Million dollar speeding ticket?!

[Jess from VA]

Socialism at work.  (Spit!)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-10960230

[x]

Why?

[Chrisj CMA]

Why?

because the fine is determined by the wealth of the driver......more of that pesky wealth re-distribution stuff......Socialism is known for making everyone be mediocre.............punish them that succeed....reward lazy farts that vote for the socialists.   Stick around here......in America we will be doing more and more things like that......stay tuned

[Cliff]

Why?

because the fine is determined by the wealth of the driver......more of that pesky wealth re-distribution stuff......Socialism is known for making everyone be mediocre.............punish them that succeed....reward lazy farts that vote for the socialists.   Stick around here......in America we will be doing more and more things like that......stay tuned

It also serves to stop the wealthy from speeding with abandon, if the fines were menial they would have no reason not to do it over and over.

[vanagon40]

Although in some instances it may occur, as a general rule, the wealthy may not speed with impunity.  As a general rule, each speeding ticket adds "points" to the speeder's license, and a after so many "points" or convictions, the speeder's license is suspended.  Driving while suspended escalates the points and suspensions, eventually resulting in criminal charges and jail sentences.

Even the filthy rich may not drive "with abandon."  Ironically, the people who prosecute the traffic tickets are usually the lower level prosecutors and attorneys who are less susceptible to influence by the rich and famous.  In fact, at that level, the lower level prosecutors and attorneys tend to pride themselves in providing equal justice to all the defendants charged with infractions or minor criminal offenses.

[Jess from VA]

Excellent points Vanagon!!

A million dollar speeding ticket is government theft.  They already took his car.  No one was hurt.  He's a Sweede..... I'd go home and tell Switzerland to pee up a rope.  Unless the socialists extradite for speeding tickets (which I wouldn't put past the scum).

[x]

Excellent points Vanagon!!

A million dollar speeding ticket is government theft.  They already took his car.  No one was hurt.  He's a Sweede..... I'd go home and tell Switzerland to pee up a rope.  Unless the socialists extradite for speeding tickets (which I wouldn't put past the scum).

You have missed the point.  A $1000 speeding ticket seriously hurts the average dude in Texas... and you can get a $1000 fine in Texas.  It means nothing to the super rich.

So what exactly is wrong with making a fine painful based upon your wealth?  You folks seem to think that it's OK to hurt the little guy with a heavy fine but the rich guys get off.  Sounds like bullsh*t to me.

[MP]

The point is, the "points".

Rich, not rich, get 12 or so "points", and you lose your license.  How much money you have does not matter.  To most people, losing your license is the real penalty.

So, the "rich" cannot really "flaunt" the law.

Also, seems like liberals are always talking about " equal protection" to advance their cause.  $1,000,000 for one person, $1,000 for the next, for the EXACT same crime, sure does NOT sound EQUAL to me!

MP

[Serk]

You have missed the point.  A $1000 big screen TV seriously hurts the average dude in Texas... and you can get a $1000 big screen TV in Texas.  It means nothing to the super rich.

So what exactly is wrong with making a big screen TV more expensive based upon your wealth?  You folks seem to think that it's OK to hurt the little guy with a heavy price but the rich guys get off.  Sounds like bullsh*t to me.

(Edited to make a point)

So then, if we're gonna equalize things, where do we draw the line?

[JimL]

Guys as much as I hate to do it....I have to agree with SE on this one (I'll make sure and go to communion an extra time this week in an attempt to get forgiveness for this sin).  This differs from the progressive income tax argument (which I agree with you guys on).  The whole idea of a fine is to serve as a punishment and hopefully change someone's behavior that benefits society (and in this case possibly save someones life).  

If the amount that Bill Gates gets fined for a speeding ticket is the same as you or I, then that results absolutely no incentive on his part to stop this potentially deadly practice.  He could pay this fine 100 times a day for the rest of his life and it would not decrease his current level of wealth.  Of course this argument ignores the fact that in real life someone license would be taken and they would end up in jail (providing they are not a Hollywood celebrity).

In this case, the only way to persuade a wealthy person to change their potentially deadly behavior (when the only punishment is monetary), is to make the fine the same percentage of their wealth as the rest of society.

[big turkey]

If I was Millionaire, who got that ticket, I would probably have the Cop bumped off.

He can afford it.

Same primice as giving the wealthy bigger tickets.

Then the cops would think twice before giving a rich basxxxd a ticket.

Socialism works,,,,,,,, until you run out of other peoples money.  ----------Margaret Thatcher.




Or Frame the Dam thing and put it over the fire place.

Great conversation peice.

Big AL

[Jess from VA]

You have missed the point. 

No, it's you who's missed the point.   A million dollar speeding ticket is beyond the pale and just another example of rampant, heavy-handed government socialism at work.

The point is that socialism is wrong and evil.  It poses a much greater threat to the American way of life and American personal freedom and liberty than all the problems of the Middle East combined.  I took an oath to protect my country against all enemies foreign and domestic, and domestic (and perhaps expat) socialists are the greatest enemies to my country extant.

[Chrisj CMA]

You have missed the point. 

No, it's you who's missed the point.   A million dollar speeding ticket is beyond the pale and just another example of rampant, heavy-handed government socialism at work.

The point is that socialism is wrong and evil.  It poses a much greater threat to the American way of life and American personal freedom and liberty than all the problems of the Middle East combined.  I took an oath to protect my country against all enemies foreign and domestic, and domestic (and perhaps expat) socialists are the greatest enemies to my country extant.

+1 Jess........and also the premise that a rich guy could pay 100/day....no he cant........points, lose license....jail......thats behavior modification, not wealth redistribution

[big turkey]

+2 Jess,

Socialism

It is evil beyond all comprehension.

Takes the natural ingenuity of a man and says so what if you can do it

cheaper and better and make a way of life that is the best in all of the World.

Let's do it the Government way, where waste fraud and abuse is the norm.

The freedom of the USA>is a beacon of light compared to the quaigmire of Socialism.

Wake up America before you are enslaved.

Big Al

[Lil D]

+jess - 
'nuff said

[PAVALKER]

Guys as much as I hate to do it....I have to agree with SE on this one (I'll make sure and go to communion an extra time this week in an attempt to get forgiveness for this sin).  This differs from the progressive income tax argument (which I agree with you guys on).  The whole idea of a fine is to serve as a punishment and hopefully change someone's behavior that benefits society (and in this case possibly save someones life).  

If the amount that Bill Gates gets fined for a speeding ticket is the same as you or I, then that results absolutely no incentive on his part to stop this potentially deadly practice.  He could pay this fine 100 times a day for the rest of his life and it would not decrease his current level of wealth.  Of course this argument ignores the fact that in real life someone license would be taken and they would end up in jail (providing they are not a Hollywood celebrity).

In this case, the only way to persuade a wealthy person to change their potentially deadly behavior (when the only punishment is monetary), is to make the fine the same percentage of their wealth as the rest of society.

I think you meant "confession".... so you can confess your sins and receive your penance.  And, like fines meant to change behavior.... you should say 12 Our Father's, 12 Hail Mary's and about 13 Aw craps....     

[valkmc]

Although in some instances it may occur, as a general rule, the wealthy may not speed with impunity.  As a general rule, each speeding ticket adds "points" to the speeder's license, and a after so many "points" or convictions, the speeder's license is suspended.  Driving while suspended escalates the points and suspensions, eventually resulting in criminal charges and jail sentences.

Even the filthy rich may not drive "with abandon."  Ironically, the people who prosecute the traffic tickets are usually the lower level prosecutors and attorneys who are less susceptible to influence by the rich and famous.  In fact, at that level, the lower level prosecutors and attorneys tend to pride themselves in providing equal justice to all the defendants charged with infractions or minor criminal offenses.

I don't agree with income based fines....but if anyone doen't believe  $ effects the penalties citizens get for crimes in the US they haven't been involved in our criminal justice system. Rich folks seldom get the same penalities as poor folks in our system.

[Daniel Meyer]

I would make the arguement that the income based fines give the authorities incentive to target the rich and ignore the poor...so they do nothing to "discourage equally" people from speeding.

The are in fact, discriminatory...

The poor could speed with impunity because there is no incentive for the authortiies to target them (they'll be too busy pulling over the rich dudes).

As far as Bill Gates having no incentive to obey the law due to the "low" fine he'd get here in Texas...horse-hockey. He is subject to the same court system and escalation that I am. If he speeds with impunity he will eventually end up in jail, or fighting ever more expensive battles in the court system. And if he gets deep into that escalation he has SO much more to lose than I do...

Doesn't a Sammy Hager tune come to mind about now?

[JimL]

I would make the arguement that the income based fines give the authorities incentive to target the rich and ignore the poor...so they do nothing to "discourage equally" people from speeding.

The are in fact, discriminatory...

The poor could speed with impunity because there is no incentive for the authortiies to target them (they'll be too busy pulling over the rich dudes).

As far as Bill Gates having no incentive to obey the law due to the "low" fine he'd get here in Texas...horse-hockey. He is subject to the same court system and escalation that I am. If he speeds with impunity he will eventually end up in jail, or fighting ever more expensive battles in the court system. And if he gets deep into that escalation he has SO much more to lose than I do...

Doesn't a Sammy Hager tune come to mind about now?

Daniel you make an excellent point.  I suppose there would be cases where the authorities would (by default) let the less affluent speed with impunity.  I am assuming that the authorities would use the type of vehicle being driven as the "litmus" test for wealth (however my wealthy cousin would then speed with impunity because he drives a Ford F250)!

The simple reality is that any system of justice can be defeated by corruption, and the point you made would be a good example.  When crafting laws to mete out justice, there has to be a basic premise that those charged with enforcement will do so fairly....even though I think it is pretty obvious that the justice handed down to members of Congress, presidential cabinet members and even Hollywood celebrities tends to be much more lenient than what is handed down to the average citizen.

In my earlier post I conceded the fact that someone like Bill Gates "theoretically" would lose their license or end up in jail should they contine to break the law.  The reason that I am not opposed to basiing fines on a percentage of income is because I feel that this is the same model that the income tax system should be based.  I pay 15% of my income in taxes.....you pay 15% of your income in taxes.  If I speed I will pay X% of my income as a fine, if you speed you pay X% of your income as a fine.

(In theory) no discrimination, no favoritism....everyone is punished by an equal percentage.

[Daniel Meyer]

(In theory) no discrimination, no favoritism....everyone is punished by an equal percentage.

Ah, but then what about "non-fine" offenses. Should I get less time in jail for murder for instance, because I make more than somebody else? My time and what I have to lose are worth more...so I should get out sooner yes? Same percentage of punishment?

Not so clear cut.

[PhredValk]

The Mercedes bunch have it good here. 95% of speeding is enforced by photo-radar. Same with all of the amber/red light enforcement. Monetary fines but no points, cause the photo can't identify who is driving the vehicle. Fines go to the 'owner of a vehicle involved in a traffic violation'.
Fred.

[Charlie]

I would make the arguement that the income based fines give the authorities incentive to target the rich and ignore the poor...so they do nothing to "discourage equally" people from speeding.

The are in fact, discriminatory...

The poor could speed with impunity because there is no incentive for the authortiies to target them (they'll be too busy pulling over the rich dudes).

As far as Bill Gates having no incentive to obey the law due to the "low" fine he'd get here in Texas...horse-hockey. He is subject to the same court system and escalation that I am. If he speeds with impunity he will eventually end up in jail, or fighting ever more expensive battles in the court system. And if he gets deep into that escalation he has SO much more to lose than I do...

Doesn't a Sammy Hager tune come to mind about now?

Daniel you make an excellent point.  I suppose there would be cases where the authorities would (by default) let the less affluent speed with impunity.  I am assuming that the authorities would use the type of vehicle being driven as the "litmus" test for wealth (however my wealthy cousin would then speed with impunity because he drives a Ford F250)!

The simple reality is that any system of justice can be defeated by corruption, and the point you made would be a good example.  When crafting laws to mete out justice, there has to be a basic premise that those charged with enforcement will do so fairly....even though I think it is pretty obvious that the justice handed down to members of Congress, presidential cabinet members and even Hollywood celebrities tends to be much more lenient than what is handed down to the average citizen.

In my earlier post I conceded the fact that someone like Bill Gates "theoretically" would lose their license or end up in jail should they contine to break the law.  The reason that I am not opposed to basiing fines on a percentage of income is because I feel that this is the same model that the income tax system should be based.  I pay 15% of my income in taxes.....you pay 15% of your income in taxes.  If I speed I will pay X% of my income as a fine, if you speed you pay X% of your income as a fine.

(In theory) no discrimination, no favoritism....everyone is punished by an equal percentage.

I believe Jims reasoning is right on the mark. 

You do not want to wait until a wealthy individual causes a fatal accident and kills an innocent under ticket number 2, 3, or whatever, on his way to loosing his license, any more than waiting for a poor individual to do the same thing.  The fine has to hurt to make a difference.

I think those who are saying this is wrong are confusing punishment for wrong doing with socialism, and there is no corrolation between the two.

[3fan4life]

It also serves to stop the wealthy from speeding with abandon, if the fines were menial they would have no reason not to do it over and over.

Wouldn't a very REAL threat of jailtime for such an offense also be effective?

It might be an even more effective deterrent upon those who have more money than sense.

[valkmc]

(In theory) no discrimination, no favoritism....everyone is punished by an equal percentage.

Ah, but then what about "non-fine" offenses. Should I get less time in jail for murder for instance, because I make more than somebody else? My time and what I have to lose are worth more...so I should get out sooner yes? Same percentage of punishment?

Not so clear cut.

Right on, our system runs on money, if you can afford 4-5 high priced lawyers to defend you against murder, etc. you will have a different outcome than an average citizen who will most likely not even recieve a trial. A lone lawyer will get you a plea bargain and you will recieve a lessor sentence. What is fair becomes very difficult to figure out when money, lawyers, and crimes are involved.  With all that said I still do not favor income based fines, the whole idea seems unfair.

[alph]

What reason does a person use for going so fast on the road anyway?  What if a deer ran out in front of him, he tries to swerve to miss it, then hits a minivan killing an entire family.  Now what’s his ticket going to be?  The fact of the matter is that the best way to teach him a lesson is to hit him were it hurts, and in this case it's his pocket book.  I kind of like the idea.  A poor person couldn't afford a vehicle that could go that fast, so they couldn't get that kind of ticket, and if a rich person is that irresponsible with daddy's car, then maybe that ticket will teach him a lesson. 

A civilized race needs to abide by the laws, without them we are all anarchists.  Call this ticket socialist? I’d rather have socialism then anarchy!! 

I don’t understand how some of you can complain about a guy getting a speeding ticket, but yet that same ticket might have saved someone else’s life.  Face it, the guy was driving recklessly, and might have ended up rear ending a guy on a cycle……

[Cliff]

It also serves to stop the wealthy from speeding with abandon, if the fines were menial they would have no reason not to do it over and over.

Wouldn't a very REAL threat of jailtime for such an offense also be effective?

It might be an even more effective deterrent upon those who have more money than sense.

That might work if they were sent to the same jail your or I would go to.

[JimL]

(In theory) no discrimination, no favoritism....everyone is punished by an equal percentage.

Ah, but then what about "non-fine" offenses. Should I get less time in jail for murder for instance, because I make more than somebody else? My time and what I have to lose are worth more...so I should get out sooner yes? Same percentage of punishment?

Not so clear cut.

Daniel I don't mean to disrespect you because I do consider you an intelligent person.  However that tortured scenario did not make much sense to me!

Maybe if I have a couple of "Dos XX's" during lunch I will become enlightened!