Uh-oh, the dreaded HYDRO-LOCK!

[elraque]

 

I think I just suffered the dreaded "hydrolock."

I hit the starter button and it went "spin, click!"

I pulled the plugs and hit the starter again. Fuel all over the garage, but the motor spun. And made a clicking noise... didn't sound right.

Is this something I should try to diagnose and fix myself, or should I take the "thick chick" to a qualified mechanic?

If I take it to a mechanic, about what will it (probably) cost me?

This is the part where I REALLY appreciate all the experience and expertise you guys have and share. 

[Daniel Meyer]

At the least, you've got a petcock to replace/repair, and a carb float valve that is sticking.

I can't help much on the engine without hearing it...there is a chance with the hydrolock to break a tooth on the starter gear...but there's a chance you won't as well. It WILL sound "wrong" without the plugs in it.

Me? I would fix the petcock and carb, change the oil, and see what you've got.

[Robert]

The prices that Ive heard is 1800 around that but before Id get the cold shivers I would turn the engine over one more time with the plugs removed put the plugs back in. Try to start it and see how it sounds, if she does turn over and start without noise then thats a good sign and then I would think after you replace the petcock and fix the floats that your home free. If everything goes south and you have to do the repair depending on your mechanical ability it has to be your call. We can help by talking you through it there are numerous pics around to see what your getting into and the shop manual will also help so you have to make the choice. No its not a beginners job but you dont have to be pit crew to Parnelli Jones either.

[tlanz]

Prior to attempting ANY start I would:
1) Pull the timing cover (just the small one in the center of the timing belt cover), put a wrench on the nut and turn the engine over by hand. Check that each piston is properly moving up & down in its cylinder; use a piece of plastic weed trimmer line to feel the movement.
2) pull the starter to see if it or the flywheel have any broken or missing teeth. if so, extract the broken pieces.
3) at the very least ensure the oil level is correct and little/no fuel has mixed in; if uncertain, change the oil as suggested earlier.

Good luck! I hope you find all is well and simply need a needle/float adjustment & petcock rebuild.

[Patrick]

Well, if you sprayed fuel all over the garage, you now know which float stuck.. Personally I'd run some fuel through the 'stuck' carburetor[ remove that float bowl], install an in-line fuel filter and a Pingle petcock[ and get used to turning it off every time].. While the sparklers are out, hit the starter button and spin the engine over several times and listen for any strange noises.. As long as engine turns over every time you press the button,, I'd run it.. Replacing the starter drive[and possibly the case] is some kind of time consuming and expensive..I also learned long ago to just barely 'tap' the starter button the first time after the bike has sat for awhile..

[RLD]

After mine has sat awhile, I put it in 5th and push it to make sure everthing turns properly. I'm paranoid. I also installed the R&M belly tank to eliminate at least some of the causes of this. Good luck!!

[elraque]

I'll be VERY CAREFULLY making sure that things turn freely, blowing the fuel out of the cylinders, and then VERY CAREFULLY trying to start the engine this evening.

Maybe the Valkyrie gods (Odin and friends, Loki can be excluded) will smile on me. (Loki is, after all, the god of chaos and mischief...)

[elraque]

So last night I verified that the pistons were all moving (and at the same time purged the fuel out of the cylinders again).

Internet was down at home, with all the ramifications and complications that come with that little distraction...

I put the plugs back in, turned the key on, crossed my fingers and tapped the starter button.

It went "CLICK SPIN VROOM!"  This is different from before, when there was no "CLICK" -- it used to just go "SPIN VROOM."

I guess I'll try to pull the starter, unless you guys have some wisdom to offer and somewhere else to look for the undesirable "CLICK" that has been introduced into the starting process...

Anybody have any money saving (and Valk saving) ideas?

[RLD]

Make sure the "click" is actually new. You may just have not noticed it before you became aware of the possible problem. If it's starting fine and running fine, you're probably good to go. If something is indeed broken, you're going to hear a grind or loud crack as the gears slip or connect. Is there another Valk in the area you could listen to?

[Ricky-D]

I think everything is Ok and it's just your imagination playing tricks on you!

I suggest to do nothing and simply wait for your mental image to catch up with reality!

***

[elraque]

Make sure the "click" is actually new. You may just have not noticed it before you became aware of the possible problem. If it's starting fine and running fine, you're probably good to go. If something is indeed broken, you're going to hear a grind or loud crack as the gears slip or connect. Is there another Valk in the area you could listen to?

The click is indeed new, and is pretty loud (more like a "CLACK"). But there is no grinding noise, and the starter seems to engage and disengage properly every time.

And there doesn't seem to be any noise like loose ring gear teeth rolling around in the bottom of the engine or transmission areas... When it starts it runs smooth. I'd say it runs quiet, but my pipes aren't exactly quiet.

There are a couple of Valks in the area, and I just happened to flag one down on the street in front of the house last night (there are no coincidences....  !) His starter has no such "CLICK"or "CLACK" noise (though he had to hold the starter in and mess with the throttle for what seemed to be an inordinate length of time. Mine always starts within 2 or 3 seconds, usually less.   

I guess I'll put the starter bolts and the battery back in and CAREFULLY run it for a few days. I'll keep ya'll posted, especially if there's good news.

[Rocketman]

Primary thing is to make sure it doesn't happen again.  Fix the petcock, or replace it with a Pingel.  Stop the carb from leaking.  Until these are complete, I wouldn't be able to start it without having that nasty feeling in the pit of my stomach that says something bad is about to happen.

As for existing damage:
If you broke off a tooth, or multiple teeth, then there are two ways of determining this.  Both are somewhat random in nature:
If you already have the starter off, you can look in the hole you took the starter out of, at the little gear inside the engine.  If you can see damage, well, that's bad.  If you can't, it may be that the gear isn't turned properly.  I suppose turning the engine (rolling in gear, or via wrench under the timing cover) will rotate the gear, allowing you to see all the teeth.
If the starter is still on, you can infer it from listening while starting.  If you broke off several teeth, and if the broken teeth are aligned with the starter gear, then the starter will free-spin.  Turning the engine will align the good teeth to the starter gear, and allow it to start.  If you only broke off one tooth, it may generate the sound that you're describing.  A clunk as the starter begins to free spin, but then contacts a good tooth.  As you can imagine, the "good" teeth will not last in that configuration.
I think I would probably pull the starter and look.  It's a bit of a pain to get out, though.

Once again, remember that the broken teeth are only symptoms.  Fix the cause before it really burns you.

Mark

[elraque]

New petcock is VERY HIGH on my list of priorities right now!

[Patrick]

its probably just my opinion, but, I happen to think the best safe guard against the dreaded fuel-lock is a fuel filter[and a Pingle].. Any plain ole in-line will do..

[Red Diamond]

its probably just my opinion, but, I happen to think the best safe guard against the dreaded fuel-lock is a fuel filter[and a Pingle].. Any plain ole in-line will do..

I understand your concern for a Pingle, most trust those, but what does an inline filter have to do with hydo-lock? The fuel tank has a filter for fuel going into the petcock, what gives?

[Ricky-D]

its probably just my opinion, but, I happen to think the best safe guard against the dreaded fuel-lock is a fuel filter[and a Pingle].. Any plain ole in-line will do..

I understand your concern for a Pingle, most trust those, but what does an inline filter have to do with hydo-lock? The fuel tank has a filter for fuel going into the petcock, what gives?

You are correct.  The filter is not in the mix!

***

[Patrick]

The filter material is a whole lot finer than the screen in the tank.. Its all the fine grit that gets past the screen that holds open the float valve and maybe, just maybe, the filter will catch it..

[roboto65]

Not bashing the Pingle either but it does not fix a stuck float which also had to happen unless the fuel was in the #6 cylinder!

[Rocketman]

its probably just my opinion, but, I happen to think the best safe guard against the dreaded fuel-lock is a fuel filter[and a Pingle].. Any plain ole in-line will do..

I understand your concern for a Pingle, most trust those, but what does an inline filter have to do with hydo-lock? The fuel tank has a filter for fuel going into the petcock, what gives?

Two failures have to occur for the fuel to leak past the carbs (at present, I'm ignoring the method for fuel to bypass the carbs, flowing through the stock petcock's vacuum line):
1) Petcock must leak fuel while the engine is off.
2) Carb float valve must leak.

#1 is (in my opinion) best fixed by using a Pingel.
#2 can be caused by either a faulty float needle seat, or by crap getting caught there. 
Yes, there is a "filter" in the tank, but it's not a fine enough filter to catch everything.  An inline filter will serve you better.

Mark

[1fastbob]

If the petcock is shut off and working wouldn't there still be fuel in the fuel lines (yes there would be) and wouldn't this be enough fuel to cause a hydrolock (not sure might be)? There is a lot of fuel line between the petcock and the fuel rails at the carb banks. My bike filled the #6 cylinder up shortly after I shut it off to repair a massive fuel leak and my petcock was functioning perfectly.  I knew not to try to spin the starter until I removed the spark plugs. A petcock rebuild or replacement does NOT guarantee that a hydrolock won't occur.  I would think the BIG priority is to repair (clean or replace)the defective needle and seat in the appropriate carb.  Also I think a fuel filter is a great idea to help stop small bits of debris from entering the carb in case the intank fuel screen has a hole in it.

Just my 2 cents.

Bob

[elraque]

Latest update:

I put the thick chick back together (still working on getting all the features of the internet working...) and she started just like always... except for that "CLACK" noise. And there is a little bit of a grind if I listen for it. So I'll be making an appointment with the local (40 miles away) Honda mechanic to see what they say and how much they're gonna wanna charge.

I'm reserving the right to do the fix myself if their price is as astronomical as their (collective) reputation would have me to fear.

In the meantime, I'll be riding and using the starter as little as possible... more riding, less starting -- sounds like a winning combination!

Thanks for all the technical knowledge and support. Ya'll are a great bunch to hang around with... Yer AWESOME!

[Jabba]

If you're gonna ride... try to park uphill so you can roll her started and stay off the starter.

Jabba

[MP]

If you're gonna ride... try to park uphill so you can roll her started and stay off the starter.

Jabba

I think facing downhill would be easier for a push start.  I would hate to push her uphill!

MP

[Patrick]

What, are we back to riding Harleys??!!  Back in the days before self-commencers it was pretty much mandatory that Harley owners live at the top of a hill..    

[Patrick]

OK, just for the record, again.. This had been beat to death over the past 13 years.. There is no guarantee against fuel-lock.. A float valve has to hang open to allow fuel to over-flow into a cylinder..Is a fuel line and a chamber full of fuel enough to cause a fuel-lock,, I think so.. Can an defective petcock add to the problem,, I think so.. My opinion for a possible remedy is the installation of a manual petcock of good quality to remove the #6 vacuum line, the installation of an in-line fuel filter because any plain old filter contains finer filter material than the tank screen.. Since there still is no guarantee against fuel-lock I believe in just 'tapping' the starter button in hope of not hearing the dreaded 'clank' of a fuel-locked cylinder.. Have I mentioned that there is no guarantee against a fuel-lock ?? If you experience a fuel-lock once in your lifetime,, its once too often..Wanna hear a non-valk fuel-lock story??

[Rocketman]

If the petcock is shut off and working wouldn't there still be fuel in the fuel lines (yes there would be) and wouldn't this be enough fuel to cause a hydrolock (not sure might be)? There is a lot of fuel line between the petcock and the fuel rails at the carb banks.

I tried to do the math on this, but was unable to find the critical value, which is "how much fuel is actually required"?  I can only assume that there IS enough fuel in the lines.
However, there is not a mechanism for that fuel to get down to the carb.  If your fuel line is in good shape, with no leaks (which you would know from the amount of fuel dripping from it), then it will act just like a straw with your finger over the top end.  It can't go anywhere, even if the bottom end is open (leaky).
If your fuel line is cracked/leaky at the top, all bets are off, however.
I'm not convinced anyone can tap the starter button lightly enough to prevent a lock from causing damage.  I believe the damage vs. no-damage is determined more by where the filled cylinder is in its stroke than by any action that the operator can take (if he hits the starter button at all).
If you're concerned that you have liquid fuel in a cylinder (a lock), you can verify this by popping it into 5th gear and rolling the bike.  You'll feel the compression of the cylinders, but if there's fuel in there, then it will be somewhere between difficult and impossible to push, instead of just plain tough (try it a few times without fuel in there, and you'll get a feel for "normal").  If you can roll it, then you're good to go.

Mark

[valkyriemc]

OK, just for the record, again.. This had been beat to death over the past 13 years.. There is no guarantee against fuel-lock.. A float valve has to hang open to allow fuel to over-flow into a cylinder..Is a fuel line and a chamber full of fuel enough to cause a fuel-lock,, I think so.. Can an defective petcock add to the problem,, I think so.. My opinion for a possible remedy is the installation of a manual petcock of good quality to remove the #6 vacuum line, the installation of an in-line fuel filter because any plain old filter contains finer filter material than the tank screen.. Since there still is no guarantee against fuel-lock I believe in just 'tapping' the starter button in hope of not hearing the dreaded 'clank' of a fuel-locked cylinder.. Have I mentioned that there is no guarantee against a fuel-lock ?? If you experience a fuel-lock once in your lifetime,, its once too often..Wanna hear a non-valk fuel-lock story??

Exactly. Further its time to yank that tank and clean it out. And get those carbs cleaned and R&R the one thats jacked. And put in the Pingle. You may as well spend the time to do it right. The stealer may or may not get it right, but he wont put in the time to do the tank flush and add a decent filter. If you do it yourself you will know its done right...

[FLAVALK]

Wow! Wish I had a nickle every time this has come up  Thought there would have been a sticky or a segment in Shop Talk regarding failure scenarios and prevention methods by now. Here' mine..

1. Remove and toss the OEM petcock because it is going to fail sooner or later.
2. Purchase and install a manual petcock (Pingel, etc).
3. Install an inline fuel filter and replace it every year or however often you feel necessary.
4. Turn the manual petcock "off" about a mile before ending your daily ride...do it every time. I also turn mine off whenever I stop for any length of time.
5. Tap the starter when you crank the bike for the first time after it has sat for more than several hours. Do it every time.

If you do #1 thru #4, you probably don't have to do #5...but I do... ever time.

[Ricky-D]

In reality hydrolock occurs rarely.

Some may argue but actually the outcry is far greater than the occurrence.

The screen filter that comes with the petcock is adequate to stop anything that will jam up the float needle. If a float sticks, it's not from something that got through the screen but rather something introduced by poor procedure practice when messing with the fuel system.

There may be a lot of leaky float needle assemblies on Valkyries where the riders aren't aware, and the petcock being vacuum operated saves them. I'm not talking about a great flow of gasoline but rather a few drops every minute or so.

Myself, I found the stock petcock did not stop flow when I turned the gasoline off. I went with a Pingle and now I turn it off and on with regularity.  I'm more comfortable with this! The few times I have forgotten to turn it off I didn't experience any problem.

An additional inline filter has caused reports of problems also, maybe even more times than hydrolock! Same goes for the "quick disconnect" which has caused quite a few reports of problems.

Replace a stock petcock with a Pingle, I strongly concur, but adding a inline filter or a "quick disconnect" I say is a waste of money and will just add more basis for problems.

***

[elraque]

And the mechanic says....

The starter clutch mating surfaces have probably damaged each other. Parts, about $350. Labor -- I think he's shopping for his new boat. He says the engine has to come out to remove the rear casing and replace the starter clutch parts.

Comments or suggestions?

He also says that the damage to the clutch is already done and "probably" won't get any worse before winter puts a damper on the riding and the bike repair business gets slow. Said there isn't much likelihood of a subsequent catastrophic failure unless it hydrolocks again. Counseled me to turn the gas off every time I turn the engine off and go ahead and ride. (Implied that I should turn the gas ON if I intend to ride more than a mile or two).

Anybody agree or disagree with the mechanic? Based on this first contact with the wrench dude, should I trust him or run away and find a real "mechanical advocate?"

[Patrick]

I think you have received some good advice from some of the 'mechanical advocates' here..

[elraque]

I think you have received some good advice from some of the 'mechanical advocates' here..

Abso-poso-lut-ive-ly !!!

[FLAVALK]

If it were me, I would go ahead and have it repaired....now. He's right, you MIGHT be able to ride it for a quite awhile before it totally breaks, but you also run the risk of causing further damage and getting stranded somewhere. If you're lucky you haven't damaged the rear case yet. I had a hydrolock occurrence on a previous Valk that I owned and it cost me right at $1300 for repair at an independent shop.

Remember, you still have to solve the cause of the hydrolock. If you don't it could happen again 

[Robert]

I  would pull the starter and look at the gears that mesh with the starter. If you do a little research the typical repair is a tooth missing off #16 gear and maybe the shaft that holds this gear where it is secured in the case sometimes  breaks the shoulder off. You said when you first engage the starter you get a clack does it continue as you crank or do you get the once and that's it. Once the tech maybe right if it continues then bad gear. In any case pretty easy to pull the starter and have a look see. These pics should help to visualize what it looks like inside. The top right gear #16 usually breaks and sometimes the back housing with it. #18 is actually the starter clutch its really a one way gear and that's located top center on the bottom pic. If its really the one way gear then I doubt there will be any problem but if the gear or rear cover broke a piece off then the repair will be necessary. As another idea Pinwall sometimes has whole blocks with transmissions for 100 to 200 dollars and you can pull what you need including the rear case. Plus you still have the rest of the block for parts.

Thanks to Big BF for the great shot below

[Shotgun]

Mine sounded a lot like yours except for a little more banging and grinding.  Here's some of what happened.  Lots of busted teeth on gears and a broken rear case.

[FLAVALK]

Someone (Honda) should have put a shear pin in that starter gear.... I know, 20-20 hind sight.

Did Honda use the same petcock on the 1500 Goldwing?

[FLAVALK]

Shotgun....that's EXACTLY the same damage I had. The same thread boss in the rear case was broken in mine, same gears...everything.

[Mr.BubblesVRCCDS0008]

You could alway just push start it. I did mine that way all the trip home from the hill country when the alt. died.  You get real good at finding gas stations and cafes with sloped drives or parking areas.

[Shotgun]

Flavalk, it even looks like we have the same color bike.  Maybe it's unique to the color....lol.  I'm laughing now but I wasn't when I pulled the motor out to fix it.  I replaced all the "O" rings while I was at it.  My biggest concern was finding every little piece of metal before I put it back together.

[Rocketman]

He also says that the damage to the clutch is already done and "probably" won't get any worse before winter puts a damper on the riding and the bike repair business gets slow. Said there isn't much likelihood of a subsequent catastrophic failure unless it hydrolocks again. Counseled me to turn the gas off every time I turn the engine off and go ahead and ride. (Implied that I should turn the gas ON if I intend to ride more than a mile or two).

Anybody agree or disagree with the mechanic? Based on this first contact with the wrench dude, should I trust him or run away and find a real "mechanical advocate?"

The question is, what are the chances of those broken teeth being picked up by the oil pump and thrown into something more important?  I think that it won't, but will defer to another's opinion here.  If that isn't possible, then there isn't much other damage that can occur, unless you hydrolock again.  Worst case, you break a couple more teeth off of a gear that is already toast, and she won't start with the magic button, and you have to push start it.

That being said, fix the cause NOW, before it locks again.  That's the really urgent thing.  Fix the symptom (broken gear) as well before it leaves you huffing and puffing pushing a big motorcycle.