How to Handle a Gun ,,,,,When the Day Arrives

[big turkey]

Point of Aim , just like pointing your finger,,,is pretty good,,,no need to tediously aim,

just point your gun as you would your finger.

Try it,, it's quicker and just as deadly.

Gives you an edge.

Take a combat class or two, I did. You will be ready then.

John Wayne had a Line, most men before pulling a trigger will hesitate, take a breath, blink an eye,

I won't.

This clip explains it better and I like John Wayne.

John Wayne Is The Last Shootist	powered by Aeva

[X Ring]

Hollywood and the Real World are two different things.

Marty

[big turkey]

Did you not read to,,,,,,,,, take a class will help you.

I guess not.

Big AL

[Bobbo]

Hollywood and the Real World are two different things.

Marty

Those who have been in actual firefights would agree that it’s never the Hollywood fantasy.  While it’s easy to sit back in an armchair and spout keyboard bravado, those same people would probably soil their undies and pass out in a real life or death situation.

[big turkey]

Another,,, I did not read posts just rant.

Take a class ring a bell.

Hi Bobbo.

Big Al

[big turkey]

Better to be tried by 12, than carried by 6.

But then again it takes guts to be a person of action and not all talk.

Big AL

[hubcapsc]

Keyboard Brevado - adjective - telling Big Al he'd probably pee in his pants from way
across the Internet...

-Mike 

[Bobbo]

Keyboard Brevado - adjective - telling Big Al he'd probably pee in his pants from way
across the Internet...

-Mike 

The actual definition of “Keyboard Bravado” is posting to an online forum about how you would react to a given event, usually involving overt bravery or “manliness”.  This is usually reserved for people with an inferiority complex whose only outlet for their insecurity is to seek approval from other people.

[Jess from VA]

This is usually reserved for people with an inferiority complex whose only outlet for their insecurity is to seek approval from other people.

As opposed to those who spend their days criticizing others political beliefs, grammar, writing, attitude, intelligence, and political correctness. 

[Jabba]

As opposed to those who spend their days criticizing others political beliefs, grammar, writing, attitude, intelligence, and political correctness. 

Don't forget Manliness... I think he questioned that too.

Jabba

[Duckwheat]

DITTO.

If you have to defend yourself someday an actually kill someone, have you considered all the info you have put out there re your state of mind?

It gives a DA a lot of information to sort thorugh when he is making up his mind. Self defense or Dumb A_ _ looking to kill someone.

Good luck with that if that if it ever happens.

DW

[MP]

DITTO.

If you have to defend yourself someday an actually kill someone, have you considered all the info you have put out there re your state of mind?

It gives a DA a lot of information to sort thorugh when he is making up his mind. Self defense or Dumb A_ _ looking to kill someone.

Good luck with that if that if it ever happens.

DW

Well, I would rather worry about the possibility of a DA charging me, than having my wife worrying about my funeral expenses!

That said, that is where training comes in.  It would help you to be able to do the right thing.  For all Hollywood hyperbole, John Wayne is correct.  He IS saying the same thing.  ie HE will not hesitate, he has done it before, and can do it again.  This is the the character speaking.  The person he is facing has no experience shooting at someone, so they probably will hesitate, and in that second, Wayne's character kills them, because he did not.

I pray I am never in the situation of having to take a life, even if justified. It will affect me the rest of my life. However, I hope that if the need arises, I can do it, and deal with the consequences later.  Otherwise, it means someone good has died, maybe several, because of either my inaction, or, like those here who do not want guns, are unable to do anything.

Imagine the scenario on the train in NY several years ago, a crazed gunman, going up and down the aisle killing people. How would you feel as a "man", if you had to sit there and watch your family murdered, unable to do anything?

The libs used that to call for more gun bans.  I take it the other way.  If every other person on that train had been armed, he would not have been able to keep killing innocents.  I trust my fellow man, libs do not.  I like it when the person I am out riding with is armed.  He can come to my aid if needed, if unarmed, we will both be victims.

MP

[big turkey]

People that are forced to respond in a deadly force incident, historically do not

do well psychologically.

It is not something anyone would wish for, to be in that situation.

But i would rather be ready and not need the weapon, then not be ready and need it.

That is the healthy way to view right to carry.

Don't be a hero, don't go looking for trouble, act as if you are not armed is the right behavior.

Cops don't even do well after pulling and using their Firearm.

They suffer all kinds of trauma.

But I am glad they are not afraid to use the weapon they have against the criminal element.

If you are the type that wants to use a firearm or hurt someone , that is called

a Psychopath and any one like that does not deserve the right to carry or own a weapon.

But Guns are a small weapon and there are much bigger things they could whip up like,

AMFO Bombs or poisonous gas from Freon and the list goes on.

Big Al

[big turkey]

DITTO

[X Ring]

Did you not read to,,,,,,,,, take a class will help you.

I guess not.

Big AL

Hmm.  Take a class.  I guess the fact that I am a Nationally Certified Law Enforcement Handgun/Shotgun and Tactical Shooting Firearms Instructor, a 13 year Law Enforcement veteran and a veteran of the Panamanian Incursion and the 1st Gulf War doesn't qualify me to say watching tv or a movie isn't going to prepare you for a deadly force encounter.

Marty

Btw, I have looked at men over gunsights before.  The first time, a driver tried to run me down.  I don't remember jumping out of the way or drawing my weapon.  I ended up in the next lane with my Beretta M9 and Maglight side by side and was squeezing the trigger.  When the driver saw me draw, he slammed on his brakes and stopped.  Realizing he was no longer a threat to me, I released the trigger.  The hammer was already halfway back.  Within a few seconds of the car stopping, the MWD Handler(Military Working Dog) pursuing the vehicle put his German Shepherd in the driver's window.  I decocked the Beretta, flipped the safety back to fire and holstered.  It's not necessarilly that you have taken a class, it's the mental preparation that allows you to prevail.  And for your information, the primary reason people, including Police Officers, have psychological trauma is our cultural stigma against taking another's life.  What's the first thing that happens to an Officer when they do shoot someone?  Their weapon is taken and they are put on administrative leave.  Studies have shown those Officers with a strong religious background have suffered less trauma after a Deadly Force Incident. 
 

[Trynt]

Keyboard Brevado - adjective -

  This is usually reserved for people with an inferiority complex whose only outlet for their insecurity is to seek approval from other people.

Well no one can say that Bobbo suffers from an inferiority complex or seeks the approval of others.  

[Pale Rider]

Oh Please............Pilgrim!

[Spirited-6]

 Re: How to Handle a Gun ,,,,,When the Day Arrives

  I`m sorry but the only way I know is pull the trigger real fast and try and make sure your target is in front of you.  Re-load and do it again. 

[big turkey]

Well 10 ring you are excused from taking a class, but us other folks not trained on the Governments

dime, will probably need to.

Thanks for your service and insight, but some of us will probably still need the class.

I am reminded of the movie with Clint Eastwood in it,, called Blood Work, he used the ten ring on the

target to show what his goal was in practice.

Good Movie.

[czuch]

Xring, My hats off to you, sir, And if ever graced with the oppertunity, I'll gladly buy the first round.
I too have been in the fray and its not an easy thing to go through.  Ya gotta realize, somebody's mom is gonna get a letter. Thats hard. Movies are MAKE BELIEVE! I met John Wayne once. He was a very nice man and was an ACTOR. He had the props,for shure and he did sit tall in the saddle.

[Sludge]

Well, since everyone is giving their 2 cents... I will throw some of my change in as well. 

In my experience, skill with a handgun is a very perishable thing.  You can talk about pointing and shooting, but for me personally, to develop a good point... I mean a GOOD point, not a spray and pray point.  ... it took a several thousand rounds.  First you have to establish an index on the handgun and then you develop the point later.  If your unpracticed, your index will change from draw to draw and your point will only put you in the general direction.  You might scare the bad guy to death ... you might hit him, or ... since bullets go past their intended target at times.. you may spray into something you would have rather not shot. 

Shooting on a regular basis with the same gun and holster set up is key to me at least.  Also, IMHO dry fire exercises are at least as important if not more important than live fire.

IMHO there is no substitute for sweat equity.   Ya have to get out there and work with the gun.

Just my opinion.... like a55h0|es.. we all have em...

[Bobbo]

Shooting on a regular basis with the same gun and holster set up is key to me at least.  Also, IMHO dry fire exercises are at least as important if not more important than live fire.

Also, dry fire (with Snap Caps) can help reduce the “flinch” response that is easy to acquire from live fire sessions.

[Sludge]

Yea I guess the snap caps can be of use to some.  ESP those who live in urban areas with limited live fire access.

Im lucky that ive got a touch over 400 acres to play on here at home.  So, I can get all the live fire I can stand.  Somehow, the flinch went away for me without much trouble.  Now, with ears, I dont blink or anything.  Even live fire without ear protection... jumping out of my pickup truck to shoot at my moving target array (Ground Hogs LOL)   I find that I rarely blink.  I think its just putting lots of rounds through a gun and concentrating on the fundamentals.  Getting comfortable.  Then the flinch goes away I think.  Or at least it did for me.

[Jabba]

I can't afford all the ammo.  I LOVE to shoot... I like to practice... but ammo is rough.

Did you guys see "Top Shot"?

They had some REALLY cool shooting games in that one...

Jabba

[Sludge]

I watched the first 2 episodes then realized... its just all the drama and crap of survivor but with guns... 

Jabba, wish ya lived close to me.  I would load ya some for cheap.  For instance .45ACP Winchester 230gr White Box goes for about 50 cents per shot.  However, you can load it for

16 cents (same 230gr copper jacketed bullet)
3.5 cents Federal primer
3.0 cents Tite Group Hodgdon Powder

22.5 Cents per shot to make a factory equivalent reload.
Now, if you cast bullets and are willing to use lead, the price drops down to about a dime per shot if you buy the lead, or 7 cents if you get the lead for free (wheel weights).

My Dillon 650 press can load about 100 every 5 minutes.

[Hoser]

"I like it when the person I am out riding with is armed.  He can come to my aid if needed, if unarmed, we will both be victims."

Is this why you like to ride with me, MP?  Unfortunetly it's the main reason I didn't take the Canadian loop to IZX.    hoser 

[Jabba]

I keep thinking about getting either a .40 or a 10 mm. 

For now, both my hand guns are 9mm.  Not my FAVORITE round, but I shoot Federal Hydrashock in +P+.  I have a Sig 226, with 3 x 15 round mags for a total of 46 rounds at my disposal.  I usually don't carry that one because of it's size.  A head on a sillhouette is in serious jeopardy at 50 YARDS with that one...

My normal carry piece is a Taurus PT111.  I like that one A LOT less then the Sig.  But it fits in my pocket, and/or under my vest without issue.  I have 2 x 12 round mags for that one for 25 rounds at my disposal.  The same head is in A LOT less jeopardy at even 25 yards with that gun.  But I am still competent.  I need to shoot that one ALOT more before I am as good as I am with the Sig.

There is A LOT of 9mm ammo in the world. 

Jabba

[ETC]

Or better yet - Gunfighting for Idiots

http://www.stupidvideos.com/video/all/The_Gunfighters/#276545

[MP]

"I like it when the person I am out riding with is armed.  He can come to my aid if needed, if unarmed, we will both be victims."

Is this why you like to ride with me, MP?  Unfortunetly it's the main reason I didn't take the Canadian loop to IZX.    hoser 

You bet!  I need all the protection I can get!  LOL

MP

[big turkey]

My buddies always can count on me being armed and I chastise them for not being armed.

They have carry permits and should be armed right along with me.

One of my carry weapons is the Pt111 Taurus Pro.

I like it very much but tend to carry my Bersa 380 CC Concealed carry model, slim and fits right in

my Uncle Mikes waist belt holster.

Comes out slick as a whistle and back in the same way.

Big AL

[KW]

A few months ago I recall reading something on the Tech side of the VRCC Board that stuck with me. It was posted by one of the old tech-heads who really knows his way around a motor . . .  He said (paraphrasing) “If you don’t know for certain what you’re talking about when someone asks a repair question, shut up!” (OK, the ‘shut up’ was mine. He was more polite.)

When I read all these gun post by our resident ‘wannabe’ firearm experts, I don’t know if I should laugh or cringe. It’s so easy to see through the pretenders, I wish they would just stop. Please don’t misunderstand me, there’s nothing wrong with being a recreational shooter. Good grief, most of us either fall into that category or started that way. Shooting is fun (DUH!) but if you don’t know what you’re talking about, don’t think you can bluff your way through a conversation as if you were standing around the coffee pot at work with the other secretary’s.
 
On the other hand, reading the posting from the men here who REALLY know their business is fun. X-Ring and Sludge (and others) come to mind.

I'm NOT presenting myself as anything of an expert, but I would respectfully add the importance of ‘trigger control.’ In fact, the last preparatory command we use to give before ‘fire’ was “squeeeeeeze your trigger.” Obviously, it was to remind the shooters the importance of trigger control.  And, of course, as you guys know it’s always MUCH harder to break someone of their bad habits than to teach a newbie how to do it right to start with. I even had one old timer – who couldn’t hit water falling out of a boat – tell me that ‘sight picture’ was the most important thing. In reality, it’s arguably the least.

[X Ring]

I even had one old timer – who couldn’t hit water falling out of a boat – tell me that ‘sight picture’ was the most important thing. In reality, it’s arguably the least.

KW, I do have to agree with you to a point.  There are Seven Fundamentals of Shooting

1.  Grip
2.  Stance
3.  Sight Alignment
4.  Sight Picture
5.  Trigger Control
6.  Breathing
7.  Follow Through

Of the Seven Fundamentals, Sight Alignment and Trigger Control are the two most important; however, as Sight Picture is the placement of the Sight Alignment (the relationship of the front and rear sights) on the target, it's pretty important also.  You can have perfect Sight Alignment but if your sights aren't on target you WILL miss.  From approximately 12 yards in, the rest of the fundamentals, especially Breathing, aren't as important; however, as distance increases so does the requirement to use ALL the fundamentals. 

Your mind is only able to focus on one thing at a time; therefore, it has to focus on Sight Alignment as it is visual.  You have to practice so Trigger Control is shifted to the subconscious mind.  As you practice, you will get to the point where you will know when something is amiss, be able to stop your trigger squeeze, adjust and continue.       

Thus endeth this discussion on the Fundamentals of Handgun Marksmanship.

Marty

P.S.  Something I end my Handgun Handling Class with:

"This is the law:  The purpose of fighting is to win.  There is no possible victory in defense.  The sword is more important than the shield and skill is more important than either.  The final weapon is the brain.  ALL ELSE IS SUPPLEMENTAL."  John Steinbeck

Remember Ladies and Gentleman, The MIND is the WEAPON.

[Jabba]

I am not a big handgunner.  I am a big shotgunner, and rifleman.  I grew up hunting.  I would consider myself an acceptable bench shooter, and an above average meat shooter.  Meaning... I don't miss much when there is dinner on the line.  I have never been shot at, not shot at anyone else, other than in games... BB Guns and paintballs.  I hope I never have to.  But, sight picture, sight alignment, trigger control, breathing... they all translate from long guns to handguns.  Grip and stance not so much. 

I'd like a lot more range time.  I'd like to have a partner and come up with some fun... shooting games to develop skill and muscle memory.   

One of the things I see a lot, in taking novices to the range with handguns... is they anticipate the recoil and end up shooting into the ground about half way to the target.

Jabba

[KW]

I don’t think we’re disagreeing . . .    It’s important to ‘watch your sights’ (another preparatory command we used) but that’s different from over worrying about what’s down range. My point was that placing too much importance on your target will detract from your score. I should have differentiated the difference between target shooting and combat shooting. Of the 7 principals you listed, as I mentioned previously, ‘sight picture’ is absolutely the least important.  I stand by that.

I’m only an average rifle shot, but I’ve had my moments. When I shoot, all I “see” is first and foremost my sights and then a fuzzy outline of the center of the target I’m shooting at. I concentrate on my fundamentals – the other 6 things you listed – and then make certain I’m ‘squeezing’ the trigger. I haven’t had a ‘bolo’ in years and usually can cover my hits with a coffee can top (the big size – LOL) I worked with a number of guys who could cover their hits with a quarter and a couple who could use a dime (.223) Now, that’s shooting!

Now with a pistol . . .  I’m a little better, but even if I’m having an off day, one of those 29 rounds is going to hit something.

[X Ring]

One of the things I've learned is it is easier to take a good handgun shooter and turn him/her into a decent rifle shooter than the other way round.  Good handgun shooters understand a slight sight misalignment can cost you dearly as the shorter handgun barrels magnify the misalignment.  They also understand the importance of a proper trigger squeeze as an improper squeeze will move a handgun off line.  They just need to be taught the proper grip and stance/positions.

The very first range exercise I have my students do is purely an accuracy exercise.  It requires 10 rounds per distance, 12 if they are using a six shot revolver.  Start at 5 yards and fire all 10/12 rounds at your own pace concentrating on all the fundamentals.  You don't have to buy targets.  An 8 inch paper plate with a 1" square drawn on it with a magic marker is all you need.  Place the square on top of your front sight, use the fundamentals and fire.  Hopefully you will have one ragged hole.  If not, stay there until you can do it.  If you can't see if you can find an instructor to help you.  After you done that at 5 yards, move back to 10 yards and do it again, then 15 yards, then 20 yards and finally 25 yards.  This is all standing unsupported.  As you move back you probably won't be able to shoot a ragged hole but if, at 25 yards, you can keep all your rounds on the paper plate then you've shot an acceptable group.  Take a paper plate and hold it up to your chest and you'll find it will easily cover the cardiovascular area of the average person.  Clint Smith, the owner/chief instructor of Thunder Ranch, has said the best thing most shooters need to improve their accuracy is a case of ammo.  I guarantee if you shoot a 1,000 rounds like this, you will improve. 

Don't try to shoot fast.  Shoot smooth.  Slow is smooth, smooth is fast.  As you get smoother, your speed will increase.

Marty 

[PharmBoy]

Re: How to Handle a Gun ,,,,,When the Day Arrives

  I`m sorry but the only way I know is pull the trigger real fast and try and make sure your target is in front of you.  Re-load and do it again. 

Yes, and there is a pharmacist on trial for murder in OKC right now for doing that very thing.  Don't ever trust your D.A. to do the right thing.  I think that the reload and do it again thing is what upset the D.A...JTL

[Sludge]

Yea, Ive been watching that story develop PharmBoy. He may end up getting off.  The autopsy results have came into question it seems about whether his first shots were fatal or not.

[Sludge]

Oh and well said X Ring.  I use alot of paper plates myself, if I am lacking in IDPA targets, for precisely the reason you mentioned.  They are the cheapest targets ya can buy 

[RoadKill]

I keep thinking about getting either a .40 or a 10 mm. 

For now, both my hand guns are 9mm.  Not my FAVORITE round, but I shoot Federal Hydrashock in +P+.  I have a Sig 226, with 3 x 15 round mags for a total of 46 rounds at my disposal.  I usually don't carry that one because of it's size.  A head on a sillhouette is in serious jeopardy at 50 YARDS with that one...

My normal carry piece is a Taurus PT111.  I like that one A LOT less then the Sig.  But it fits in my pocket, and/or under my vest without issue.  I have 2 x 12 round mags for that one for 25 rounds at my disposal.  The same head is in A LOT less jeopardy at even 25 yards with that gun.  But I am still competent.  I need to shoot that one ALOT more before I am as good as I am with the Sig.

There is A LOT of 9mm ammo in the world. 

Jabba

Taurus makes a pt145.....45acp  and you cant tell the difference in it and the pt111  with out laying one on top of the other.

[Tundra]

One of the things I've learned is it is easier to take a good handgun shooter and turn him/her into a decent rifle shooter than the other way round.  Good handgun shooters understand a slight sight misalignment can cost you dearly as the shorter handgun barrels magnify the misalignment.  They also understand the importance of a proper trigger squeeze as an improper squeeze will move a handgun off line.  They just need to be taught the proper grip and stance/positions.

The very first range exercise I have my students do is purely an accuracy exercise.  It requires 10 rounds per distance, 12 if they are using a six shot revolver.  Start at 5 yards and fire all 10/12 rounds at your own pace concentrating on all the fundamentals.  You don't have to buy targets.  An 8 inch paper plate with a 1" square drawn on it with a magic marker is all you need.  Place the square on top of your front sight, use the fundamentals and fire.  Hopefully you will have one ragged hole.  If not, stay there until you can do it.  If you can't see if you can find an instructor to help you.  After you done that at 5 yards, move back to 10 yards and do it again, then 15 yards, then 20 yards and finally 25 yards.  This is all standing unsupported.  As you move back you probably won't be able to shoot a ragged hole but if, at 25 yards, you can keep all your rounds on the paper plate then you've shot an acceptable group.  Take a paper plate and hold it up to your chest and you'll find it will easily cover the cardiovascular area of the average person.  Clint Smith, the owner/chief instructor of Thunder Ranch, has said the best thing most shooters need to improve their accuracy is a case of ammo.  I guarantee if you shoot a 1,000 rounds like this, you will improve.  

Don't try to shoot fast.  Shoot smooth.  Slow is smooth, smooth is fast.  As you get smoother, your speed will increase.

Marty  

Good Advise