Clutch question

[n5odj]

Howdy.  Got a problem & hoping it's easy to fix.  I've read through older posts & have some ideas, but want to ask specifically.  First, FYI, the bike has 40k miles on it.

My 1998 Valkyrie acts like the clutch won't fully engage.  When I pull the lever, there's still power to the rear wheel.  When the bike is on the ground, the bike will hold still, but when it's up on the centerstand, the rear wheel will keep spinning even when I pull the lever (bike in gear).  I can't stop it from turning with my hands or foot.  Also, when the bike is rolling (when I'm riding), if it's in gear & I pull the lever, I can feel a very slight surge of "go" when I hit the gas.  Shifting is difficult & finding neutral while engine is running is really tough.  So obviously the clutch is not fully engaging.  Question is "Why?".

The clutch lever will not go all the way to the bar like it is supposed to.  I bled the clutch fluid thoroughly & the lever WILL go down to the bar when bleeding, but not when the bleeder tit is closed for normal operation.

I've got a new lever & bushings ordered and I hope that'll fix it.  I really hope I don't have to get into the actual clutch.  I'm pretty handy with a wrench, but that intimidates me, especially since I don't have a lift.

Robert in the hills of Tennessee 

[sandy]

You're doing the right things first. If all that fails, you probably have bad rivets in your damper plate in the clutch. The '97 & '98 Valks had damper plates made by a subcontractor who had weak rivets. A few of them are failing. You may need a whole new clutch. It's doable in a home garage with a lift and some special tools.

[n5odj]

Keeping my fingers crossed.  My clutch lever does have a lot of "play" up & down, indicating worn bushings.   If I do have to replace that damper plate, I'll just have to do it.  I'll be darned if I'm gonna pay a mechanic $1400 to do it.

Just how much does a lift cost anyway?  Where does one buy them?

Robert

[fstsix]

I got a couple of them, Sears had them at one time for 89.00 bucks.

[Ricky-D]

Hey, it's premature to talk like that yet.

Just go ahead and get the lever 100% and see what that yields.

And I also would suggest you bleed the clutch again.

Might be all you need to do!

***

[iliveforcurves]

n5odj, what you're describing is a clutch that isn't DISengaging.  If it wasn't engaging fully you would experience clutch slipping, most noticably in 5th gear.  Do what Ricky-D said, try the simple things first.  It might just need bleeding.  Hope it's an easy fix.

[six2go #152]

I hate to be the one to pi$$ in your cornflakes but those are the exact same symptoms my clutch displayed. The rivets had self destructed so I had a whole new clutch assembly put in. I guess it can be done in your garage, but I'm at the point in life where I no longer enjoy crawling around on the floor of the garage so I had my trustworthy dealer do the job. It's been like new since then.

[valkmc]

Your rivets are gone, my 98 had the same problem with 65000 miles on it. This is the first time I heard about bad rivets on the 98.  Once they are gone you can not pull the lever in all they way and it gets hard to find neutral. Job is not to bad, I would break her down before ordering parts. You may not need all that much or you may need a new basket depending on what the damage is to it. One good thing mine started acting up while I was in Detroit and I rode her back to Florida with out much further damage. The whole rivet and the plate they are in seems to be a sorry set up to me. I thought about having a solid plate made to specs  with out the rivets and I may if I ever have to tear it apart again.

[Valkpilot]

Hey, it's premature to talk like that yet.

Just go ahead and get the lever 100% and see what that yields.

And I also would suggest you bleed the clutch again.

Might be all you need to do!

***

Ricky-D, I'm having the same symptoms as the others in this thread, but mine are intermittent so far.  New clutch lever, new bushings, re-bled the clutch.  When the clutch lever won't pull all the way in, I have a very slight shuddering at take off in first, but all subsequent shifting is good.  Neutral is sometimes hard to find, too.

It's a 1998 Standard with 62,000 miles on it, which seems to be the sweet spot for rivet failures.  What are the chances this is all that's wrong?

[valkmc]

Hey, it's premature to talk like that yet.

Just go ahead and get the lever 100% and see what that yields.

And I also would suggest you bleed the clutch again.

Might be all you need to do!

***

Ricky-D, I'm having the same symptoms as the others in this thread, but mine are intermittent so far.  New clutch lever, new bushings, re-bled the clutch.  When the clutch lever won't pull all the way in, I have a very slight shuddering at take off in first, but all subsequent shifting is good.  Neutral is sometimes hard to find, too.

It's a 1998 Standard with 62,000 miles on it, which seems to be the sweet spot for rivet failures.  What are the chances this is all that's wrong?

Your rivets are most likely gone also, the first thing I noticed was the shudder in first gear, the good thing is I did not do any damage to it by riding it, when I tore it down the only damage was the rivets and the plate they were in.

[Tropic traveler]

I'm a bit more optimistic. I think it is your bushing.
Same symptoms on my '97 albeit at twice the mileage of your bike, it was the bushing & lever .
I'm hopin' for ya!

[n5odj]

I'll sure let everyone know how it goes.  The lever/bushings will be here any day, so I'll know then.

Tropic, that is one gorgeous bike ya' got there.

  Robert

[n5odj]

Looking at the repair manual, I have a question.  It says to unstake the big nut before removing it.  If I use an air impact wrench, will it "unstake" itself, or do I still need to unstake it? 

Also, is one of the reasons for using an air impact wrench so I don't have to use that holder plate tool?  Could I just use a breaker bar & stick a rod or large screwdriver into the mechanism to keep it from turning while I turn the big nut?  Or is that a dumb idea?

  Robert

[n5odj]

At the following URL, is part #2 the entire center clutch assembly, including all discs, plates, and dampener plate?  If so, for that price of $82.23, reckon I'll just replace the whole inner assembly.  The combined price of the separate parts is over $200.  Or is it a separate piece altogether that I'm just not understanding?

http://www.hdlparts.com/fiche_section_detail.asp?section=148070&category=MOTORCYCLES&make=HONDA&year=1998&fveh=3466

BTW, thank ya'll for being patient with me.  I'm learning.

RTL

[Ricky-D]

Nope!

There's no packaging in that frame.

Price is each and pay attention to quantities.

***

[n5odj]

I said I'd update, so here goes.  I replaced the clutch lever & bushings.  It did help the situation & now the lever will go all the way to the bar.  Still trouble rough shifting & finding neutral while the engine is running, so I'll go ahead & tear into the clutch.  Guarantee I'll be back with questions.

Robert

[Ricky-D]

I said I'd update, so here goes.  I replaced the clutch lever & bushings.  It did help the situation & now the lever will go all the way to the bar.  Still trouble rough shifting & finding neutral while the engine is running, so I'll go ahead & tear into the clutch.  Guarantee I'll be back with questions.

Robert

Simply because the motor is running or not running is not a precondition for easy or smooth shifting or hard ans troubled shifting.  The only part closely related to the transmission is the clutch and it is not turning anything in the transmission while the lever is depressed.  So the idea you espouse regarding shifting is only partially accurate.

You have not said anything about bleeding the clutch again. I think that should be done now the lever is fully functional.

Also since the lever is fully functional you should consider there is not that (mentioned) problem of the rivets in the clutch.

If you are just wanting to mess with things and such, as take apart and reassemble parts then go ahead and have at it, I think it's a waste of time especially since the clutch is now working again.

Like I said earlier.

Bleed the clutch.

***

[n5odj]

Ricky-D, I took your advice & re-bled the clutch tonight.  No relief.  The clutch is still not fully disengaging, even though the lever is behaving properly.  I do appreciate your input.

Robert

[Jeff K]

Ricky-D, I took your advice & re-bled the clutch tonight.  No relief.  The clutch is still not fully disengaging, even though the lever is behaving properly.  I do appreciate your input.
Robert

The part you need is #6 PLATE B, CLUTCH
22322-MZ0-000

Unless your clutch has severe wear the friction disks and plates should be ok.
If it were me I'd head in that direction

[n5odj]

Quote "The part you need is #6 PLATE B, CLUTCH
22322-MZ0-000
Unless your clutch has severe wear the friction disks and plates should be ok.
If it were me I'd head in that direction"

Thank you.  I have one en-route, plus a new spring just for good measure.

Robert

[Ricky-D]

Ok, but I still think it's a bit premature to tear into the clutch yet.

How does the lever feel.

I mean can you feel the clutch spring the whole distance of the travel or is there a soft feeling for the first part of the travel?  Does it feel like you have any "free play"? That's what I am getting at!

A hydraulic clutch is a lot more difficult to feel for clutch problems I admit than if it were a cable operated clutch.

There are no torque forces impacting that Plate/spring assembly and that is not a part that wears out normally. This is why I would exhaust every diagnosis before tearing into the motor.

The slave piston assembly is located on the back of the clutch and easily accessible and I would seriously look at that first as being the problem.

Are you the original owner of the bike?

***

[Valkpilot]

There are no torque forces impacting that Plate/spring assembly and that is not a part that wears out normally. This is why I would exhaust every diagnosis before tearing into the motor.

Ricky-D, as I note above, I've got similar symptoms.  Reading through the Tech Board postings, some have commented that the 97 and 98 models (ours qualify) are subject to failing rivets in the plate/spring assembly.  It seems that 60k miles is sort of a magic mileage for this failure (again, ours qualify.) 
I'm concerned, again due to what I've read, that there will not be a gradual worsening of the problem, but instead sudden and complete failure.  After a recent experience, I don't want to be stranded again.

Is this info incorrect?

The slave piston assembly is located on the back of the clutch and easily accessible and I would seriously look at that first as being the problem.
***

What should we look for, i.e., what would be wrong with the slave assembly that would cause this problem?

[Jeff K]

IF it is the rivets in the damper plate they can jamb and cut into the outer basket, cutting through it. I've seen a couple of them do that.

[valkmc]

If you have a 98 with 40,000 miles or more and your clutch handle won't pull in, you can try the bushing and such but the rivets go and you can not pull the handle all the way in. It makes it difficult to find nuetral (my first symptom) and then shifting starts to get difficult. I would fix it before it does damage to the clutch basket which will cost you. I spent around $200 doing mine and it now shifts great.

[Ricky-D]

Well the discussion is about the clutch not disengaging properly.

Since the clutch is hydraulically activated I believe thoroughly investigating the hydraulic part and operation is first in order.

A new lever solved the original problem of not being able to fully depress the lever to the handlebars.

Now the problem of poor shifting.

Sometimes my bike shifts poorly and I know there is no problem with my clutch. It's me!!! Constant mesh transmission are a different kind of beast and learning how to ride and work with them is a never ending need to keep abreast of what's going on with my riding/shifting/speed co-ordination.

That said I think the next natural thing to look at would be the slave unit on the back of the motor/clutch. Since it is the final part of the hydraulic clutch system I would prefer the problem lay there rather than inside the motor. So inspection is called for. The push rod lubrication has been a reported problem also.

I think a leak down test might be a good thing to do with the hydraulic clutch system.

Some of the questions I raised were not answered but no matter, I would still suggest a studied approach.

I can't recall reading about any sudden catastrophic failures but don't deny that is a possibility. In any case I would think that the loss of clutch disengagement, which is what would be the result of a failure, would still allow a way to get home without destroying the bike. Carefully stated however!

***

[n5odj]

Ricky-D, I have to remove the slave cylinder to get to the clutch anyway, so I will certainly check it out.  I've started on this project this morning.  So far, haven't gotten very far.  It's got a center stand & I'm having to wrestle to get it off, before I can even get to the master cylinder/clutch.  Now that I have the bike lift, I think I'll just leave off the centerstand when I re-assemble.

Robert

[n5odj]

Well, this whole thing is on hold until I can take the Valk to a shop.  The bolt holding the sidestand (nearest the left side of bike) is frozen solid.  I've managed to round off the head of the bolt & there's not a lot of working room in there.  There is no nut on the bottom end because it's got a centerstand in place of the nut. 

So, I'm just gonna bite the bullet & let the pros handle that stuck bolt.  Then I'll get into the clutch.

Robert

[Valkpilot]

Well the discussion is about the clutch not disengaging properly.

Since the clutch is hydraulically activated I believe thoroughly investigating the hydraulic part and operation is first in order.

A new lever solved the original problem of not being able to fully depress the lever to the handlebars.

Now the problem of poor shifting.

Sometimes my bike shifts poorly and I know there is no problem with my clutch. It's me!!! Constant mesh transmission are a different kind of beast and learning how to ride and work with them is a never ending need to keep abreast of what's going on with my riding/shifting/speed co-ordination.

That said I think the next natural thing to look at would be the slave unit on the back of the motor/clutch. Since it is the final part of the hydraulic clutch system I would prefer the problem lay there rather than inside the motor. So inspection is called for. The push rod lubrication has been a reported problem also.

I think a leak down test might be a good thing to do with the hydraulic clutch system.

Some of the questions I raised were not answered but no matter, I would still suggest a studied approach.

I can't recall reading about any sudden catastrophic failures but don't deny that is a possibility. In any case I would think that the loss of clutch disengagement, which is what would be the result of a failure, would still allow a way to get home without destroying the bike. Carefully stated however!

***

Replacing the clutch lever, bushing, and bleeding the system did not work.  Hitherto reported improvements were both temporary and intermittent.

Today, Dave in Frisco and I replaced the plate stack inside the clutch.  The damper plate was indeed failing and several of the rivets had disintegrated.  Fortunately, I intervened early enough that more did not come apart and the sides of my inner and outer baskets were not scored or damaged.

I took the easy way out.  We pulled the clutch cover, yanked out the plate stack, and took it and the new parts to the dealer.  They took out the old parts and put in the new for nothing.  Nada. Gratis.  A big thumbs up to Cycle Center of Denton, TX.

[valkmc]

Glad you got it fixed Valkpilot, I did mine the same except once the shop removed the spring I replaced the plates and they put the spring back on for me.

Sad set up, no one seems to know why the plate with the rivets is there and what purpose it serves. I know of several (more than 10) who have faced the same problem, most around 50 or 60k. Good thing is it is really easy to work on.

[Jeff K]

Glad you got it fixed Valkpilot, I did mine the same except once the shop removed the spring I replaced the plates and they put the spring back on for me.

Sad set up, no one seems to know why the plate with the rivets is there and what purpose it serves. I know of several (more than 10) who have faced the same problem, most around 50 or 60k. Good thing is it is really easy to work on.

The damper plate is not a mystery. It serves a purpose. It is the same as the springs on a pressure plate on a automotive clutch. It "dampens" the grab of the clutch. If it were solid, which you can do, it has a lot less forgiveness when engaging the clutch. It is a sudden grab. I worked on a blower bike that had the damper plate replaced with solid and fiber disks to match the thickness of the damper plate. It was entirely drivable, but it was noticeable,  it was a bit hard to load into his truck because it is hard to feather the clutch without the damper plate.
I've never had one go bad, but I've blown a clutch or two, screwing around. 

[Valkpilot]

Replacing the clutch lever, bushing, and bleeding the system did not work.  Hitherto reported improvements were both temporary and intermittent.

Today, Dave in Frisco and I replaced the plate stack inside the clutch.  The damper plate was indeed failing and several of the rivets had disintegrated.  Fortunately, I intervened early enough that more did not come apart and the sides of my inner and outer baskets were not scored or damaged.

I took the easy way out.  We pulled the clutch cover, yanked out the plate stack, and took it and the new parts to the dealer.  They took out the old parts and put in the new for nothing.  Nada. Gratis.  A big thumbs up to Cycle Center of Denton, TX.

Additional details and pics here: http://www.valkyrieforum.com/bbs/index.php/topic,20870.0.html

[asfltdncr]

I know this sounds far-fetched but to some extent, the type of engine oil does play a part in how your clutch operates.  I normally use synthetic or syn blend motorcycle oil like many of the members have recommended.  Anyway, I put some automotive 10-40 in over the winter and before I changed to my oil, my clutch got real grabby as in no "friction zone" and that made the clutch more difficult to operate without an occasional chatter.  Changed oil-all better.

[Valkpilot]

I know this sounds far-fetched but to some extent, the type of engine oil does play a part in how your clutch operates.  I normally use synthetic or syn blend motorcycle oil like many of the members have recommended.  Anyway, I put some automotive 10-40 in over the winter and before I changed to my oil, my clutch got real grabby as in no "friction zone" and that made the clutch more difficult to operate without an occasional chatter.  Changed oil-all better.

My bike has never had anything but Mobile 1 15-50 or Amsoil non-energy conserving synthetic oil since I got it at 4870 miles.  It has never had oil in it with the friction modifiers that energy conserving automotive oil contains.  Standard auto oil, dino or sythetic, will mess up your clutch.

[valkmc]

I have owned bikes for 30 plus years and have had one clutch problem, on my 98 valk. The problem had to do with crappy revits not oil. All of my bikes have had nothing but auto oil. I do use good oil, but it is still auto oil. Again never a clutch problem on a bike until this bike and I am talking lots of miles. I sometimes think of the $ saved by buying oil at $4 per quart vs the $11 per quart charged by my dealer. 30 years and many oil changes I could have bought a good used valk with the savings.

[Valkpilot]

I have owned bikes for 30 plus years and have had one clutch problem, on my 98 valk. The problem had to do with crappy revits not oil. All of my bikes have had nothing but auto oil. I do use good oil, but it is still auto oil. Again never a clutch problem on a bike until this bike and I am talking lots of miles. I sometimes think of the $ saved by buying oil at $4 per quart vs the $11 per quart charged by my dealer. 30 years and many oil changes I could have bought a good used valk with the savings.

Interesting.

It's pretty uniformly accepted across many forums for metric bikes that wet clutches do not perform well with energy-conserving auto oil.  Most report problems that can correct themselves when switching back to an oil without friction modifiers.

Question: is the auto oil you use non-energy conserving, in other words, is the bottom half of the API 'donut' on the back label empty?  If so, the lack of problems is consistent with others' experience.  If it contains the words 'Energy Convserving', then your experience seems to differ from many.

[valkmc]

No, I do not use oil with the energy conserving label. That is on this bike which I have owned since 1998, prior to that through out the 70s and 80s I never checked. I am not sure there was such a thing back then. My valk has Mobil Diesel  in it now because I wanted to try a heavier oil. My friend who helps me with the bike and is a mechanic who rebuilds engines in large trucks like garbage trucks, dump trucks etc and has also owned bikes since we began riding together in the 70s suggested it. It is what he uses. Like I stated earlier constant bike ownership since 1976. I have used mostly auto oil although in the valk for the first few changes I used Honda syn oil. The only bike I have had any clutch problems with is the valk at 65k and it had nothing to do with oil.

[Valkpilot]

No, I do not use oil with the energy conserving label. That is on this bike which I have owned since 1998, prior to that through out the 70s and 80s I never checked. I am not sure there was such a thing back then. My valk has Mobil Diesel  in it now because I wanted to try a heavier oil. My friend who helps me with the bike and is a mechanic who rebuilds engines in large trucks like garbage trucks, dump trucks etc and has also owned bikes since we began riding together in the 70s suggested it. It is what he uses. Like I stated earlier constant bike ownership since 1976. I have used mostly auto oil although in the valk for the first few changes I used Honda syn oil. The only bike I have had any clutch problems with is the valk at 65k and it had nothing to do with oil.

We're on the same page then. 

When I said "standard auto oil", I meant "energy-conserving auto oil".  I should have been more clear.  It's "energy-conserving" oils that will cause clutch problems.

Sorry for the misunderstanding.

[valkmc]

no problem, it was the people on this board that alerted me to the whole energy conserving problem and most likely saved me problems.

[n5odj]

Howdy.  Original poster here.   

I finally got my bike back from Jim's Motorcycles in Johnson City, TN.  It took them 3 weeks and way too much money to remove that frozen side-stand bolt & replace it with a new one.  Well, I had to do that before I could even get to the clutch.  FWIW, I don't think I'll ever go back to Jim's.  Yeah, they did the job that I couldn't do, but too much $$$$$.

It is indeed the rivets.  Imagine that.  I've got it all apart & dropped off the inner clutch assembly at a local shop for him to put in the new plate & new spring.  He said come back in a couple of hours & maybe we can do the job together.

The problem is so obvious once I got the assembly out.  I don't yet know how many rivets are gone, but I think it must be a bunch of them.

  Robert in the hills of Tennessee

[Jeff K]

Howdy.  Original poster here.   

I finally got my bike back from Jim's Motorcycles in Johnson City, TN.  It took them 3 weeks and way too much money to remove that frozen side-stand bolt & replace it with a new one.  Well, I had to do that before I could even get to the clutch.  FWIW, I don't think I'll ever go back to Jim's.  Yeah, they did the job that I couldn't do, but too much $$$$$.

It is indeed the rivets.  Imagine that.  I've got it all apart & dropped off the inner clutch assembly at a local shop for him to put in the new plate & new spring.  He said come back in a couple of hours & maybe we can do the job together.

The problem is so obvious once I got the assembly out.  I don't yet know how many rivets are gone, but I think it must be a bunch of them.

  Robert in the hills of Tennessee

SURPRISE! Well not really 

Doing a clutch pack is really no big deal.