now for the dummy question. How do you know if it's ethanol free ? I've been told they have to post it on the pump and I've been told they don't have to.


Ron...  I do know in VA. They must say that it has Ethanol in the fuel.. Some places  list 10% and some say NOT less then 10% Ethanol  Shocked...
Most stations like to let you know that there fuel is 100% as they know folks will by the fuel there , thus more $$ for them  cooldude
I get way better mileage on 100% fuel... We tested it all last year... On all the Valks ...


I'm thinkin NC don't make 'em post it.  Angry I have been lookin everytime I fill up 'cause I know the ethanol reduces fuel mileage but I've yet to find a pump that says yay or nay. Makes me think I haven't found one that does not have ethanol. Like you said, the station should be glad to advertise that they dont have ethanol. Thanks Tracy.
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X Ring
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VRCC #27389, VRCCDS #204

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« Reply #10 on: April 03, 2010, 06:18:18 AM »

MP, I don't know where you got your figures but Sandman got approximately 32 mpg on ethanol.  It usually gets 38-40.

Marty
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BonS
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« Reply #11 on: April 03, 2010, 06:44:45 AM »

The BTU content varies but average numbers are 125,000 BTU's for gasoline and ~80,000 for ethanol. For E10 this is a 3.7% reduction in BTU's. This translates to about a 1.3 mpg loss if you usually get 35 mpg. Water absorption and swelling or softening of components used in fuel circuit elastomers are other issues.
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Jess Tolbirt
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White Bluff, Tn.


« Reply #12 on: April 03, 2010, 06:53:39 AM »

plus do you know what ethonol will do to the rubber seals and o rings in your carbs?
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dosnewfs
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Minnesota


« Reply #13 on: April 03, 2010, 06:54:23 AM »

Water absorbtion:  The reason people put heat into their gas.  to get the water off the bottom of the tank and out instead of having it freeze.  It keeps any water mixed in solution with the gas instead of it hitting your engine in one slug.

More BTU's:  If more BTU's is always better mileage why don't you run diesel fuel or #6 heating oil in your engine?  

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NITRO
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Eau Claire, WI


« Reply #14 on: April 03, 2010, 06:55:18 AM »

There certainly IS a difference in mpg with ethanol. Vehicles that can burn E85 (85% ethanol) get significantly less mpg than on pure gasoline. There is a cut off at which it makes no sense to buy E85 (price is less than gasoline, but the loss in mpg does not outweigh the savings).

There are also those who argue that motors designed pre-ethanol are not able to handle the more corrosive qualities of the corn fuel. I don't know if this is true, but it's something that is argued often.
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John Schmidt
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De Pere, WI (Green Bay)


« Reply #15 on: April 03, 2010, 07:15:34 AM »

All I know is--with the 10% mixture on a couple trips to my daughter in Louisiana it really showed it's colors. And, pulling the bike on a trailer twice to Columbus, OH....same trouble. I have a 2008 Toyota Highlander and driving to Louisiana running near 75mph with the a/c on and ethanol in the tank, I was getting 24.5mpg pretty steady, figure +/- a tenth or two. That's running with regular, not high test. When I found a station with no ethanol, I filled up...again, nothing but regular. It took about 100 miles, but with the engine monitor screen up I could see a gradual increase in mpg. I was still running at the same speed, a/c on, etc., still flat terrain same as before. After about 150-175 miles, the mpg was in the high 26-mid 27 mpg range, and it stayed there for the remainder of the trip. On the way home, my last tank was in Florida with the 10%, and within 50 miles the mpg was back down to 23.5-24.5. 

On trips to Ohio pulling the bike, same thing, and was especially noticeable going through the hilly areas of the Smokies and points north. Running the same speed most of the time, with REAL gas I would average 2-3mpg higher. If I had to use the E-blend, I noticed the mpg go down and strangely enough...the car often shifted to a lower gear on a long pull where it hadn't done so in the past.

At home and just running around the area, I buy more fuel than before...whether the two cars or the bike. Even my wife, who is not aware of such things, commented her Lexus "sure seems to use more gas" than it used to. Driving habits are unchanged, destinations unchanged, vehicles unchanged, gas formula is changed. Is the ethanol the culprit? It would appear so.
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Hoser
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child of the sixties VRCC 17899

Auburn, Kansas


« Reply #16 on: April 03, 2010, 07:24:18 AM »

Most stations in Kansas offer both, I have seen some that have only 100% dino, few and far between.  I have seen none with ethanol only.  I use whichever one is cheepest, gas up at 150 miles on everything I use. Seldom go on reserve.   cooldude hoser  

I might add that 10% ethanol is the maximum safe level for most gasoline engines, E85 is to be used only in flex fuel vehicles.  That is the one that hurts mileage the most.  E10 is 89 octane as compared to 85 or 87 for 100% regular.  The added bonus is any water in the fuel stays mixed and is burnt by the engine instead of collecting in the bottom of the tank.  Very important in cold climates, where fuel lines have been known to freeze and shut you down.  Fuel line antifreeze is just alcohol in a small can, not necessay if you run a tank of E10 through once in a while.  Be calm, friends, it's all good as long as nobody gets hurt!   cooldude Grin hoser
« Last Edit: April 03, 2010, 10:08:28 AM by Hoser » Logged

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Michael K (Az.)
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Glendale, AZ


« Reply #17 on: April 03, 2010, 07:54:55 AM »

Hmmm, nothing posted for Arizona yet. Guess I should start me own research project!
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BonS
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« Reply #18 on: April 03, 2010, 07:58:46 AM »

More BTU's:  If more BTU's is always better mileage why don't you run diesel fuel or #6 heating oil in your engine?  
Basically, you're right. BTU's aren't everything. Our gasoline engine wasn't designed to produce the high compression ratios or temperatures to allow us to efficiently use the BTU's contained in diesel or heating oil fuels. Actually, the same goes for ethanol. So this could account for the increased loss in mpg reported by some when using ethanol laced gasoline. BTU's alone may not capture the entire reason for reduced performance.

An optimal ethanol burning engine burns its fuel at higher temperature and pressure.

« Last Edit: April 03, 2010, 08:00:17 AM by BonS » Logged

stormrider
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Kinsey, AL


« Reply #19 on: April 03, 2010, 11:24:37 AM »

i really appreciate that web site.  nothing against farmers that grow ethenal, just get better milage without it.

I'm sorry but I have to call bullshit here.  Have you really collected enough data to suggest that you get worse mileage on a 10% ethanol blend?  Really?  I have run various mixtures through a couple of different vehicles (NO not EPA approved)  One of my vehicles, a 200,000 mile Ford Ranger, appeared to actually got better mileage on about a 40% blend.  The increased horsepower let me stay in overdrive more often than with the lower blends.  That engine was small and very tired.

With my 3/4 ton truck I did notice a potentially lower mileage at the higher concentration over about 8000 miles of testing various concentrations.  I also noticed that it was typically cost neutral or even showed a cost savings.  Being the freak that I am I have a big spreadsheet with the data.

One thing that must be considered when changing concentrations is that the first tank of a different concentration will be skewed.  Your vehicle will not be ready for the new concentration and needs to adjust the fuel mixture.  This needs to be done going both directions.  It seems to me the vehicle computer won't adjust to the new mixture quick enough.  On a carbureted engine changing fuel mixtures will cause the engine tuning to be off.  And yes constantly tuning to the mixture would suck.  But I'm going to guess most of our bikes are not tuned to the absolute best mileage mixture anyhow.







Call it what you want. You can run what you want but I shop around for non-ethenol fuel. In the Headland, Dothan area, all the BP stations are gas only, no ethenol. The BP's in Jackson County Florida the same. Course the same gas here is 20cent a gallon cheaper here than across the border.
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Valker
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« Reply #20 on: April 03, 2010, 11:40:33 AM »

I have tested ethanol % for a LOT of miles on my Valk. My fuel mileage goes down by the exact % of ethanol in the fuel. If it is 10% ethanol, it drops by 10%, 15%=15%, etc.
This has held true for the past 80K miles. I have no scientific experiments proving this, just my personal experience.
This is even more pronounced in my BMW car. It hates gas with ethanol.
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stormrider
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Kinsey, AL


« Reply #21 on: April 03, 2010, 11:55:04 AM »

Thanks Paul, just added 5 stations I know of. Know where more are but don't have names or addresses.
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98valk
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South Jersey


« Reply #22 on: April 03, 2010, 12:45:41 PM »

thank the enviro wackos for increasing the ozone levels
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...1214101408.htm

They found that at warm temperatures, from freezing up to 41 degrees Celsius (give F conversion), in bright sunlight, E85 raised the concentration of ozone in the air by up to 7 parts per billion more than produced by gasoline. At cold temperatures, from freezing down to minus 37 degrees Celsius, they found E85 raised ozone concentrations by up to 39 parts per billion more than gasoline.

and oil is not re-newable? peak oil?, high fuel prices?, nothing more than politics and for for control
http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=38645
or just do a google search

gasoline is a much, much more efficient fuel due to its higher btu content compared to any alcohol fuel. The epa and their catalytic converters make every vehicle waste approx 10+ mpg on the hwy.

suggested read
http://www.lawfulpath.com/ref/greening.shtml
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Farther
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Quimper Peninsula, WA


« Reply #23 on: April 03, 2010, 01:39:23 PM »

I checked some of the listing and it doesn't make sense that a name brand dealer would carry gasoline instead of gasohol in an otherwise remote area.  Where do they get it?  They would have to pay a premium to haul their special loads of gasoline instead of the more common gasohol.  What regional facilities are making this stuff and what pipelines are carrying it.  I was my understanding that oxygenated fuels were the law of the land.
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..
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Maggie Valley, NC


« Reply #24 on: April 03, 2010, 02:36:28 PM »

I checked some of the listing and it doesn't make sense that a name brand dealer would carry gasoline instead of gasohol in an otherwise remote area.  Where do they get it?  They would have to pay a premium to haul their special loads of gasoline instead of the more common gasohol.  What regional facilities are making this stuff and what pipelines are carrying it.  I was my understanding that oxygenated fuels were the law of the land.

I dunno. Try calling them????
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BonS
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Blue Springs, MO


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« Reply #25 on: April 03, 2010, 03:51:15 PM »

Test kits are available to reveal ethanol % and water contamination.
Such as this:http://www.fueltestkit.com/. About $32 for the multiple use kit.
Doesn't make sense while traveling but might be practical for local stations.
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stormrider
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Kinsey, AL


« Reply #26 on: April 03, 2010, 07:28:00 PM »

I checked some of the listing and it doesn't make sense that a name brand dealer would carry gasoline instead of gasohol in an otherwise remote area.  Where do they get it?  They would have to pay a premium to haul their special loads of gasoline instead of the more common gasohol.  What regional facilities are making this stuff and what pipelines are carrying it.  I was my understanding that oxygenated fuels were the law of the land.

Plain old gas is the same price as that over-rated gasahol that is prevalent around here. Found another gas only station, Stop & Go, here in Dothan. Must be something to it if the large sign out front displays this proudly. Somebody else must not believe the lies cause I can assure you they didn't put it up just for me.
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BonS
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« Reply #27 on: April 03, 2010, 09:49:18 PM »

You're lucky to be in a state that requires labeling. Sadly, Missouri doesn't require any labeling for E10.
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fudgie
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« Reply #28 on: April 04, 2010, 05:56:38 AM »

Love the E-10 that comes in 89 octane. I get it everytime I cross the Mississippi R headed west. She runs like a raped ape with it. No effect on milage, imho. Home I get 32 mpg, pumps say 'may contain 10%', going west I get 30-31 mpg. Loaded, 2 up, 75-80 mph. Love it I say!

It burns cleaner also. Watched a show where the burnt 100% Eth and it smoked clear. Gas smoked black. To me it was a waste to burn 100% corn eth without sipping on it 1st.  cooldude
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Catskill Mountains, N.Y.


« Reply #29 on: April 05, 2010, 07:27:06 AM »

No good technical data but I do check my mpg after every fillup on all vehicles.  I get an estimated 10% decrease in mpg with 10%. 
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Mickey Runie
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« Reply #30 on: April 05, 2010, 12:36:55 PM »

My Vmax hates alcoholic gas.   It has a noted cough coming off idle when compared to real gas.   I'm not sure how many mpg it suffers, but you can DEFINITELY tell between fillups of alcoholic gas compared to real gas.  It's like a night/day difference with real gas being the winner.

The Fuel injection on the Rune doesn't seem to notice much difference between the two fuels, but I've never performed an mileage analysis on the two. 

I look at it like this:  If Mother Yamaha or Honda intended these bikes to run on corn squeezin's, they would have provided us tethers with each bike purchase, incorporated a means to graze for each one and included instructions on how to tether them out in the corn field.

If a person ingests too much corn alcohol, their motor functions are impaired to a certain degree too.   This can be either a benefit or an improvement, depending on the individual consuming it and how you look at it.  I say keep 100% of the corn sqeezin's for human consumption at the sole descretion of the buyer, and they can mix it with anything of their own choosing.
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RoadKill
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Manhattan KS


« Reply #31 on: April 05, 2010, 02:16:34 PM »

it's all a matter of tuning and to some degree compression ratio and quench. I have run E-85 in every thing I own (except the diesels  Undecided). Each combination is different. the computer controlled systems made ALOT better use of Ethenol because they could richen the mixture and advance timing accordingly. Some not as well as others tho'. The 95 GMC pick up could not advance timing enough but I'm sure If I had bumped initial timing (like a 6 degree trigger wheel would do for your valk) it would have improved greatly in power and miles per gallon. My 2001, Vortech 5.7,16000lb step van did slightly better on BOTH MPG and power because the load on the motor kept signaling the knock sensor that spark knock was present ,thus retarding Ignition timing with 85 to 90 octane dino fuel.With the 114 octane of E-85 the computer poured on the spark timing and power and economy were actually BETTER  and this is NOT a Flex fuel vehicle however it is an rare exception. I saved  60cents to even as much as a whole freakin dollar a gallon at times buy running corn squeeze!

Those saving could have been even more if our federal Govt wasnt so damn smart and protective of us  tickedoff .  The reason it is E-85 and not E-90 or E100 is because then you could drink it. The law says it MUST be de-natured with a min. 15% gasoline. THATS SOME STOOPID BULLSHIT !
Gas and water dont mix but Ethanol and water do! therefor it has to be 100% water free befor it is mixed. Alcohol can easily be distilled to 90 to 95% with the remaining 5 to 10 % being water that will burn in the engine just fine with NO harm. Getting that last % of water out is an EXPENSIVE step that could be eliminated if big brother wasnt so cursed helpfull ! Of course it would cause problems when you mixed gasoline on top of your Ethanol/water mix ,but for fuel at 89cents a gallon again, I would run 2 tanks and use 3dollar a gallon gasoline tank for back up emergency use and keep my engine tuned for Ethanol which is also RE-NEW-ABLE source of fuel !

Your Valk does not know the difference in 10% ethanol or 100% petrol. I just notices that the ethanol absorbs moisture sitting in that underground tank and the water in the GASOLINE is the problem NOT in the Corn leavings!
 
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Valker
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« Reply #32 on: April 05, 2010, 03:17:48 PM »

Here is an article done by Edmunds. Here is the link followed by the text article: http://www.edmunds.com/advice/alternativefuels/articles/120863/article.html

Alternative Fuels

E85 vs. Gasoline Comparison Test
Running on Alcohol Fumes
By Dan Edmunds, Director of Vehicle Testing and Philip Reed, Senior Consumer Advice Editor
Email
Date Posted 06-05-2007
This article compares the costs, performance and efficiency of gasoline and E85. Together with other articles published as part of Edmunds' ongoing coverage of alternative fuels and advanced technology, this piece will help consumers understand the costs and benefits — both financial and environmental — of the choices becoming available to them. See also "Fueling Up With Ethanol" and the Fuel Economy Center.

As our government and U.S. automakers increasingly push us toward an ethanol solution to our energy problems, we decided to pit gasoline against ethanol in a comparison test. What kind of fuel economy will you really get using E85 (85 percent ethanol, 15 percent gasoline)? How far could you go on a tank of E85? And, for motorists tired of high gas prices, will E85 really save money? Is there a significant difference in greenhouse gasses (carbon dioxide) emissions?

In short, should America bet the farm on ethanol? Or are there unforeseen problems with this renewable fuel? We thought a long-distance road trip from San Diego to Las Vegas and back would reveal if this highly touted corn-based fuel is a long shot or a sure bet.

Using a flexible-fuel 2007 Chevrolet Tahoe LT from our long-term fleet, we planned our test around the only currently available source of E85 open to the public in all of California, Pearson Fuels in San Diego. Rather than drive loops around the city, we decided to turn the test into a 667-mile round trip between San Diego and Las Vegas, the next closest E85 source.

How the Test Was Run
The drive from San Diego to Las Vegas (a popular destination for many Southern Californians) was just over 333 miles one-way — within easy reach for the Tahoe running on gasoline with its 24-gallon tank. We would drive there and back on gasoline, then repeat the journey the next day on E85. In each case we'd start and end the test at the same pump to counteract pump shut-off discrepancies.

Our preliminary E85 fuel economy estimates came out 20-25 percent lower than the Tahoe's 15 mpg city/21 mpg highway rating on gasoline. Reaching Las Vegas on a single tank of E85 looked doubtful. To avoid being stranded in the desert, we took along six gallons of E85 in plastic gas cans.

One difficulty was making sure we could test E85 undiluted by any residual gasoline left in the tank. To do this we would have to completely drain our Tahoe's tank before refilling with E85. Mike Lewis, the general manager of Pearson Fuels, arranged a mechanic to help us with that task. Pearson Fuels has a futuristic alternative fuels island that sells not only E85 but also biodiesel (a mixture of petroleum-based diesel and diesel made from soybeans and other plants), compressed natural gas (CNG) and propane.

We took along our "V-box" GPS data-logger, a satellite-based instrument for accurately measuring speed and distance. On a pair of steep grades we would test passing acceleration from 50-70 mph. Later, we would find an unobstructed frontage road and measure 0-60-mph and quarter-mile acceleration.

Run #1: Gasoline
At 6:30 a.m. on Thursday morning, we set out from Pearson Fuels and headed north on Interstate 15 with a full tank of gasoline. Whenever possible we set our cruise control at 75 mph — slightly slower than the flow of traffic. About an hour later, in the Riverside, California, area, we hit heavy commuter traffic and had to reduce our speed and endure a bit of slow-and-go traffic for a few miles.

Besides the performance testing, the drive to Las Vegas was, well, long and boring. Motorists sped past with expressions of eager expectation, heading for the glitz of Las Vegas with its dazzling shows and high-risk casino tables. Using global positioning satellite navigation (GPS) we headed for Flamingo Stop, at 8615 W. Flamingo Road, Las Vegas, a service station that sells both gasoline and E85. We arrived, filled the fuel tank with more gasoline, and ate lunch on the fly as we headed back to San Diego.

Switching to E85
We arrived back in San Diego at 5:15 p.m. and refilled our tank with gasoline to measure how much fuel we had burned. Service Manager Jeanette Ramos was waiting with the mechanic who had stayed late to assist us. In the garage at Pearson Kia, service technician Corey Gonzales put the Tahoe on a lift, disconnected the fuel hose and siphoned the gas out. As the tank got low and the siphon slowed to a trickle, Gonzales tilted the Tahoe to drain even more gas out of the tank, leaving just enough fuel to drive to the E85 pumps a hundred yards away. That night we drove around San Diego with a full tank of E85 to dilute the trace amount of remnant gasoline.

Run #2: E85
The next morning, we topped off with E85 before another 6:30 a.m. departure to Las Vegas. Commuter traffic was a little faster, a phenomenon locally referred to as "Friday Light." This might have tilted the test very slightly in favor of E85 since highway mileage is better than stop-and-go traffic. However, over the course of a 667-mile trip, the difference would average out.

Along the road to Las Vegas we used the V-box to measure 50-70 mph and standing-start acceleration. Since there was a strong tailwind this time, we made an additional acceleration run in the opposite direction to calculate a two-way average and cancel out wind effects.

Approaching Las Vegas, the fuel gauge was getting very low. With the Flamingo Stop pumps in sight, the low-fuel warning light came on. This didn't happen with gasoline, so we knew we'd gotten lower fuel economy. Still, we had made it all the way on one tank of E85. Had the tailwind made it possible? We would find out on the return trip.

Filling up With E85 in Las Vegas
The Flamingo Stop fuel station offers E85 out of the same nozzle from which gasoline is dispensed. We wondered if unsuspecting motorists have accidentally refueled with E85, intending to get gas. Unlike the diesel nozzle, which is a different size to prevent just such mishaps, the gas/E85 nozzle is one and the same.

Nearby, a man was pumping E85 into a brand-new Chevrolet Avalanche, complete with flex-fuel badges. It was a good opportunity to get some man-on-the-street reactions.

Edmunds.com: How do you like running on E85?
Avalanche Owner: The mileage sucks. On gas I can get 18 (miles per gallon). On E85 I get like 12.

Did you buy this truck so you could run on E85?
Yup.

But you get worse gas mileage. So why do you do it?
To help the environment.

Footnote: This man didn't seem to fit the profile of an environmentalist, tree-hugger or greenie. He was just a regular guy trying to do something good for the planet. We experienced a small burst of patriotic pride.

Run #2: Las Vegas to San Diego
On the way back we were hit smack in the face (or fascia) with high winds. The same winds that had improved our fuel economy on the leg from San Diego were about to even things out on the way back.

The drive back was filled with gauge-watching. Would we make it on one tank? The headwind was clearly taking its toll. Nearing San Diego, the navigation system's "Distance Remaining" total exceeded the digital "Fuel Range" on our instrument cluster. With 55 miles to go, the low-fuel warning lamp came on. At 36 miles, we pulled over and added five gallons of E85, reminding ourselves to add that amount to the total when we refilled.

The Final Score — Fuel Economy and Cost
After refueling we put the fuel amounts and the prices paid into a spreadsheet and compiled a clear, side-by-side comparison for both fuel consumption and cost. Remember, these results apply only to this vehicle and to the prices in effect during our 667-mile test.

Gas Result: From San Diego to Las Vegas and back, we used 36.5 gallons of regular gasoline and achieved an average fuel economy of 18.3 mpg.

Gas Cost: We spent $124.66 for gasoline for the trip. The average pump price was $3.42 per gallon.

E85 Result: From San Diego to Las Vegas and back we used 50 gallons of E85 and achieved an average fuel economy of 13.5 mpg.

E85 Cost: We spent $154.29 on E85 for the trip. The average pump price was $3.09 per gallon

Gas/E85 difference:The fuel economy of our Tahoe on E85, under these conditions, was 26.5 percent worse than it was when running on gas.

A motorist, filling up and comparing the prices of regular gas and E85, might see the price advantage of E85 (in our case 33 cents or 9.7 percent less) as a bargain. However, since fuel economy is significantly reduced, the net effect is that a person choosing to run their flex-fuel vehicle on E85 on a trip like ours will spend 22.8 percent more to drive the same distance. For us, the E85 trip was about $30 more expensive — about 22.9 cents per mile on E85 versus 18.7 cents per mile with gasoline.

The Final Score Card — Performance
We were also interested to see if there was a clear difference in performance. Here, the news was better for the renewable fuel. While the test times were generally slower for E85, the difference was small enough to go unnoticed by most drivers. Despite E85's higher octane rating (103 here) the flex-fuel nature of the Tahoe's 5.3-liter V8 engine prevents it from taking full advantage.



Final results 0-60 1/4 mile 50-70 passing,
uphill (sec.)
  time (sec.) time @ (sec.) speed (mph) Cajon Pass Baker Grade
Gas 9.3 16.7 84.2 7.6* 7.2
E85 9.8 17.0 82.7 7.2 7.3

* delayed kickdown

Environmental Comparison
E85 is often heralded as a way to reduce air pollution. Since increasing concern about global warming has focused attention on greenhouse gases, we decided to track our carbon emissions during this test.

By relating our observed fuel economy to CO2 emission figures found in the EPA's Green Vehicle Guide we determined that our gasoline round trip produced 706.5 pounds of carbon dioxide. On E85, the CO2 emissions came to 703.1 pounds. The difference came out in E85's favor, but only by a scant 0.5 percent. Call it a tie. This is certainly not the reduction in greenhouse gas emissions we had been led to expect.

Related Questions About E85
Recent concerns have surfaced about the efficiency of ethanol production. Some critics have actually said that it is a "negative energy source," meaning that more energy is required to produce ethanol than it delivers as a fuel. Further doubts have surfaced about the true environmental benefits of ethanol and E85. And some critics have said that as farmers switch from growing corn for food production to growing it for ethanol, it could produce food shortages. Higher corn prices have already been reported.

But our test wasn't designed to answer those questions. What we can say is that motorists already feeling strapped because of current gasoline prices won't get any relief by switching to ethanol. There are sure to be some who elect to pay the premium to run on E85 to support U.S. energy independence, which is a noble act.

Looking into the future, E85 prices will almost certainly fall as production rises. But will they fall enough to offset the reduced fuel economy? And when will there be enough pumps to make it practical? If an E85 pump is just 10 miles out of the way, thus requiring a 20-mile round trip, you're looking at a $4 or $5 premium just to get to the fuel. We had to go 130 miles to find the only E85 station in our state. In addition, we can imagine a scenario in which elevated E85 demand will not only put upward pressure on E85 prices, but may also tempt oil companies to cut gasoline prices to compete — ultimately driving the public back to fossil fuels.

We applaud the pursuit of energy independence and the financial boost ethanol production will give to American farmers. But is E85 the panacea promoters say it is? While it could be a part of the solution, it is clearly not a silver bullet. If the economics don't change significantly, a broader introduction of E85, as proposed by our government and endorsed by U.S. automakers, could eventually be met with a negative response — even from our most patriotic consumers.
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RoadKill
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Manhattan KS


« Reply #33 on: April 05, 2010, 09:04:14 PM »

one vehicle,designed to run on ethanol as an alternative...maybe it would have had different results if it were programed for dinosaur fuel as an alternate/secondary fuel.
 and "Gas Cost: We spent $124.66 for gasoline for the trip. The average pump price was $3.42 per gallon.E85 Cost: We spent $154.29 on E85 for the trip. The average pump price was $3.09 per gallon".

Maybe we are getting hosed on the price of E-85...? ? ?  If it's politically correct you know there are some bureaucrats lining their pockets with it! 
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Black Dog
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Merton Wisconsin 53029


« Reply #34 on: April 06, 2010, 05:43:00 AM »

Valker...  Great read.  This paragraph sums up what I've been saying all along  uglystupid2

By relating our observed fuel economy to CO2 emission figures found in the EPA's Green Vehicle Guide we determined that our gasoline round trip produced 706.5 pounds of carbon dioxide. On E85, the CO2 emissions came to 703.1 pounds. The difference came out in E85's favor, but only by a scant 0.5 percent. Call it a tie. This is certainly not the reduction in greenhouse gas emissions we had been led to expect.

In essence, we are not doing anything 'special' for the environment, when the side by side tests show a virtual tie, for the 'Carbon Footprint'...  The E-85 (or all blended fuel) arguement does not stand up to it's hype.  Undecided

Black Dog
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X Ring
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« Reply #35 on: April 06, 2010, 09:43:12 AM »

Actually when you add the CO2 emissions from the farm equipment; tractor, combine, etc.; plus the vehicles needed to bring the supplies to the farm and trucks taking the corn to market I think you will find it is worse than the added CO2 emissions for the production of dino fuels.

Marty
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fudgie
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« Reply #36 on: April 06, 2010, 07:27:21 PM »

Actually when you add the CO2 emissions from the farm equipment; tractor, combine, etc.; plus the vehicles needed to bring the supplies to the farm and trucks taking the corn to market I think you will find it is worse than the added CO2 emissions for the production of dino fuels.

Marty
Thats when you use soy diesel!  2funny
Uncle says farm diesel is different then highway diesel. Must be the highway additives. He gets better mpg with the farm diesel then the highway diesel. Uh, ummm, that is if he would do something like that!  Lips Sealed
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« Reply #37 on: April 06, 2010, 09:17:21 PM »

Thats when you use soy diesel!  2funny
Uncle says farm diesel is different then highway diesel. Must be the highway additives. He gets better mpg with the farm diesel then the highway diesel. Uh, ummm, that is if he would do something like that!  Lips Sealed

Bite your tongue Fudgie!!!!  Surely no one would use untaxed diesel in an on highway vehicle.   coolsmiley

Marty
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98valk
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South Jersey


« Reply #38 on: April 07, 2010, 05:15:02 AM »

Actually when you add the CO2 emissions from the farm equipment; tractor, combine, etc.; plus the vehicles needed to bring the supplies to the farm and trucks taking the corn to market I think you will find it is worse than the added CO2 emissions for the production of dino fuels.

Marty
Thats when you use soy diesel!  2funny
Uncle says farm diesel is different then highway diesel. Must be the highway additives. He gets better mpg with the farm diesel then the highway diesel. Uh, ummm, that is if he would do something like that!  Lips Sealed

bio-diesel eats up the oil so more large multi-quart oil changes are required so that the engine will survive.
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stormrider
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Posts: 1147


Kinsey, AL


« Reply #39 on: April 27, 2010, 11:05:26 PM »

Has anyone heard from their local gas dealer about being forced to sell ethenol? Stopped by our locally owned, gas pump attended, full service service station today only to find out they were forced to take on ethenol laced gasoline. This sucks. When the heck is enough going to be enough. This ponzi scheme has gone on long enough. It has forced up the price of corn that we feed our stock, which in turn has forced up the price of most other food products. When will enough be enough?
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