Re: Viking Pipes? Chillerman response

[Chillerman]

Hmmmm.  Someone pulled my post about MarkT's pipes.  Did I do something wrong?

[Chillerman]

I am going to keep bumping this thread to the top until I get an answer to why my original post was pulled.  I will repost it verbatim.

"If you are looking for a performance exhaust that is still being made, check these out."

http://www.horseapple.com/Valkyrie/Valk_Products/M2W_Exhaust__System/m2w_exhaust__system.html

[dago mooserider]

Wasssn't me. Didn't know u could even do that. MarkT giving you kickbacks or something? J.k.

[MP]

Well, if we can talk about Viking pipes, I would think we can mention MarkT's too. As long as it isn't us, selling our stuff.

mp

[Chillerman]

Wasssn't me. Didn't know u could even do that. MarkT giving you kickbacks or something? J.k.

No, only an administrator can pull a post.  I have no affiliation with Mark and have only met the man twice.  Once when I dropped my pipes off at his house and once when I picked them up.  I thought that maybe some people reading this thread had never heard of any alternative pipes for the Valk, thus my post.  I guess I broke the rules somehow.

[Slammer]

any disrespect to Markt, I know he builds great pipes.

Slammer

[MarkT]

OK, first let me say, I have nothing to do with this thread so far.  And it's being somewhat "hi-jacked". Though the hi-jack is close in subject - not exactly about Viking pipes, but about pipes.

I do note there are some mis-facts stated, about pipes not delivering more power, and about the value of equal length headers and larger diameter ones, which I disagree with.  But I won't re-hi-jack this thread into a technical discussion in that vein.  Another time.  Besides, folks would, and maybe should, take what I have to say about that with a grain of salt, as I have a fiscal interest in my argument.  Though I can back it up with resources.  OK nuff of that.

Secondly,  I don't normally interject any comments when folks post about me or my work, unless I think something needs clarification.  So I didn't in this thread yet.  But anyway, thanks guys, for your comments.


Some facts to note:

"Only an administrator can pull a post".  This is true to my knowledge.

Viking has a "special" relationship to this board, as one of the principles is also the son of the head honcho of this board.  Back in the day - say around 2003 - when Viking was getting started - and my exhaust business had been established for years - Oz posted many glowing reviews of how wonderful the Viking pipes were, on his bike.  Usually without mentioning the interest conflict.  My date above is a guess without looking in backups for such posts which I saved at the time.

In the early days of this board, I was the first "contributing editor", in Oz's words.  I think at least one of those articles may still be on the shop talk pages.  Oz invited me to partner with him in the building of this board.  I declined as I was too busy with my business.  Oz then invited Lamont "Lamonster" Bryden to do the same thing and Lamont jumped at the chance as he was looking to get into the internet and out of the welding business, while I was getting away from the computer  industry, looking to build my own business.  As you know Lamont has since been bought out, moved away from CA to TN (I think) and is running other internet motorcycle boards now.

Some time after the above invitation to me, there was friction between Joe Cocker, his Mad Dog Ranch Fountain Cafe, and the local towns people in Crawford CO, and Oz put up a negative comment about the situation on this board.  I know the Cockers personally and know the inside story, and the comments were unfair and I said so. I also said I would not support this board if such editorial policies continued.  Oz said to me years later, he understood that to be a threat of legal action. That was completely wrong.  The bottom line here being, bad feelings between Oz & me at that time.  Might be some residue.

This is the first year I haven't supported Inzane with free gifts at the drawing - I'd have to look it up, but I know I have donated every year once I started, and I may have started for Inzane I.  I've donated hundreds of dollars worth of gifts in the past.  Not doing it this year wasn't really anything deliberate, I was just really busy & didn't get a round tuit.  OK, there's also the fact that the gifts I gave last year, I attended the presentations and they were poorly presented as to indentifying their source and I questioned the value to my business of giving gifts intended to put my name out there, if the name thing doesn't happen as expected.

Looks like the Viking people are thinking of resurrecting some of their presently defunct business.

Now a post from one of my happy customers has been (unfairly) pulled - the only folks with the ability to do so have a conflict of interest given the parties it affects.  This sort of thing does have legal implications, given this is the largest body of a single-marque community both in the virtual world and the real world, and the law is evolving in this area, about rights and fairness and monopolies and interest conflicts, etc.  This isn't a legal threat either.  I don't make threats.

Those are the facts as I know - and can support them.  In the words of Larry The Cable Guy,
"you don't have to be the head cashier at WalMart to figure this one out".



Given the previous edits, and these truths, I hope this post isn't pulled too. 

[R J]

I was also going to stay out of this link, but, I guess I'll give my opinion.

I've had MarkT pipes, early ones, changeable glass pak, and I currently have Viking pipes.

MarkT pipes woke the old boy up a lot from stock.

Got a good deal on the Vikings, wanted the removable muffler when working on the bike, put them on, and butt dyno said I lost gettie up and go.

So, pulled the heads, and did the Andy mod.   Justin screwed up and told me what they did to the heads.     Did it and reassembled the old boy.

Hot Damn, got my butt dyno woken up and was happy as a pig in a mud hole.

BUT, ya notice I had to do the heads to get the result to equal MarkT pipes.

I'd of put the MarkT's back on, but I donated them to someone in Michigan for the freight.     Don't even remember who it was now......

Now, in support of JeffK, he is into blowers, and I'd say he wants to go bigger. and get the full potential of the blower.   I know we run 4" pipes on the Mustang, with a blower and it is very much better running than on the 2 1/2 or 3" pipes.

I'll shut up now and not respond to any replies.  I'm out of it.....  PM me if ya got a question.

[dago mooserider]

Yikes. I was just kidding (j.k.) about the kickback thing. Didn't mean to help start any political schitt. I'm a newbie & will shut up now. 

[Chillerman]

Willow, thanks for moving this thread to the general board.  I had no intention of hijacking a thread, only to give an alternative to a product that was no longer made.  It would appear that my post has caused a minor controversy to which I have no control.  I am only concerned as to why my post was pulled.  I appreciate your reply to my email.

Sean

[R J]

NOTE:

Any one can delete THEIR post, doesn't take an Administrator.

Look in the upper right corner of your post.

Has 3 words,  Quote, Modify, Remove,   Now this is on your post.  Check it out.

Ya click on one if that is what ya want to do.

[Willow]

First a little explanation as to why the original thread from the Tech board was split and why it appears here on the General board.

It's an easy explanation.  The responses have deviated well away from the original subject and outside the realm of the intent of the Tech board.  It's unfortunate that some of the information in some of these responses does fall within the realm of Tech board info and the original subject.  I haven't adequate tools or willingness to devote time to splitting individual posts' contents. 

I am going to keep bumping this thread to the top until I get an answer to why my original post was pulled.  I will repost it verbatim.

Chillerman, I'm assuming you haven't yet read your email.  I clearly told you I was looking into why the post was pulled and that I would update you when I knew more.  Now that I've seen the post (as you reposted it) I can see where someone would interpret it as an unpaid advertisement as opposed to a testimonial.   The simple inclusion of a phrase such as, "I have these pipes and am pleased with them," would have changed the tone in my opinion.  I'm not saying that's why, as I haven't yet heard why.  I'm just saying that's my immediate impression. 

This is the first year I haven't supported Inzane with free gifts at the drawing - I'd have to look it up, but I know I have donated every year once I started, and I may have started for Inzane I.  I've donated hundreds of dollars worth of gifts in the past.  Not doing it this year wasn't really anything deliberate, I was just really busy & didn't get a round tuit.  OK, there's also the fact that the gifts I gave last year, I attended the presentations and they were poorly presented as to indentifying their source and I questioned the value to my business of giving gifts intended to put my name out there, if the name thing doesn't happen as expected 

Wow, Mark, I feel a little slighted.  I'm the one who gave away most (if not all) of your donations in Colorado.  Not only did I mention who donated them, but I also gave the name of the website and mentioned that you were in our vendor area.  If someone else gave away one of your donations and failed to properly advertise your site, it slipped past me.

Either way, this is the first notice I've had from you of your dissatisfaction and that surprises me.  I do have an email address and you'll probably recall that you and I conversed for quite some time at your booth in the vendor area there in Frisco. 

Incidentally, there are a couple of other references to MarkT pipes in that thread which were certainly not pulled.

I'm a little unclear on the reference to "conflict of interest".  That term is usually reserved for elected officials who have a responsibility to legislate, adjudicate or enforce without regard to their personal connections.

I've heard nothing but favorable comments regarding your products, Mark, and your contributions to the Valkyrie community.  Anytime you'd like to become a paid advertiser on this board I would be more than willing to strongly support your candidacy.   

[Chillerman]

NOTE:

Any one can delete THEIR post, doesn't take an Administrator.

Look in the upper right corner of your post.

Has 3 words,  Quote, Modify, Remove,   Now this is on your post.  Check it out.

Ya click on one if that is what ya want to do.

RJ, you are correct.  I could have pulled my own post.  That is not the case and was verified.
Sean

[Chillerman]

Chillerman, I'm assuming you haven't yet read your email.  I clearly told you I was looking into why the post was pulled and that I would update you when I knew more.  Now that I've seen the post (as you reposted it) I can see where someone would interpret it as an unpaid advertisement as opposed to a testimonial.   The simple inclusion of a phrase such as, "I have these pipes and am pleased with them," would have changed the tone in my opinion.  I'm not saying that's why, as I haven't yet heard why.  I'm just saying that's my immediate impression. 

Willow,
I did repost before seeing your email and I apologize.  I still see nothing wrong with my original post.
Sean

[Karmacursed]

This has "West side Story" Sharks and Jets feel to it. Maybe we can call it "The Darkside Story" and change it to the Pipes and the Jet Kits instead.

[MarkT]

Wow, Mark, I feel a little slighted.  I'm the one who gave away most (if not all) of your donations in Colorado.  Not only did I mention who donated them, but I also gave the name of the website and mentioned that you were in our vendor area.  If someone else gave away one of your donations and failed to properly advertise your site, it slipped past me.

Either way, this is the first notice I've had from you of your dissatisfaction and that surprises me.  I do have an email address and you'll probably recall that you and I conversed for quite some time at your booth in the vendor area there in Frisco. 

Incidentally, there are a couple of other references to MarkT pipes in that thread which were certainly not pulled.

I'm a little unclear on the reference to "conflict of interest".  That term is usually reserved for elected officials who have a responsibility to legislate, adjudicate or enforce without regard to their personal connections.

I've heard nothing but favorable comments regarding your products, Mark, and your contributions to the Valkyrie community.  Anytime you'd like to become a paid advertiser on this board I would be more than willing to strongly support your candidacy.   

Come to think of it, it was the previous Inzane, and I did mention it before - though I don't recall to who, and I may or may not have saved the correspondence. Typically I do save such things, but they can be hard to locate if I need to find them. What with my getting older, seems like the years are starting to run together.  In any case, as I said, I didn't deliberately not support Inzane this year, it's more like I was really busy and the time slipped by, and it had a lower priority for me after the bad presentation I did see.  That one, the gifting was like a joke and we were barely mentioned.  Didn't go over well with the boss, considering it was worth hundreds of dollars at retail.

On the terminology - I'm not a lawyer or a school teacher, so I might not use Webster's approved diction.  I just googled it, and this definition captures my meaning:

"We can define a conflict of interest as a situation in which a person has a private or personal interest sufficient to appear to influence the objective exercise of his or her official duties as, say, a public official, an employee, or a professional."

Source: Chris MacDonald, Michael McDonald, and Wayne Norman, “Charitable Conflicts of Interest”, Journal of Business Ethics 39:1-2, 67-74, August 2002. (p.68)


I thought I made the point, and I really don't want to belabor it here, as I can't expound on it without appearing to be on the attack, which is not my intent.  I appreciate that Gale has built this community, and now you and many others are doing the unpaid work of helping and supporting it.  But perhaps it would be good to remember it is now a community, not just owned by one person or a small body of people, to do as they please, without regard to consequences of actions, to those who depend on the community for their success / living. (Referring now to accolades by Oz years ago - not to anything lately)  Plugs of products by operators of the community's communication medium - this board - that help family members - without disclosing that "this is my son's product I'm bragging about", with performance claims that are questionable at best, at the same time hurt their competition who exist in the same community, and have to pay for advertising, by using their influence to direct business to the family member, and without divulging their personal interest in the results of the influence.  Followed by - in this thread - a review by Chillerman of the competition, pulled without apparent reason other than it conflicts with the interests of the board operator's son.  Doesn't look good, as an argument of impartiality, or a denial of conflict of interest. There, now see, looks like an attack.  Describes my view from here.  Y'all can kick me off of the board, thereby depriving me of access to my community and my customers, because it's YOUR board, so you can do as you please.  But law is evolving in areas like this, to address the new phenomenon of the information age, and virtual communities like this board.  So the board then becomes public property in the law, as it is the only venue of a virtual community, which folks now have the right to access and otherwise "pursue happiness" under the Constitution.

Let me emphasize I haven't seen blatant conflict-of-interest stuff from board management like this recently - other than Chillerman's post disappearing - so this is more stuff I am aware of from the past.

Anyway, this is all interesting stuff, and I would love to follow what's going on in the legal world about it, except I'm busy, don't have time, and especially I hate lawyers as I've never had a dialogue with them in their bailiwick without resultant pain to me.  Though I've had them as customers and they were actually real people as long as we stayed on the subject of bikes.

Don't feel "slighted", that wasn't my intent.  One of the Colorado Inzane dinner gift presentations of my products was bad, from my point of view, and it was likely not yours, and that influenced my priorities in getting gifts for this years Inzane in the mail in time, vs. finishing someone's pipes.

[Gear Jammer]

This is an "unrequested, unpaid customer endorsement and testimonial" from me.  I had Two Brother's pipes on my bike.  They were louder than I (or my wife really) liked, so I started looking.  Dave in FriscoTx told me to look around for Viking pipes.  I had heard the pipes on Dag's video online, and really liked their sound.  But when I did start checking around, I immediately noticed there were none to be found, either used or new.  I read here on the board that the company had gone belly-up and were not making them.  So I contacted Mark.  Told him what I had and what I did not like about them, and told him what I needed for him to do.  He did it, and  I'm extremely pleased with the results.  I've never met the man, but have had a number of email conversations with him.  He's always been up front in his dealings with me, and I'd recommend his pipes to anyone who's looking.                                     

[MP]

Thanks for the info Mark.  Very well put, and well restrained.  I hope it stays here.  Met you at Inzane in CO last summer.  Wish we would have had more time to talk.  I do remember Willow mentioning you when he gave away your prizes.

I also have a set of your pipes you made for me last winter for my 97.  I LOVE THEM!

Am thinking about having you make a second set for my 01 IS with the sidecar.  Cannot use the crossover though.  Sidecar mounts in that area.

MP

[Oldswimr]

These pipes were on my I/S when I bought it. Everyone asks about them when I wind it up. I love 'em, had a few GW'ers complain  of the noise when riding behind me. But they're always behind me. "C'mon fellas. lesgo!!"

[Robert]

Oh this is good stuff keep it up  I smell smoke

[TGViper]

Another happy customer with the MarkT pipes.  Mark treated me like we had known eachother for years.  I trusted him that he would send me quality headers and pipes as I was not sure I would like the sound from stock   AND he trusted me that I would have quality headers and pipes with (39K) on them.  They indeed did look ALMOST new and he stood by his word and delivered quality product. 

VERY satisfied customer in South Dakota - not looking for a debate but I believe that MarkT has integrity to back his word....

TGViper

[HayHauler]

Man, the Valkyrie is ONE BAD A$$ MOTORCYCLE!!!!

Now, back to our regularly scheduled program....

Hay 
Jimmyt

I just love this motorcycle...