RE: CARBS, Help Needed - The Readers Digest Version -"Problem Solved!!!!!"

[Capt7three]

Many thanks to all who posted a response to my "issue". One thing I forgot to mention was, my scooter had less than 10,000 miles on it (bought it March '99). I appoligize. Knowing that may have changed some of the ideas that were submitted. My bike periodically spent a month or two with no use, sitting under a cover in my garage. While I was working (ret. 2007), I spent time a way from home and did not ride regularly. That meant it sat with gas in the tank, California gas, and we all know what that means. I never noticed the gradual decrease in performance til I took it in to get new tires at a Honda dealer. The mechanic who changed the tires took the bike out for a test ride and mentioned that there was probably a jet issue because of the response to throttle on initial acceleration. I was given the Seafoam treatment recomendation, which I followed. Things just got worse. Consequently, I posted the request for help, and got a lot of good recomendations, but I just could not see taking the fuel system all apart ,and ending up with even more problems that result from that sort of thing. I gave it all a lot of thought and decided on some basic applied physics.

This is what I did:

I went to the local Autozone store, bought about half gallon of Berryman B-12. I blocked the side stand so the bike was almost straight up. I disconnected the vacuum line from the petcock and connected a seperate vacuum line to operate the diaphram. I drained the gas from the tank. I drained the gas from each carb, one at a time (#1 and #2 barely had any flow). Next I poured three 15 ounce cans of B-12 into the tank and opened each carb drain, one at a time, to insure they all drained. I had placed a plastic oil bottle under tha drain to catch the runoff and let alll six carbs flow for about an hour, pouring the B-12 back into the tank about every three to five minutes, the oil bottle about 75% full each time. Periodically, I would take a small glass bottle and look at the draining cleaner to see if there was anything noticible in the fluid. After about ten minutes, the B-12 went from crystal clear to a light golden color, which became darker as time went by. Also, #1 and #2 carbs began flowing heavier as time passed by, turning them all off about every 15 minutes to check them indivivually, then alll back on. I let all of the B-12 drain out, poured in one more 15 ounce can, let alll six carbs fill and drain out and closed the drains. I put the bike back together, pulled the sparks plugs and turned the engine over with the starter. There was a little fluid in #1 cylinder (blew out the plug hole), but that went away in seconds. Reinstalled the plugs, filled the gas tank with fresh gas and went for a ride. It ran like it was new. I have gone through three tanks of gas with B-12 added at a rate of 1 ounce per gallon, and it just keeps gettin better: no hesitation, no stumbling or weakness from idle through redline.

This process may help some of you, mabe not, but it worked for me. The physics part of the story: A flowing solvent will disolve any substance many times more efficiently than a static one.

Comments welcome.

[Mr. Nuts]

Thanks for the report and for another idea on how to unplug those pesky slow-jets. Glad you have a good running Valkyrie again...

[Black Dog]

I see a winter project in my future... 

Thanks for the follow up 

Black Dog

[Patrick]

Nice,, sure beats getting your little fingers dirty doesn't it ??  Simple, fairly clean, easy and best of all, it worked !!  I likes it..

[Valker]

Wow, I like it. Thanks for sharing a wonderful idea!!

[FLAVALK]

Good job! I'm a firm believer in Berrymans. It is great for cleaning carbs and a lot less expensive than Seafoam

[Rocketman]

Glad you got your jets cleaned out.  Sounds like a great procedure.

However:

There was a little fluid in #1 cylinder (blew out the plug hole), but that went away in seconds.

Call me paranoid, but this looks like a big red flag to me.  If she leaks liquid into a cylinder, you're begging for a hydrolock.  Maybe the Berryman's cleared the blockage that caused that leak, and maybe it didn't.  My recommendation:
Repeat your setup, with the following variation:
Close off the drains.

Just let 'er sit for a while (petock diaphragm held open with the vacuum).  An hour should do it.  Repeat your "pull the spark plugs and turn the engine over" step.  If fluid comes out again, you have a potential problem.  Search this forum for hydrolock, and you'll find my dissertation on the topic, along with lots of others.  
If no fluid comes out, you're golden.  Close 'er up and run 'er.

Mark

[Capt7three]

Rocketman,

Since I reported my results, I have been on a couple of rides, the last over the Labor Day weekend. One leg; 138 miles on 3.8 gallons = 36.31 mpg.

When I started my project, I expected the possibility of a hydrolock. Being an aircraft mechanic from way back, hydrolock in aircraft engines (mostly radial engines) is nothing new. The fact that #1 cylinder carb was not flowing very well with the float bowl drain open gave me the clue that either the float needle against the seat was stuck partly open , or was obstructed, and when the drain was closed, the Berryman would still flow and overflow into the cylinder, risking a hydrolock, the reason I pulled the plugs before attempting a start. Even if the drains are closed, a needle leaking past the seat will still allow a hydrolock if enough fluid is available. But if you remember, at the end of my experiment, all of the float bowl drains were flowing normally, and at the same approximate rate. I have not experienced any hydrolock issues, and the engine is running strong and smooth. As a matter of fact, I can cold start the engine without choke, and she settles into an approximate 900-1000 rpm idle (California cold start that is).

Your point is well taken.

[Rocketman]

Those are all good signs, but it's not a definitive "no leak" diagnosis.  The flow improving means they're opening well, which might mean that they're not leaking, but one does not necessarily mean the other.  The fact that you've not experienced a hydrolock could mean that there's no issue, or it could mean that your petcock is sealing well even though your needle seats aren't.  This means you're one failure (and a not-uncommon failure, at that) away from a hydrolock.  As painful as the hydrolock repair is, I would not be comfortable with that.  Since you have the means to open the petcock without the engine running, it's a simple test.  I still highly recommend you do this.

[Chiefy]

This is an older thread, but I was wondering what you used to create enough vacuum to hold the diaphragm open the whole time?

[9Ball]

a little mouth suction like drawing on a straw (you don't need very much pull and you should "feel" the diaphragm moving), then clamp with hemostats or similar.

[Rocketman]

A "MightyVac" hand pump works fine, too, but don't over pressurize.  Umm... I mean, don't under pressurize.  You know what I mean.  Don't pull too much vacuum.
(:

[Airetime]

Many thanks to all who posted a response to my "issue". One thing I forgot to mention was, my scooter had less than 10,000 miles on it (bought it March '99). I appoligize. Knowing that may have changed some of the ideas that were submitted. My bike periodically spent a month or two with no use, sitting under a cover in my garage. While I was working (ret. 2007), I spent time a way from home and did not ride regularly. That meant it sat with gas in the tank, California gas, and we all know what that means. I never noticed the gradual decrease in performance til I took it in to get new tires at a Honda dealer. The mechanic who changed the tires took the bike out for a test ride and mentioned that there was probably a jet issue because of the response to throttle on initial acceleration. I was given the Seafoam treatment recomendation, which I followed. Things just got worse. Consequently, I posted the request for help, and got a lot of good recomendations, but I just could not see taking the fuel system all apart ,and ending up with even more problems that result from that sort of thing. I gave it all a lot of thought and decided on some basic applied physics.

This is what I did:

I went to the local Autozone store, bought about half gallon of Berryman B-12. I blocked the side stand so the bike was almost straight up. I disconnected the vacuum line from the petcock and connected a seperate vacuum line to operate the diaphram. I drained the gas from the tank. I drained the gas from each carb, one at a time (#1 and #2 barely had any flow). Next I poured three 15 ounce cans of B-12 into the tank and opened each carb drain, one at a time, to insure they all drained. I had placed a plastic oil bottle under tha drain to catch the runoff and let alll six carbs flow for about an hour, pouring the B-12 back into the tank about every three to five minutes, the oil bottle about 75% full each time. Periodically, I would take a small glass bottle and look at the draining cleaner to see if there was anything noticible in the fluid. After about ten minutes, the B-12 went from crystal clear to a light golden color, which became darker as time went by. Also, #1 and #2 carbs began flowing heavier as time passed by, turning them all off about every 15 minutes to check them indivivually, then alll back on. I let all of the B-12 drain out, poured in one more 15 ounce can, let alll six carbs fill and drain out and closed the drains. I put the bike back together, pulled the sparks plugs and turned the engine over with the starter. There was a little fluid in #1 cylinder (blew out the plug hole), but that went away in seconds. Reinstalled the plugs, filled the gas tank with fresh gas and went for a ride. It ran like it was new. I have gone through three tanks of gas with B-12 added at a rate of 1 ounce per gallon, and it just keeps gettin better: no hesitation, no stumbling or weakness from idle through redline.

This process may help some of you, mabe not, but it worked for me. The physics part of the story: A flowing solvent will disolve any substance many times more efficiently than a static one.

Comments welcome.

It is always great when someone posts a follow up on the problems they have to find out what worked and what the problem actually ended up as. It is becoming more important that we monitor our fuel because of the forced 10% ethanol mix. Ethanol attracts moisture like metal to a magnet. This time of the year we need to be aware of how we prepare our Valks for winter storage and what we put into our tanks. I have an inexpensive ethanol tester that I use if I suspect ethanol in the fuel. I have eliminated many stations because of the required ethanol. If it was measured and monitored properly we would not have 3% ethanol at one station and 11% ethanol at another.

I am fortunate that there is one station in town that still tests 100% ethanol free. Anyhow draining the carbs before we store is a given, making sure of how much ethanol is in our tanks is becoming a must. Adding Sta-bil or Sea Foam will at least help stabilize the fuel so that we don’t have to spend hundreds of dollars and hours of frustration come spring. Our Valkyries were built to be driven and if they sit we will have problems.

OK, now I feel better….