Final drive lube+

[Varmintmist]

What is your favorite final drive oil? Mine is draining as I type, so I guess tomorrow I should get some. The Clymer book says Hypoid gear oil??? I have greased a lot of things, changed a lot of oil and fluids, spent spring break in a grease pit making money, what the hell is hypoid gear oil? Glanced around the shop who did the tire and they had gear oil, nothing said hypoid.

I have moly grease, however I was eyeballing some Lucas red and some Green Grease that was marine grease. Any favorites? If I have to blow 6 bucks on a tube of grease, I can live with that. It will get used.

Speaking of stuff to get, what seats, gaskets should I be ordering since the pinion is coming out in about 15 min, I will at some point want to put it back together.

[Red Diamond]

Belray water proof marine.

[Varmintmist]

 
 
Looks like I am good

[Varmintmist]

Belray water proof marine.

Grease? Where did you find that. We have the std TSC, Wally, and auto parts stores handy. TSC had the Lucas red marine and the green grease stuff. http://www.greengrease.net/

[Varmintmist]

Hypoid = type of gear = EP (extreme pressure) = about any gear oil made apparently..

And I just happen to have 3/4 qt of sae 80w-90 EP gear oil under the bench, unless anyone can see a reason to NOT use that.............

[Sodbuster]

What is your favorite final drive oil? Mine is draining as I type, so I guess tomorrow I should get some. The Clymer book says Hypoid gear oil??? I have greased a lot of things, changed a lot of oil and fluids, spent spring break in a grease pit making money, what the hell is hypoid gear oil? Glanced around the shop who did the tire and they had gear oil, nothing said hypoid.

Hypoid gear oil is for the type of gears inside your drive unit. They are "Hypoid" gears that look like x-mas trees messing together at 90 deg angles and require special oil for the higher pressures they create. I use Lucas Synthetic Hypoid Gear oil for the drive unit and Guard Dog 525 moly grease for the splines ....

[Valkahuna]

I was advised that due to the small quantity of fluid in the final drive it would be good to use a full synthetic oil. I have some Spectro SPL Full synthetic , GL5 75W/90 that I plan to use next change.

My Honda dealer did the last change and used 90W petroleum gear oil (whatever their shop manual called for).

[Tropic traveler]

Mobil 1 full synthetic. 
I had a near full qrt left over from my Rocket 3 days & found it works fine in all our Valks!
Hey, if Triumph recommends it for their 142HP torque monster it should be good enough for our little 'ol Valkyries.

[NITRO]

I just started using Green Grease after SmokinJoe mentioned it. Seems like great stuff to me. While I was looking over the greases at Advanced Auto, one of their sales guys came over and asked what I was using it for. I told him what it was for and he replied about the Green Grease "that's way overkill for that!"

[98valk]

just put mine back together today with a new E3,  Metz lasted 14k.

amsoil 75w90 with TS-90 moly additive like the factory fill.  http://www.tsmoly.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=1_9_15&products_id=162

rear drive splines and drive shaft spline
coated with copper anti-sieze (as it comes from the factory), then heavy coat of TS-70 paste and then top coat of TS-65 moly grease. wheel splines came out a little dry, some gease should help.
http://www.tsmoly.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=1_7&products_id=84
http://www.tsmoly.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=1_2&products_id=58

u-joint both ends TS-65 grease.

And the pinion cup is not lubed from the gear oil in the rear drive. Tech manual requires pinion cup and drive shaft to be packed with moly paste.

[MP]

I see everyone is talking about two places.  One is the pinion cup and splines, the other is the oil in the final drive.

The pics show VERY WELL for the naysayers, the GL-5 final drive oil getting onto the driveshaft and pinion cup.  Should end that argument right here.

The final drive uses a GL-5 gear oil.

The cup uses a very light coating of grease, which, if you clean out the holes in the cup, will then be oiled by the final drive oil.

MP

[Valkpilot]

Going by the Honda service manual, which is downloadable at http://www.valkyrienorway.com/1520manual/valkyriegl1500.zip the following are called for:

Rear drive oil: Hypoid gear oil SAE 80W  (page 12-1)  Note that many people use a full synthetic 75-90W as mentioned above.

Per pages 12-18 and 12-19, drive shaft and pinion cup splines get small amounts (1 or 2 grams) of moly grease.  Many people use marine grade or other grease suitable for wheel bearing applications. 

Don't pack it in the pinion cup and clean the small holes in the bottom of the pinion cup before re-assembly.

Per pages 14-7 through 14-9, the thrust washer, o-rings, drive splines and driven hub splines are all to  be packed with moly paste.

[fudgie]

Mobile 1 sythetic oil and valvoline moly grease.

[Redline +]

And the pinion cup is not lubed from the gear oil in the rear drive.

Mine is...just pulled it...pinion cup and shaft covered with oil. Tipped the pinion cup down and the oil runs out of it.

Redline 

[X Ring]

Mobile 1 sythetic oil and valvoline moly grease.

Me too.   

Marty

[98valk]

And the pinion cup is not lubed from the gear oil in the rear drive.

Mine is...just pulled it...pinion cup and shaft covered with oil. Tipped the pinion cup down and the oil runs out of it.

Redline  

just pulled mine after 13.6k miles since the last service. Zero oil in the pinion cup.
reasons for oil in the pinion cup;
1) too much gear oil in the gear case, was the level checked on the bike or on the bench during a tire change. it has to be done on the bike due to the gear case upward angle when installed. Installing oil on the bench with the shaft end parallel to the bench top will cause an overfill condition.
2) the breather cap is clogged, dirt, bugs, etc.
3) the oil one is seeing is the oil coming out of the carriers of the oil in the grease. grease is nothing but oil suspended in a carrier.
4) the pinion cup holes are secondary vent holes in case of #2. We do not want the gear case to become overpressurized during operation and blowing out seals going down the highway miles from home. These holes are not for providing lubrication to the pinion cup drive shaft connection. There is a shaft/oil seal installed to prevent gear oil from getting out. Why would honda provide by-pass holes to let gear oil out during normal operational conditions? Honda wouldn't. Most likely the way the holes are drilled in the pinion cup end are to prevent gear oil from escaping the gear case and not to draw it out.

the manual requires the drive shaft and pinion cup connection to be packed with moly grease for lubrication. the connection is not designed to be lubed by gear oil.
if one has gear oil in the pinion cup one has a problem.

[Redline +]

And the pinion cup is not lubed from the gear oil in the rear drive.

Mine is...just pulled it...pinion cup and shaft covered with oil. Tipped the pinion cup down and the oil runs out of it.

Redline 

if one has gear oil in the pinion cup one has a problem.

This is a problem that my splines and I can live with.

Redline 

[Robert]

Reline 75w/140 with belray grease 

[Farther]

I use Mobil 1 gear oil.  About $7.99 a quart at my local auto store.

[98valk]

[
[/quote]

This is a problem that my splines and I can live with.

Redline 
[/quote]

lets look at the engineering side of your statement.
Too have enough gear oil in the gear case so that it travels up an angle to fill the pinion cup means that the gears are most likely aerating the gear oil causing foam from the overfill. Air bubbles/foam do not lubricate the gears and internal bearings. worst case gear oil pressure will cause leakage at the seals.
how much does a new gear case cost? can u live with that?
Honda designed these bikes to last, why are their lube procedures not good enough?
I have never heard of overfilling a differential and expecting it to last a long time.
splines require high pressure grease with moly, not gear oil. if it needed gear oil honda would have designed it to be in an oil bath.

[gordonv]

Speaking of stuff to get, what seats, gaskets should I be ordering since the pinion is coming out in about 15 min, I will at some point want to put it back together.

One question asked, but not addressed, was the above.

I'm also going to do my rear for the first time ever, and will also follow the manual, but need to know what items I need to buy before I pull the rear wheel off.

I have other questions, that I haven't been able to search and find answers for yet, but I'll save them for another post.

[X Ring]

Gordon the only thing you really need are the 3 o rings and you can get those from Carolina Bike and Trike.  http://www.carolinabikeandtrike.com/ORings.htm  The only reason you would need to remove the pinion cup is if you were replacing it and the driveshaft.

Marty

[Tropic traveler]

Mobile 1 sythetic oil and valvoline moly grease.

Exact combo that I have used.

[Tropic traveler]

Speaking of stuff to get, what seats, gaskets should I be ordering since the pinion is coming out in about 15 min, I will at some point want to put it back together.

One question asked, but not addressed, was the above.

I'm also going to do my rear for the first time ever, and will also follow the manual, but need to know what items I need to buy before I pull the rear wheel off.

I have other questions, that I haven't been able to search and find answers for yet, but I'll save them for another post.

I just re-sealed the pumpkin on my '97 while I put in a new driveshaft & pinion cup.
There are 3 seals in the pumpkin, the large one around the drive flange which is obvious & easy to change. The other two are at the pinion & require removing {unscrewing} the pinion collar to replace. One is an O-ring & the other is a conventional seal that seals the pinion cup. The seal drives out from the backside of the collar. The O-ring one is self explanatory. After removing the collar lock, I marked the collar to make sure I put it back exactly where it was. There is a special Honda tool to remove the lock collar but I just used the old "tap with a hammer & punch" method.
Came out good.

I don't know how to post the Honda fiche drawing up but the seals you need are #31 {pinion seal}, #32 {the big one}, & #35 {pinion O-ring}. The collar is #10.

[Varmintmist]

just as a experiment, I cleaned out the pinion cup and the little holes in back. Then I dumped some of the other gear lube in and held it up.


I would have to say that its pretty clear, the pinion cup is lubed by the gear oil. Another reason to check and change your fluids.

If the gear oil was not supposed to get there, and the pinion cup REQUIRED grease, then the holes would not be there and it would be sealed off. If the cup needed the lubrication of grease then a lighter lube like gear oil would break it down and there would not be enough lubrication. If they are "air holes" then why would you fill the cup with grease and plug it with a seal?

Sure you can pack it with grease, that doesn't mean its correct. I pack the transmission on my brush hog with grease, because it leaks gear oil.

[gordonv]

There are 2 O-Rings in the fiche for the rear wheel, part # 19 & 20

http://www.bikebandit.com/houseofmotorcycles/1999-honda-motorcycle-gl1500cf-valkyrie-interstate-rear-wheel/o/m2369sch303672

That makes only 2 seals in the rear wheel rim, where could the 3rd one be?

[98valk]

just as a experiment, I cleaned out the pinion cup and the little holes in back. Then I dumped some of the other gear lube in and held it up.


I would have to say that its pretty clear, the pinion cup is lubed by the gear oil. Another reason to check and change your fluids.

If the gear oil was not supposed to get there, and the pinion cup REQUIRED grease, then the holes would not be there and it would be sealed off. If the cup needed the lubrication of grease then a lighter lube like gear oil would break it down and there would not be enough lubrication. If they are "air holes" then why would you fill the cup with grease and plug it with a seal?

Sure you can pack it with grease, that doesn't mean its correct. I pack the transmission on my brush hog with grease, because it leaks gear oil.

mine does the same thing however, I had no oil in the pinion cup only grease and the factory installed copper anti-sieze which I thought was rust at first until further inspection revealed it was anti-sieze.
just because u are holding a piece of equipment in a none operating postition means nothing.
if u hold it upside down the oil will pour out.
if I hold most engines upside down, oil will eventually pour out. this means nothing.
The holes in the pinion cup do not lube it. the moly grease does per the manual.
look at the position of an installed gear case. the angle of the pinion cup to the axle would mean that the oil would have to be pumped uphill to reach the pinion cup. There is no pumping mechanism in the gear case.
if the correct oil level is installed no oil will enter the pinion cup.

[98valk]

o-rings do not have to be changed every tire change unless they are have cracks, are loose indicating they are streched and/or they are showing wear such as not rounded with a flat spot/s and are lower or level with the metal surface next to it.
the manual also calls for the oil seal and the stopper ring to be replaced on the drive shaft.

[Redline +]

just as a experiment, I cleaned out the pinion cup and the little holes in back. Then I dumped some of the other gear lube in and held it up.


I would have to say that its pretty clear, the pinion cup is lubed by the gear oil. Another reason to check and change your fluids.

If the gear oil was not supposed to get there, and the pinion cup REQUIRED grease, then the holes would not be there and it would be sealed off. If the cup needed the lubrication of grease then a lighter lube like gear oil would break it down and there would not be enough lubrication. If they are "air holes" then why would you fill the cup with grease and plug it with a seal?

Sure you can pack it with grease, that doesn't mean its correct. I pack the transmission on my brush hog with grease, because it leaks gear oil.

mine does the same thing however, I had no oil in the pinion cup only grease and the factory installed copper anti-sieze which I thought was rust at first until further inspection revealed it was anti-sieze.
just because u are holding a piece of equipment in a none operating postition means nothing.
if u hold it upside down the oil will pour out.
if I hold most engines upside down, oil will eventually pour out. this means nothing.
The holes in the pinion cup do not lube it. the moly grease does per the manual.
look at the position of an installed gear case. the angle of the pinion cup to the axle would mean that the oil would have to be pumped uphill to reach the pinion cup. There is no pumping mechanism in the gear case.
if the correct oil level is installed no oil will enter the pinion cup.

You may want to consider that the oil doesn't just stay at the full level. At speed the gears are slinging the oil, coating every surface inside the case. That would be your "pumping mechanism".

I do believe this horse is dead...

Redline    

[fudgie]

On that visual, i was thinking can someone take a final drive, drive shaft-dry no lube, and hand crank it for awhile and then pull the shaft out after a 'few miles' and see if there is oil in it?

[X Ring]

There are 2 O-Rings in the fiche for the rear wheel, part # 19 & 20

http://www.bikebandit.com/houseofmotorcycles/1999-honda-motorcycle-gl1500cf-valkyrie-interstate-rear-wheel/o/m2369sch303672

That makes only 2 seals in the rear wheel rim, where could the 3rd one be?

Gordon, Shoptalk is your friend.  You would be surprised what you can find in our Member's articles.  http://www.valkyrieriders.com/shoptalk/Elusive%203rd%20O-Ring.htm

Marty

[MP]

On that visual, i was thinking can someone take a final drive, drive shaft-dry no lube, and hand crank it for awhile and then pull the shaft out after a 'few miles' and see if there is oil in it?

If you can hand crank it at 50-60 miles per hour speed, it would work.  I doubt at low speed it would.

I think the pic says it all.  Just like on my IS, when he took it apart, it was bathed in gear oil.  Easy to see.  Also, gear oil has a pecular odor, and you can tell gear lube from other oils.  It is NOT grease breaking down!

He shows that it works.

MP

[X Ring]

o-rings do not have to be changed every tire change unless they are have cracks, are loose indicating they are streched and/or they are showing wear such as not rounded with a flat spot/s and are lower or level with the metal surface next to it.
the manual also calls for the oil seal and the stopper ring to be replaced on the drive shaft.

I HIGHLY recommend you reread pages 12-16,  14-7 and 14-8 of the Honda Shop Manual.  For each O Ring it says to pack molybdenum disulfide paste into the O-Ring Groove and then coat a NEW O Ring with molydenum disulfide paste and install it into the groove.

Every time I have removed my rear wheel I have found at least one O Ring at least flattened.  A couple of bucks for new O Rings is very cheap insurance to prevent your lube of choice from drying out and causing premature wheel flange/final drive wear.  Matt at Carolina Bike and Trike sells 5 sets of the 3 O Rings for $16.50 including shipping.  That's what?  $3.30 per wheel r&r?   

Marty
   

[fudgie]

On that visual, i was thinking can someone take a final drive, drive shaft-dry no lube, and hand crank it for awhile and then pull the shaft out after a 'few miles' and see if there is oil in it?

If you can hand crank it at 50-60 miles per hour speed, it would work.  I doubt at low speed it would.

I think the pic says it all.  Just like on my IS, when he took it apart, it was bathed in gear oil.  Easy to see.  Also, gear oil has a pecular odor, and you can tell gear lube from other oils.  It is NOT grease breaking down!

He shows that it works.

MP

How much fluid is lost then? It seems like you would be very low on fluid by the the time you hit 15k miles. How much you think it lost on a 100 mile run? Lets say 1cc per 100 miles. Thats 150cc during that time. Should be empty by then I would think.

[Ricky-D]

CA is correct in this instance where he says the holes are for venting purposes.

The two chambers, the largest being the housing and the smaller one being the pinion cup area are sealed completely to the outside except for the vent at the top of the housing.

The holes in the pinion cup are to allow any ambient pressure buildup however that may occur, to be vented into the main housing.

I was mistaken in my view that they were for draining purposes although they could be construed as drains for air pressure.

It's very questionable when those insist the holes are for lubrication but cannot explain how this lubrication is to get to the area in question except by accident!  Do they think there is splashing oil in the differential? I don't think so. There is less than 6 ounces of 80 weight oil in a system where everything is rotating. How does that induce splashing?

***

[98valk]

o-rings do not have to be changed every tire change unless they are have cracks, are loose indicating they are streched and/or they are showing wear such as not rounded with a flat spot/s and are lower or level with the metal surface next to it.
the manual also calls for the oil seal and the stopper ring to be replaced on the drive shaft.

I HIGHLY recommend you reread pages 12-16,  14-7 and 14-8 of the Honda Shop Manual.  For each O Ring it says to pack molybdenum disulfide paste into the O-Ring Groove and then coat a NEW O Ring with molydenum disulfide paste and install it into the groove.

Every time I have removed my rear wheel I have found at least one O Ring at least flattened.  A couple of bucks for new O Rings is very cheap insurance to prevent your lube of choice from drying out and causing premature wheel flange/final drive wear.  Matt at Carolina Bike and Trike sells 5 sets of the 3 O Rings for $16.50 including shipping.  That's what?  $3.30 per wheel r&r?   

Marty
   

I quote the manual all of the time, but some common sense is required.
like I said if damage or showing wear. Remember the manual is written to increase parts sales and no comebacks and possibility of lawyers getting involved. The spec for tire changeout will have had me replacing the OEM tire at 6k. the tires went 13k to the wear bars. Disc brake bolts are to be replaced with new. Why, because new already has loc-tight on them, lawyers protection clause to install new ones. Stealers make the most money % wise on parts sales, not bike sales.
Yet very few follow 8k oil change with honda dino oil. most u much, much better oil and change at 3k.
Like I stated, this tire change I just did at 26k same o-rings no signs of wear with eyepiece, 13.6k since last spline lube, slightly dried out, used a new mix of copper anti-sieze, moly paste and some moly grease this time.

Further research and I have found out what the holes in the pinion cup are really for. This agrees with my over 30 yrs of working in the engineering field on various systems on US Naval Ships.
Since I was told this is a dead horse, I will only post on this if asked and I will freely provide the info which could save he gear case. Whoever started the pinion cup holes are for lubing the gear case is sadly mistaken.

[98valk]

CA is correct in this instance where he says the holes are for venting purposes.

The two chambers, the largest being the housing and the smaller one being the pinion cup area are sealed completely to the outside except for the vent at the top of the housing.

The holes in the pinion cup are to allow any ambient pressure buildup however that may occur, to be vented into the main housing.

I was mistaken in my view that they were for draining purposes although they could be construed as drains for air pressure.

It's very questionable when those insist the holes are for lubrication but cannot explain how this lubrication is to get to the area in question except by accident!  Do they think there is splashing oil in the differential? I don't think so. There is less than 6 ounces of 80 weight oil in a system where everything is rotating. How does that induce splashing?

***

RD, I knew we would agree on something one day. 

And the chrome breather cap is acutally a one way check valve. If that is not releasing to atmosphere (the one way direction) then the oil under pressure/expansion from the heat buildup during operation will expand into the pinion cup. during cooldown the pinion cup vent holes allow air back in. this keeps the gear case free from outside contaminants.

[Redline +]

On that visual, i was thinking can someone take a final drive, drive shaft-dry no lube, and hand crank it for awhile and then pull the shaft out after a 'few miles' and see if there is oil in it?

If you can hand crank it at 50-60 miles per hour speed, it would work.  I doubt at low speed it would.

I think the pic says it all.  Just like on my IS, when he took it apart, it was bathed in gear oil.  Easy to see.  Also, gear oil has a pecular odor, and you can tell gear lube from other oils.  It is NOT grease breaking down!

He shows that it works.

MP

How much fluid is lost then? It seems like you would be very low on fluid by the the time you hit 15k miles. How much you think it lost on a 100 mile run? Lets say 1cc per 100 miles. Thats 150cc during that time. Should be empty by then I would think.

Fudgie, there is no oil loss. The pinion cup is sealed by a seal on the rear of the driveshaft.

Redline 

[hubcapsc]

Disc brake bolts are to be replaced with new. Why, because new already has loc-tight on them, lawyers protection clause to install new ones.

They list a torque setting for tightening the disk brake bolts in the manual. If you don't use new bolts with the hard thick layer of locktite like stuff on them,  I'd guess
that the torque listed wouldn't be right... I think the manual is designed so as to be filled with stuff that can be repeated over and over by rote, not by feel or guesswork,
and be right pretty much every time...

I just clean mine, squirt on some blue locktite, and tighten them with my ratchet until they seem OK...

-Mike "details of my flaming death at 11:00..."

[fudgie]

On that visual, i was thinking can someone take a final drive, drive shaft-dry no lube, and hand crank it for awhile and then pull the shaft out after a 'few miles' and see if there is oil in it?

If you can hand crank it at 50-60 miles per hour speed, it would work.  I doubt at low speed it would.

I think the pic says it all.  Just like on my IS, when he took it apart, it was bathed in gear oil.  Easy to see.  Also, gear oil has a pecular odor, and you can tell gear lube from other oils.  It is NOT grease breaking down!

He shows that it works.

MP

How much fluid is lost then? It seems like you would be very low on fluid by the the time you hit 15k miles. How much you think it lost on a 100 mile run? Lets say 1cc per 100 miles. Thats 150cc during that time. Should be empty by then I would think.

Fudgie, there is no oil loss. The pinion cup is sealed by a seal on the rear of the driveshaft.

Redline 

Then wheres it go? it cant all drain back with 2 holes esp if the holes stop at 9 and 3 position. Seems like you would also be bringing in crud and misc debris. That cant be good on the gears.