God

[Walküre]

Personally, I think Aethism is as much a religion as ANY.  The hyper-sensitive non-believers that get offended by the mere mention of God or Jesus.

Jabba

Actually, this is one of the biggest misconceptions around. Atheism is NOT a religion. Yet it is called a religion, ONLY by religious people. Religion is based solely on "belief" and "faith". Virtually all religions have at their core, a "belief" that there is a Supreme Being, that "created" all of this. And also, that there's an "after-life". An atheist merely doesn't "believe". He doesn't have "faith" that there isn't a god, simply that man as a thinking animal, has a need to "believe" that there HAS to be something past this mortal life. And, due to that need, will grasp at ANYthing to extend that belief. It's really simple to SAY something, that's not "provable". No one has ever proven one little thing, that a god exists, or that the Bible is anything but a wonderful book of fiction. No one denies that MAN wrote the Bible, but everyone says it was with "divine inspiration", and the hand of god. Yet today, if someone says that "God" has talked to them, in person, they are viewed as psychotic, at best. Yet people adhere to a book that was written and revised MANY times over, changed at will by clergy and leaders alike, to fit the times, with true religious fervor. To the point, that when I ask for proof, the only response I get is "the Bible says it!!". That isn't proof, as far as I'm concerned. Proof enough for you, ok.

The other thing that I see interspersed throughout, is the need for "Christians" to impose their beliefs on me, and mine. Why, of course, the Bible (therefore "God") instructs them to do that. In a word, I don't want to hear your crap. I don't want to hear it, at the ball game, before I ride, in schools, or any where. If I wanted to hear it, I'd go to church. Or visit you in your home. Basically, go to places that I would expect to hear "the word of God". I don't go to ball games to hear it. Yet so many religious people say THEIR rights are infringed upon, because prayer does NOT belong in schools. Just as out of respect for others, I wouldn't sit around vocalizing obscenities, I don't want people to sit around spouting voodoo. And I'm sure that I would get a negative response, possibly even a violent response, if any time someone forced me to listen to prayer, outside of church, etc, that I DID have a sudden fit of Tourette Syndrome, and spiel curses. But, if it's YOUR right to prayer whenever, wherever you want, then it's MY right to counter with cursing and yelling, whenever and wherever I want. I guess I'm saying, is if I came into YOUR church, and started spewing anti-god and anti-Christian speech, you would kick me out. Yet, I can't kick you out, when you come to my ball game, and spew god and Christian speech...

I just ask that MY feelings and rights are observed. Yes, I am offended by it, because (and I do NOT intend to insult any one person, or belief) to me, that people "believe" is possibly one of the worst things that has ever happened - that the current religious "fervor" is the American Taliban. Christians want Christianity imposed on everyone, everywhere, just as the Taliban want religious purity. The methods are different, but I can see the possibility of the methods becoming more the same, as time goes by. With all the talk of "tyranny", and seeing a rise in armed militia, and people showing up at protests armed, locked, and loaded, I see us reverting to a third-world country. And so much of it has roots in religious fanaticism. I know I'll get a WHOLE bunch of "no it's not, not it's not!!", but that's my opinion, and I'm sticking to it...

I hope the thread continues, with respect for each other, and each others feelings. I'm not surprised at the ~80-20% split, that seems the norm throughout the country. But, majority does NOT make something so, nor offer PROOF that something is. Merely that the majority "believe" it is so. Just remember at one time that 99% of people, "believed" that the world was flat. Didn't make it so...

and Robert, since YOU'RE so close to the "man" himself, perhaps you should be the one to find out?

Sorry, couldn't resist...just seemed a little extreme...

R

[Jabba]

Walkurie, why does it offend you to hear Christian speech?  I am not flaming you man... I just don't get it.  I don't get offended by Christian, Jewish, Muslim or any other speech. 

The way I look at it is... we have the RIGHT to choose our religion as guaranteed by the US Constitution.  We do NOT have the right to NOT be offended.  That's simply NEVER going to happen.  You can CHOOSE to not attend events where the organisers CHOOSE to have Christian speech.  Just as I defend their right to speak it.  Even if I don't buy it.  Just like smoking in a restaurant.  I don't smoke, and I LOVE going to a restaurant that has smoking BANNED, but I disagree with the government smoking bans that prohibit it.  It's an infraction of my the property owners rights to have the gov't say what they can or cant do on HIS property.  Just as it's an infraction of someone's RIGHTS to free speech to be prohibited from Christian speech, because it offends you.  Don't like it... don't listen, or choose to go elsewhere.  pen your own ball league that skips the anthem and prayer or whatever.  That's YOUR right.  But it's NOT your RIGHT to silence people that speek that which offends you.



Jabba 

[Chrisj CMA]

AMEN Jabba on the part about "We dont have the right to NOT be offended"  I agree we shouldnt have that right, but it seems lately we do.  A single man who didnt even live in Arizona said that cross out in the desert offended him and he got the ACLU all over it and it was orderd coverd up for a long time. 

We live in pathetic times, little crybabies pop up everywhere with law suits because they are offended by this or that stupid thing and our society takes action.  I remember the day when at work, in the military, around town...if someone stood up and said hey Im offended by this or that, no less than 4 people would immediatly say "shut up, and get in line"  and that would be the end of it...........the good ol days.

[Bobbo]

AMEN Jabba on the part about "We dont have the right to NOT be offended"  I agree we shouldnt have that right, but it seems lately we do.  A single man who didnt even live in Arizona said that cross out in the desert offended him and he got the ACLU all over it and it was orderd coverd up for a long time. 

We live in pathetic times, little crybabies pop up everywhere with law suits because they are offended by this or that stupid thing and our society takes action.  I remember the day when at work, in the military, around town...if someone stood up and said hey Im offended by this or that, no less than 4 people would immediatly say "shut up, and get in line"  and that would be the end of it...........the good ol days.

I agree that we don’t have the right to not be offended, but I think you are confusing being offended with a legal and constitutional issue.  A religious symbol on government owned land could be seen as an endorsement of a religion, which is in violation of the First Amendment.  Citizens have the right and obligation to challenge such infringements no matter where they live.
If, for example, the current administration declared that private ownership of firearms would cease, you wouldn’t respond with “Those little NRA crybabies are offended by our leaders trying to make us safe”, would you?  Of course not.  You would join me and others to protest an infringement on the Second Amendment and back the NRA’s lawsuit.

[Jabba]

I agree that we don’t have the right to not be offended, but I think you are confusing being offended with a legal and constitutional issue.  A religious symbol on government owned land could be seen as an endorsement of a religion, which is in violation of the First Amendment.  Citizens have the right and obligation to challenge such infringements no matter where they live.

You think that merely having a religious symbol on government owned land is a violation of the 1st ammendment?  I respectfully disagree.  Even though I am not a proclaimed Christian, I believe that the nation WAS founde don those principals.  In fact it's IN the founding documents over and over.  Are THEY violations of the 1st ammendment too?

When, in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the laws of nature and of nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed.


Jabba

[Bobbo]

Jabba, the Declaration of Independence, which you quoted, is not the Constitution.  In fact, the Constitution does not say anything about God.  Even the Declaration of Independence uses the phrase “laws of nature” and “nature’s God” instead of a specific religion.  This is consistent with the First Amendment, which protects individuals right to choose their beliefs, and bars the government from establishing a religion.
The phrases referencing nature’s God was included to give the document a feeling of higher authority, not as an endorsement of religion.   If the Declaration of Independence just said “because we want to…” it would have far less weight than a reference to nature’s way. 
If this had been a non-Christian symbol on government land, I think there would have been a larger outpouring of complaints far earlier than this event.

[Robert]

Walküre actually I already know so its no problem but I thought I would let someone else if they could talk to the man and we would compare notes. Cursing is not good nor a blessing. I see your point but just like talking to God you have a different view point. cursing may be as annoying to you to have someone pray but they are not berating you nor wishing you harm when they pray. In fact with everything they are they are trying to bless you. Why do you think they call it a curse because that is exactly what it is. Plus Im sorry in America there is tolerance for different ideas and such but majority does make the rules.

[Jack]

Plus Im sorry in America there is tolerance for different ideas and such but majority does make the rules.

I hope you aren't serious.

[Chrisj CMA]

AMEN Jabba on the part about "We dont have the right to NOT be offended"  I agree we shouldnt have that right, but it seems lately we do.  A single man who didnt even live in Arizona said that cross out in the desert offended him and he got the ACLU all over it and it was orderd coverd up for a long time. 

We live in pathetic times, little crybabies pop up everywhere with law suits because they are offended by this or that stupid thing and our society takes action.  I remember the day when at work, in the military, around town...if someone stood up and said hey Im offended by this or that, no less than 4 people would immediatly say "shut up, and get in line"  and that would be the end of it...........the good ol days.

I agree that we don’t have the right to not be offended, but I think you are confusing being offended with a legal and constitutional issue.  A religious symbol on government owned land could be seen as an endorsement of a religion, which is in violation of the First Amendment.  Citizens have the right and obligation to challenge such infringements no matter where they live.
If, for example, the current administration declared that private ownership of firearms would cease, you wouldn’t respond with “Those little NRA crybabies are offended by our leaders trying to make us safe”, would you?  Of course not.  You would join me and others to protest an infringement on the Second Amendment and back the NRA’s lawsuit.

Bobbo, There are many crosses at Arlington National Cemetary...been there for years, no one ever got their feelings hurt over them crosses.

Did you know there are thousands and thousands and thousands of United States Service men and women burried overseas?  Did you know that almost everyone of their graves are marked with a cross?
Did you know that a cross is a universal symbol for Christianity.  No religion here just Christianity.........why cant you "no God" people just be happy that America recognizes your right to NOT believe.  Even if you dont believe it The United States of America is a nation founded on Christianity........not Catholisism, not Baptist......the founders were widely diverse in their RELIGION................but Christianity was the underpinnings..........

Do you know that soldiers have carried the Word of God into battle since there have been Americans in battle?

Did you know that Soldiers pray before going into harms way, and the ones that dont believe strangely stand quietly without being offended.

Did you know that prisoners in FEDERAL prisions are hungry for Christian preaching, inmates are probably the most spiritual seekers there are........some of my buddies are into prison ministry and they come out of there moved and changed because God is so alive in there and the inmates are so receptive of the Holy Spirit...Few other countries alow this but here in America

A cross is not necessarily a religious symbol.  But it is an American  symbol!

[Bobbo]

Bobbo, There are many crosses at Arlington National Cemetary...been there for years, no one ever got their feelings hurt over them crosses.

Did you know there are thousands and thousands and thousands of United States Service men and women burried overseas?  Did you know that almost everyone of their graves are marked with a cross?
Did you know that a cross is a universal symbol for Christianity.  No religion here just Christianity.........why cant you "no God" people just be happy that America recognizes your right to NOT believe.  Even if you dont believe it The United States of America is a nation founded on Christianity........not Catholisism, not Baptist......the founders were widely diverse in their RELIGION................but Christianity was the underpinnings..........

Do you know that soldiers have carried the Word of God into battle since there have been Americans in battle?

Did you know that Soldiers pray before going into harms way, and the ones that dont believe strangely stand quietly without being offended.

Did you know that prisoners in FEDERAL prisions are hungry for Christian preaching, inmates are probably the most spiritual seekers there are........some of my buddies are into prison ministry and they come out of there moved and changed because God is so alive in there and the inmates are so receptive of the Holy Spirit...Few other countries alow this but here in America

A cross is not necessarily a religious symbol.  But it is an American  symbol!

The examples you site are all personal use of a Christian cross.  The lawsuit was about public use of a cross on public land, which is a very different issue.

As for Christianity being the foundation or “underpinnings” to the formation of our government and nation, I challenge you to show me where, in any official founding document, there are references to Christianity as the basis of our nation.  Letters and such are opinion, and aren’t part of the founding documents.

Federal prisons are full of addicted people.  Additions like drugs, theft, violence, and such put them there.  It is no wonder they gladly accept another addiction, a religious belief.  Addicted people are always looking for that “magic pill” to satisfy their addictions.  Religious dealers are all to eager to offer them this pill.

If the Christian cross is an American symbol, please tell me where it is on our flag? Our money? Our government documents?  Our official seal?

Let me ask you this:  If one early morning you awoke to hear Islamic call to prayer blasting from the government operated speakers on warning towers, would you say “Oh, that’s OK.  Religious use of public property is granted in our Constitution”?  Unlikely…  I’m sure you would be one of the offended that would complain about it.

[Chrisj CMA]

Bobbo.....you refuse to acknowledge that Christianity is not a religion.  I would be angry if ISLAMIC prayers were blasted from government buildings because that would be endorsing a religion.  A religion that has no part in the herritage of our nation.  Yes we have Muslims in America, thats not the same.

You asked where are the crosses on American things.  I told you Cemetaries federal ones, Christian Chaplains wear a cross on their uniform regardless of what religion they are.  There is not a catholic cross for priests or a protestant cross for baptist chaplains......just the Christian cross.  It would not be proper to put a sign of Christ on money.  Crosses are a part of our national heritage even though you disagree and its not meant to support any particular religion when its used in a national cemetary.

God guns and country and that aint no Buddah or Allah.......its always been Christ.  No offense meant

[Willow]

i'm only replying to my post to try and push the "GOD" thread over onto page two so it gets forgotten!!

I have no contribution that I'm willing to make to this thread.  There's already way too much inanity on both (maybe many) sides of this discussion.

I'm really only replying to this thread to aggravate Alph.    

[Jabba]

There are an awful lot of "Stars of David" in the national cemetaries too.

Personally, I do nto consider myself Christian".  But I think I act more like one than a lot of people who do.  I am not perfect nor near it.  But I TRY. 

I am NOT offended by religious speech.  I think people that are are threatened by it.  I don't understand what is so threatening though.  I have attended blessings of bikes.  I have been prayed over.  I get drug to church once in a while.  I have never once had it burn.  Not yet anyway.

eh...  Live and let live I say... that goes for people on BOTH sides of the discussion.  I'll share some wind, and some vittles with the heathens in this club as well as the churchy people.  I'll try to help ANY one of you out of a jam, any time you need me.  Just call.


Jabba

[big turkey]

We are,, What we Do.




 Jabba.



Big Al

[Chrisj CMA]

There are an awful lot of "Stars of David" in the national cemetaries too.

Personally, I do nto consider myself Christian".  But I think I act more like one than a lot of people who do.  I am not perfect nor near it.  But I TRY. 

I am NOT offended by religious speech.  I think people that are are threatened by it.  I don't understand what is so threatening though.  I have attended blessings of bikes.  I have been prayed over.  I get drug to church once in a while.  I have never once had it burn.  Not yet anyway.

eh...  Live and let live I say... that goes for people on BOTH sides of the discussion.  I'll share some wind, and some vittles with the heathens in this club as well as the churchy people.  I'll try to help ANY one of you out of a jam, any time you need me.  Just call.


Jabba

Id like to ride with you any time Jabba

[fstsix]

Jesus Loves You!!!

[Chrisj CMA]

Jesus Loves You!!!

Hey fstsix......I thought this thread could use a little levity....I saw a bumper sticker that said

"JESUS Loves You............everyone else thinks you're an @$$#*!&"

The last word was spelled out but I thought Id go secure 

(not directed at anyone.....just reporting the news, you decide)

[Serk]

Jesus Saves!!!

...he passes to Gretzky, he shoots... HE SCORES!!!!!


 

[Jeff K]

I managed to stay away from this thread for quite some time, but now that I looked, I have to ask... If Jesus was beheaded by the guillotine, instead of being nailed to a cross, would there be a bunch of people running around with little gold guillotines around their necks?  ???

[fstsix]

Jesus Loves You!!!

Hey fstsix......I thought this thread could use a little levity....I saw a bumper sticker that said

"JESUS Loves You............everyone else thinks you're an @$$#*!&"

The last word was spelled out but I thought Id go secure 

(not directed at anyone.....just reporting the news, you decide)

Jeff lol!!....on vacation down in Tampa...wasn't Hot enough for me up north ..been reading this thread very typical of the world on all fronts....How can can Jesus who Loved us so much, and could not stretch his arms out on Cross  any further.....be hated so much ?

[Jack]

Who said Jesus was hated?

[Chrisj CMA]

Who said Jesus was hated?

Jesus did

[Bobbo]

I managed to stay away from this thread for quite some time, but now that I looked, I have to ask... If Jesus was beheaded by the guillotine, instead of being nailed to a cross, would there be a bunch of people running around with little gold guillotines around their necks?  ???

Or hanged...  Gold noose anyone?!

[Jack]

Who said Jesus was hated?

Jesus did

Since the Bible was written decades after Christ, I don't see how anyone could be sure just what he said anymore than I could say what my great-grandfather might have said.  Were there any text collaborating Christ written during or immediately after his time?

[98valk]

Who said Jesus was hated?

Jesus did

Since the Bible was written decades after Christ, I don't see how anyone could be sure just what he said anymore than I could say what my great-grandfather might have said.  Were there any text collaborating Christ written during or immediately after his time?

http://www.wcg.org/lit/bible/gospels/howknow.htm

also in regard to books of antiquity the new testament bible was written/put together approx 60 yrs after Christ death by some of the apostles who actually walked with Him. For antiquity 60 yrs is like yesterday for our time. There is much info out there about why the bible is accurate and true and its history. There are 1ks of people who have died to bring the bible to the masses over the centuries.
http://www.allaboutgod.com/is-the-bible-true.htm

God Bless in your search for the Truth

[Jack]

From your link:

'So let's ask again the questions we posed at the beginning. Do these passages provide any real basis for a knowledge of Jesus as a historical figure? I think you will agree that the answer is "No." More importantly, should we use these passages as a primary means by which we bolster our faith in Jesus of Nazareth? Again, I hope you would agree that the answer is an emphatic "No!" '

[fudgie]

I was raised catholic. Went to church ever Sat night. (Sunday was used for shooting ground hogs.)  Got married in the church etc. Wife went to cath school. I never was big into it. By that I mean I did no extra things at church, spread the word, etc. As time went on and work and marriage began, we kinda fell out of it. Going every 2 weeks to going every x-mas eve. Further the struggle with life, had a baby die at birth and my marrige needed fixed. No time to go anymore and neither of the 2 could be fixed. Forword a few years I meet Kit. She grew up in a religous home. She goes to church a couple times a month and has done some bible studies lately. She likes it. She tries to get me to go but I dont. I (think) I know I should go but dont. My new year resolution was to go back to my old church but I have not. We will sit and talk about things together and other people. She worries about me she says. Of where I'll end up. I like the things I do now. Without going into details, I'll say I like nekkid women, drinkin, and bikes. All 3 and then some go great together!  We both agree sinning can be fun, but probaly not so in the end.
I dont know. I believe in a god but dont practice, so to speak. So many unanswered questions for me, such as like Jabba. We think a like. Scarry!  There have been way to many wars and battle fought over religion. That cant be a good thing, is it? 
Sorry for the rant. Just thinking out loud.

[bigdog99]

i will agree with you Fudgie, i do look back and say wow, why so many wars due to religion? its not what God said to do, its what mans interpretation was of what was said.
we are to love our brothers. i think everyone has sin in them, we are to hate the sin, and love the man. sometimes that is hard to do, just ask my wife.

[Chrisj CMA]

I was raised catholic. Went to church ever Sat night. (Sunday was used for shooting ground hogs.)  Got married in the church etc. Wife went to cath school. I never was big into it. By that I mean I did no extra things at church, spread the word, etc. As time went on and work and marriage began, we kinda fell out of it. Going every 2 weeks to going every x-mas eve. Further the struggle with life, had a baby die at birth and my marrige needed fixed. No time to go anymore and neither of the 2 could be fixed. Forword a few years I meet Kit. She grew up in a religous home. She goes to church a couple times a month and has done some bible studies lately. She likes it. She tries to get me to go but I dont. I (think) I know I should go but dont. My new year resolution was to go back to my old church but I have not. We will sit and talk about things together and other people. She worries about me she says. Of where I'll end up. I like the things I do now. Without going into details, I'll say I like nekkid women, drinkin, and bikes. All 3 and then some go great together!  We both agree sinning can be fun, but probaly not so in the end.
I dont know. I believe in a god but dont practice, so to speak. So many unanswered questions for me, such as like Jabba. We think a like. Scarry!  There have been way to many wars and battle fought over religion. That cant be a good thing, is it? 
Sorry for the rant. Just thinking out loud.

Fudgie...I too grew up Catholic....I too got tired of the BS.......I became a Christian 10 years after stopping going to catholic church.  Its the religion that I was hating.  Not God.  Its religion that wars are fought over.  I have no use for religion....I do go to church, but I dont consider myself religious.  I dont do anything or not do anything unless its in the Bible or I feel its what God leads to  or from.  A relationship with Christ is what he wants for us all.  It sounds like thats what Kit wants for you.  I say set aside religion.  You dont have to conform to another man's idea of rightesness.  Let Kit show you how to get to know Christ, and you will be changed....He will make you what you are supposed to be.........and you dont need to be religioous.....Christ didnt get along with the religious folk either

[fudgie]

I was raised catholic. Went to church ever Sat night. (Sunday was used for shooting ground hogs.)  Got married in the church etc. Wife went to cath school. I never was big into it. By that I mean I did no extra things at church, spread the word, etc. As time went on and work and marriage began, we kinda fell out of it. Going every 2 weeks to going every x-mas eve. Further the struggle with life, had a baby die at birth and my marrige needed fixed. No time to go anymore and neither of the 2 could be fixed. Forword a few years I meet Kit. She grew up in a religous home. She goes to church a couple times a month and has done some bible studies lately. She likes it. She tries to get me to go but I dont. I (think) I know I should go but dont. My new year resolution was to go back to my old church but I have not. We will sit and talk about things together and other people. She worries about me she says. Of where I'll end up. I like the things I do now. Without going into details, I'll say I like nekkid women, drinkin, and bikes. All 3 and then some go great together!  We both agree sinning can be fun, but probaly not so in the end.
I dont know. I believe in a god but dont practice, so to speak. So many unanswered questions for me, such as like Jabba. We think a like. Scarry!  There have been way to many wars and battle fought over religion. That cant be a good thing, is it? 
Sorry for the rant. Just thinking out loud.

Fudgie...I too grew up Catholic....I too got tired of the BS.......I became a Christian 10 years after stopping going to catholic church.  Its the religion that I was hating.  Not God.  Its religion that wars are fought over.  I have no use for religion....I do go to church, but I dont consider myself religious.  I dont do anything or not do anything unless its in the Bible or I feel its what God leads to  or from.  A relationship with Christ is what he wants for us all.  It sounds like thats what Kit wants for you.  I say set aside religion.  You dont have to conform to another man's idea of rightesness.  Let Kit show you how to get to know Christ, and you will be changed....He will make you what you are supposed to be.........and you dont need to be religioous.....Christ didnt get along with the religious folk either

Now that I can understand.!  You make very good points. We'll see how it goes.

[Jabba]

I'll say I like nekkid women, drinkin, and bikes. All 3 and then some go great together!

I think you can partake in a lot of those without offending God.  Appreciating a nekkid woman doesn't mean you have to DO anything with her.  Some people can't handle that.  Drinking and bikes?... well, I don't like it when they MIX in that order, but Bikes THEN drinking is OK in my book.  Just cause I don't drink, doesn't mean I am judgemental of those who do. 

Personally, I think God has a sense of humor.   Look around the world... It should be obvious.  Whomever designed a platypus was a joker.

Jabba

[98valk]

From your link:

'So let's ask again the questions we posed at the beginning. Do these passages provide any real basis for a knowledge of Jesus as a historical figure? I think you will agree that the answer is "No." More importantly, should we use these passages as a primary means by which we bolster our faith in Jesus of Nazareth? Again, I hope you would agree that the answer is an emphatic "No!" '

He is mentioned by these secular historians, proof of His existence only, other than the Bible. Only the Bible tells us about Him and His nature. This puts away the arguement by non-believers that He never existed, because only the bible talks about him and the non-believers (atheists) consider the bible a fairy tale book. Atheists also believe that Christians are mentally insane for believing and should be put away, however I can say the same about them.
Is there evidence that there is no god, yes there is, but there is much, much more evidence proving that there is a God. The problem with non-believers esp atheist is that they only focus on the small amount of evidence of no god and never go to the overwhelming evidence of a God. Reason, it would cause them to Change. People do not like to change. Even us Christians, but God has a gentle way of getting us to want to change for Him.

two men who actually did change after trying to disprove God. I have read some of their books.

http://www.josh.org/site/c.ddKDIMNtEqG/b.4169767/k.F42D/Joshs_Bio.htm
"As a young man, Josh McDowell considered himself an agnostic. He truly believed that Christianity was worthless. However, when challenged to intellectually examine the claims of Christianity, Josh discovered compelling, overwhelming evidence for the reliability of the Christian faith."

http://www.leestrobel.com/Bio.php
"Atheist-turned-Christian Lee Strobel, the former award-winning legal editor of The Chicago Tribune, is a New York Times best-selling author of nearly twenty books and has been interviewed on numerous national television programs, including ABC's 20/20, Fox News, and CNN.
After a nearly two-year investigation of the evidence for Jesus, Lee received Christ as his forgiver and leader in 1981."

from the link:

Our faith in Jesus Christ is not based on a few brief texts in the writings of Jewish and Greco-Roman historians – however fascinating they may be. How do we know about Jesus? Primarily through the most reliable witnesses, the Gospels – the great theological histories of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.

Some Christians may be disappointed that all the substantial evidence for Jesus comes from Christian sources. If you are disappointed, here are a couple of questions you might want to consider:

First, why would Jesus leave any traces on the pages of secular history? He was virtually unknown – an traveling teacher who enjoyed limited popularity within a small community in a remote province on the eastern edge of the Roman empire. In the words of John P. Meier, professor of New Testament at the Catholic University of America in Washington D.C.: "Jesus was a marginal Jew leading a marginal movement in a marginal province of a vast Roman empire. The wonder is that any learned Jew or pagan would have known or referred to him at all in the first or second centuries" (A Marginal Jew, p. 56).

Second, does the fact that our evidence for Jesus comes from Christian sources mean that the evidence is too biased to be trusted? New Testament scholar Dr. R.T. France, former principal of Wycliffe Hall, Oxford University, gives us an excellent answer:

The Gospel writers tell us about Jesus because they think he is worth telling about, and they want others to follow him as well. But what worthwhile history or biography has ever been written by people who have no personal interest in what they write? Why should a 'bias' in favor of the subject render the history unreliable? Surely those who had been captivated by Jesus might be expected to take pains to pass on truth about him (Jesus 2000, p. 15).

Matthew, Mark, Luke and John certainly passed on the truth about Jesus.


Same here for me like Chris, catholic school, CCD classes, married in the church, not until my divorce did I actually pick up a Bible and start reading it and realize all I was missing about God and His son Jesus the Christ.

God Bless you all!!

[Bobbo]

Fudgie:  First, I’m very sorry to hear of you losing a child at birth.  As a parent, I cannot imagine the deep sadness that would cause.

As for Kit, I suggest explaining to her that her beliefs are her own personal beliefs, and you also have your beliefs.  You should respect hers, and ask that she respect yours.  Putting pressure on you and using guilt are classic techniques of the cult mentality, and it is a sign she is putting those beliefs above your relationship.

[Chrisj CMA]

Fudgie:  First, I’m very sorry to hear of you losing a child at birth.  As a parent, I cannot imagine the deep sadness that would cause.

As for Kit, I suggest explaining to her that her beliefs are her own personal beliefs, and you also have your beliefs.  You should respect hers, and ask that she respect yours.  Putting pressure on you and using guilt are classic techniques of the cult mentality, and it is a sign she is putting those beliefs above your relationship.

Maybe Bobbo should take his own advise?  If a man has questions about God....what bettter person than his own wife to help find the anwers.  Just because some of you out there think all Christians are brainwashed cult members doesnt mean you have to try to force your opinion on others

[Bobbo]

Fudgie:  First, I’m very sorry to hear of you losing a child at birth.  As a parent, I cannot imagine the deep sadness that would cause.

As for Kit, I suggest explaining to her that her beliefs are her own personal beliefs, and you also have your beliefs.  You should respect hers, and ask that she respect yours.  Putting pressure on you and using guilt are classic techniques of the cult mentality, and it is a sign she is putting those beliefs above your relationship.

Maybe Bobbo should take his own advise?  If a man has questions about God....what bettter person than his own wife to help find the anwers.  Just because some of you out there think all Christians are brainwashed cult members doesnt mean you have to try to force your opinion on others

Obviously, I do take my own advice.  I never start a thread proclaiming that I have the answers and everyone must follow my beliefs or be tortured in the afterlife.  When others start a thread like that, I will answer with my beliefs and demonstrate inconsistencies with their beliefs.  Only people with disrespect for other beliefs are brash enough to start threads like that.
I have met hundreds of people who consider themselves Christian, and do not try to intimidate others with the idea that they have the only answer, and you must agree with them or face the consequences.  On the other hand, I have met some who do behave this way, and those are the ones I consider to be part of the brainwashed cult.
I am, in no way, forcing my opinion.  I am expressing my opinion, which is obviously invited, since that’s the purpose of posting one’s situation.

[Chrisj CMA]

  Putting pressure on you and using guilt are classic techniques of the cult mentality, and it is a sign she is putting those beliefs above your relationship.

Ya I suppose anylizing and criticizing Kits respect for her marriage, telling Fudgie "stand up" agaist her is so much better than telling someone about Jesus, I suppose it really shows you care

[Bobbo]

  Putting pressure on you and using guilt are classic techniques of the cult mentality, and it is a sign she is putting those beliefs above your relationship.

Ya I suppose anylizing and criticizing Kits respect for her marriage, telling Fudgie "stand up" agaist her is so much better than telling someone about Jesus, I suppose it really shows you care

I believe that a healthy relationship involves mutual discussion and understanding.  If an impasse is reached, you should leave it at that, or, if it’s a monumental one, possibly get out of the relationship.  This philosophy has served me well in my 31-year loving marriage to my only wife.
Your phrase “stand up against” implies unyielding confrontation, which I didn’t suggest.  Telling someone about Jesus is very different than using subtle phrases to cast guilt onto a person.  I don’t know Fudgie or Kit, and would never suggest that he take some sort of action.  I merely gave him another perspective, and he will decide what is best for their relationship.

[DIGGER]

Did Jesus Reveal The Name Of The Anti Christ	powered by Aeva

[Jack]

Did Jesus Reveal The Name Of The Anti Christ

BS

[bilks]

 ...

Now, this is getting interesting! "More Pop-Corn Miss..!"

(Did you know the word Gullible is not in the Dictionary!)