Final drive lube+

[Varmintmist]

Been up to my butt in alligators, anyway, from the Valk service manual

DRIVE SHAFT ASSEMBLYIINSTALLATION
lnstall the new stopper ring.
lnstall the new oil seal and pack 0.5 g (0.02 oz) of grease onto
the splines.
1 (1) WASHER ,(2) SPRING
lnstall the spring, washer and snap ring.
(4) OIL SEAL I
FINAL DRIVE
Pack 2 g (0.08 or) of molybdenum disulfide grease into the
pinion joint spline.
Install the drive shaft into the pinion joint until the stopper ring
seats in the pinion spline groove.
NOTE
Make sure that the stopper ring is seated properly by
pulling on the drive shaft lightly.
Be careful not to damage the drive shaft oil seal

  pages 12-18, 12-19
You pack the teeth with grease, 2.5 grams, total. Packing does not mean packing it full.
I cant seem to bring over the pics.
Anywho, there wouldnt be a oil seal if there was no oil, now would there be?

[Redline +]

Been up to my butt in alligators, anyway, from the Valk service manual

DRIVE SHAFT ASSEMBLYIINSTALLATION
lnstall the new stopper ring.
lnstall the new oil seal and pack 0.5 g (0.02 oz) of grease onto
the splines.
1 (1) WASHER ,(2) SPRING
lnstall the spring, washer and snap ring.
(4) OIL SEAL I
FINAL DRIVE
Pack 2 g (0.08 or) of molybdenum disulfide grease into the
pinion joint spline.
Install the drive shaft into the pinion joint until the stopper ring
seats in the pinion spline groove.
NOTE
Make sure that the stopper ring is seated properly by
pulling on the drive shaft lightly.
Be careful not to damage the drive shaft oil seal

  pages 12-18, 12-19
You pack the teeth with grease, 2.5 grams, total. Packing does not mean packing it full.
I cant seem to bring over the pics.
Anywho, there wouldnt be a oil seal if there was no oil, now would there be?

All I can tell you is what I found on my 2002. I pulled the final drive for the first time last week, it had never been off, 22,000 miles. The pinion cup and rear driveshaft splines were like new and covered in gear oil. I cleaned, installed a new seal on the shaft, brushed on a light coat of moly grease to the pinion cup and rear driveshaft splines and assembled. Front shaft splines get the moly paste.

It is my opinion, the moly grease is an assembly lube until the gear oil works back into the pinion cup. As you know from reading this thread opinions vary on this subject, you will have to form your own.

Redline 

[Valkpilot]

I happen to fall into the camp that believes that, by design, gear oil (not huge quantities, mind you) migrates into and out of the pinion assembly through those holes.

However, regardless of their purpose, the holes in the bottom of the pinion cup are clearly there for a reason as they are an engineered design, not cheap to machine into the part, and therefore appear to be rather important.

The limited amount of grease called for in the pinion assembly (a gram of grease is about the weight of one paperclip, so 2 to 3 grams isn't a lot) called for by the manual would lead me to believe that packing the pinion cup full is ill advised because of the possiblity of plugging those holes.

I will continue to clean the holes at every rear-drive maintenance, and lube the pinion per the manual.

[vic]

I don't know what "camp" I'm in yet but after reading this entire thread, I'm wondering why the Honda Service Manual doesn't make any reference to paying any attention to these 2 holes if they're so important.   Every time I service the rear end, I follow the Service Manual's directions to the "letter", and considering how detailed Honda is in most of their service instructions, I'm puzzled why these 2 "vent" or "lube holes" are not mentioned at all.

[Varmintmist]

Likely because if you dont pack them with grease and keep the cup inspected, they just spin along happily.

I havent had the time to search the entire manual for mention of the holes, but winters a'comin.

[Sodbuster]

Here's something I'll throw at ya .... have you considered the idea that those two holes are what is referred to in the Tool & Die world as "Tooling Holes" ?!?  There are times when Tooling Holes are used for a secondary tooling operation for more accurate pick-up location.

[98valk]

Here's something I'll throw at ya .... have you considered the idea that those two holes are what is referred to in the Tool & Die world as "Tooling Holes" ?!?  There are times when Tooling Holes are used for a secondary tooling operation for more accurate pick-up location.

could be.
I still contend they are vent holes that work in conjunction with the chrome breather cap on top of the gear case. The nissian and toyota trucks have a similar breather cap that is actually a check valve to keep water and contaminents from entering the gear case when it is cooling down after use.
Must be why the manual warns against deforming the cap when removing.
If the breather cap is clogged or the check valve is stuck then gear oil could enter the pinion cup due to heat expansion or if the wrong level of oil is in the gear case.
 I just pulled mine apart after another 13.6k miles, no oil or rust. What I perceived as some rust at first was actually copper anti-sieze installed by the factory. I coated everthing with moly grease the last time more than the few grams called for and it look the same as the last install. copper anti-sieze is used to prevent galling of splines. This last install I used a coat of the copper anti-sieze and then moly grease TS-65.

[fudgie]

How would it lube or 'cool' when the shaft is spinning? I would think the centrifical force would throw it to the outside and would alow for no movement.

[RLD]

The holes are for lube! Mine were plugged by the dealer early on by using the wrong paste on the propeller shaft and I had nothing but problems until it was fixed. No amount of grease will stay on those splines and the seal will not stay in place. It will be spinning on the shaft in short order if those holes are plugged. Argue all you want, but the proof is obvious. Now, with the holes working properly, the splines are wet with fluid every time I pull the propeller shaft out for inspection every 12-13k miles. As I've ranted in other posts; Low maintenance drive shaft my @@s! It works well, if maintained, but it is not low maintenance. Learn to do this work yourself (it's not hard), hire a VERY trusted mechanic, have a freind teach you, or you will have problems here, guaranteed! This may just be my opinion, but it is formed by 130,000 miles of experience. Nobody touches my bike now unless I'm stranded and have no other choice.

[Ricky-D]

The holes are for lube! Mine were plugged by the dealer early on by using the wrong paste on the propeller shaft and I had nothing but problems until it was fixed. No amount of grease will stay on those splines and the seal will not stay in place. It will be spinning on the shaft in short order if those holes are plugged. Argue all you want, but the proof is obvious. Now, with the holes working properly, the splines are wet with fluid every time I pull the propeller shaft out for inspection every 12-13k miles. As I've ranted in other posts; Low maintenance drive shaft my @@s! It works well, if maintained, but it is not low maintenance. Learn to do this work yourself (it's not hard), hire a VERY trusted mechanic, have a freind teach you, or you will have problems here, guaranteed! This may just be my opinion, but it is formed by 130,000 miles of experience. Nobody touches my bike now unless I'm stranded and have no other choice.

Since you find oil in the pinion cup I have to say that you are probably overfilling the pumpkin. The amount of oil in the pumpkin is less that six ounces.

The pinion cup sits directly on the pinion bearing and the holes in the pinion cup are directly on the inner race of the pinion. And that is the reason for the relief on the holes: So there will be positive equalization between the pinion cup atmosphere and the pumpkin atmosphere.

Honda would not design-in such a haphazard system of lubrication as so many are suggesting on this thread. Get real!

***

[RLD]

Honda would not design-in such a haphazard system of lubrication as so many are suggesting on this thread. Get real!

The same one's who engineered this "Maintenance free" drive shaft? The one I need to tear apart every 12-13000 miles to "maintain"? I fill the rear pumpkin to the spec in the manual and change it yearly with Mobil1. Sorry, but my experience says those holes lube the pinion cup. When they were plugged, the splines were dry every time I tore it apart. No grease could hold up to that force. After 8000 miles, the splines were dry and rusty. Now, with the holes unplugged, they are wet and happy every time I tear it apart.

Wouldn't it be nice if a Honda engineer would answer some of these issues? I, for one, would love to know the real, intended purpose of these things. I am only sharing my experiences and hope it helps someone.

 

[fudgie]

My splines are always still greased and look good at 61k. The bottom of the cup, where the nut is, is slightly rusty.

[98valk]

I wonder how many take the final drive from the bike and tilt it forward while pulling the drive shaft out, thereby allowing the gear oil to flow into the pinion cup through the vent holes. even easier if the gear case is overfilled.
when installed on the bike with the bike in an upright position the pinion cup holes are about 1-2" above the top of the oil level. Gear oil is not designed to move that much up an incline away from the gears which would then not be lubed during operation. bike up right is also the correct way to check and to have correct oil level, not on the kickstand.
Second there is actually very little movement in this spline area if the drive shaft is installed correctly by locking the stopper ring into the pinion cup splines. there is very limited forward to aft movement. Moly grease is all that is required.
Rust? maybe it is actually the copper anti-sieze left over from the factory, can look like rust.

[fudgie]

Seems to me that if oil gets in the pinion and then drains back into the fd, the gears would wear out from the oil carring back in dirt/rust.  ???

[RP#62]

Until a Honda engineer weighs in, we're pretty much just pooling our ignorance.  Good discussion though.
-RP

[98valk]

Until a Honda engineer weighs in, we're pretty much just pooling our ignorance.  Good discussion though.
-RP

yep, same discussions on st1100, FJR and goldwing boards. some BMW except for the new sealed EPA units. The new VFR is sealed. They use higher pressure rated seals to handle the expansion of oil and air during operation.

[fudgie]

Until a Honda engineer weighs in, we're pretty much just pooling our ignorance.  Good discussion though.
-RP

Better then oil and tires! 

[Varmintmist]

Motorcycle Division

American Honda Motor Co., Inc.

P.O. Box 2200

Torrance, CA 90509-2200

Mail stop: 100-4C-7B

Telephone: (866) 784-1870

[simon]

A couple of weeks ago I pulled my rear wheel off to do the double row bearing mod. While I had the wheel off, I thought I might as well check the drive shaft out an re-lube the splines, etc. It was late in the evening when I started so I did not drain the final drive oil when I removed the pumpkin to get the drive shaft out. I was going to re-install it and change the fluid at that time. I got it tore down but decided to wait till the next day to re-assemble it. I propped up the final drive unit where the vent was facing up so the fuid would not leak out but the cup where the driveshaft fits was facing somewhat of an angle down. The next morning I had a pretty good size puddle of oil on the garage floor where it ran out the holes (vents). Long story, short. Oil does come out those holes. What I don't understand is how the oil stays in the cup without leaking out onto the driveshaft. I have a seal on the driveshaft that fits into the cup when you re-install the driveshaft into the final but it is a loose fit and has to be spinning in the cup cause it fits tight around the driveshaft. Go figure?

[Redline +]

Oil does come out those holes. What I don't understand is how the oil stays in the cup without leaking out onto the driveshaft. I have a seal on the driveshaft that fits into the cup when you re-install the driveshaft into the final but it is a loose fit and has to be spinning in the cup cause it fits tight around the driveshaft. Go figure?

The oil to the pinion cup is limited or metered by the oil pickup hole and the amount of oil available to it, not a constant flow as you had on your bench. On the bench, you were over filling the cup and the shaft was no longer centered compromising the seal.

The seal doesn't spin inside the cup, it spins with the cup and driveshaft.

These are my opinions only and others will disagree.

Redline   

[Sodbuster]

The oil to the pinion cup is limited or metered by the oil pickup hole and the amount of oil available to it, not a constant flow as you had on your bench. On the bench, you were over filling the cup and the shaft was no longer centered compromising the seal.

The seal doesn't spin inside the cup, it spins with the cup and driveshaft.

These are my opinions only and others will disagree.

Redline   

Makes sense to me ....

Is the seal the only thing holding the drive shaft in the pinion cup ??  And I'm assuming it's a good idea to replace that seal whenever you remove the shaft to check the pinion cup grease ??  How hard is it to remove the seal ??


Varmintmist photo


 

[98valk]

Oil does come out those holes. What I don't understand is how the oil stays in the cup without leaking out onto the driveshaft. I have a seal on the driveshaft that fits into the cup when you re-install the driveshaft into the final but it is a loose fit and has to be spinning in the cup cause it fits tight around the driveshaft. Go figure?

The oil to the pinion cup is limited or metered by the oil pickup hole and the amount of oil available to it, not a constant flow as you had on your bench. On the bench, you were over filling the cup and the shaft was no longer centered compromising the seal.

The seal doesn't spin inside the cup, it spins with the cup and driveshaft.

These are my opinions only and others will disagree.

Redline   

question?

which has more movement, this includes forward to aft sliding motion and rotation movement, the drive shaft where it enters the U-joint or the pinion end of the drive shaft in the pinion cup?

it can't be the pinion end to pinion cup since there is a stopper ring on the end of the drive shaft pinion gear that locks it in place in the pinion cup greatly restricting forward to aft sliding movement. reason why honda only requires moly grease.

it is the drive shaft to U-joint, has the greatest amount of forward to aft sliding movement. reason why honda only requires moly grease. A gear oil splash is not available and there is no problem.

So if honda only requires grease on an assembly that has lots of movement and not gear oil for lubrication then WHY would an assembly (pinion cup/drive shaft) with almost zero movement require gear oil and grease?

most if not all drive shaft yokes which have splines for trucks, older rear wheel drive cars and construction equipment only require grease, no gear oil splash is ever used.

I have had my final drive and drive shaft apart twice now and neither time has there been any gear oil in the pinion cup, just the moly grease I put in there from the last time. Both times the final drive oil level was check with the bike in an upright position as per the manual. The last time I bench filled it with exactly the require 5.1 oz and then checked the level when installed. Oil poured out about 1/2 oz until it was level with the fill hole.
When I pull the drive shaft out it was always at an upward angle as installed.

I think I've said enough on this issue and probably most are glad about that. 

[Varmintmist]

The movement is more on the pinion joint because it deals with angle changes in the joint where the other end of the drive shaft is stable (left rt up down), and the universal joint does the moving. The pinion joint is made to flex and the shaft is loose. The other end (universal) would deal with the lateral (in out) of the drive shaft with the spring on that end keeping it snugged into the pinion joint.

[Redline +]

The oil to the pinion cup is limited or metered by the oil pickup hole and the amount of oil available to it, not a constant flow as you had on your bench. On the bench, you were over filling the cup and the shaft was no longer centered compromising the seal.

The seal doesn't spin inside the cup, it spins with the cup and driveshaft.

These are my opinions only and others will disagree.

Redline   

Makes sense to me ....

Is the seal the only thing holding the drive shaft in the pinion cup ??  And I'm assuming it's a good idea to replace that seal whenever you remove the shaft to check the pinion cup grease ??  How hard is it to remove the seal ?
 

You should be able to work the seal off by hand. Some lube on the new seal and carefully press on with your fingers. That's what I do anyway...YMMV.

Redline 

[Sodbuster]

Thanks for the good info .... If you don't mind me asking where'd you get the valkyrie pdf manual ??

Also, when removing the DS from the pinion cup does a person have to pull on it to unsnap it from the ring or how does that work ??

sorry for all the questions .... haven't removed one before

[X Ring]

Thanks for the good info .... If you don't mind me asking where'd you get the valkyrie pdf manual ??

You'll find the manual here.  http://valkyrienorway.com/

Marty

[Varmintmist]

When I bought the 97 from ptgb, he gave me a copy of the manual on disk. I kept it even though I wrecked the bike.  That and The Clymers I have can get me in lots of trouble. Clymers has more "how" in it. Man has parts break downs.

You just take the drive shaft and wiggle it gently left and right, up and down while pulling and it will pop out.

Let me see if I have a empty disk, and the ability to burn a copy.

[Sodbuster]

I was able to download the Manual from Dags website .... Thanks for the heads up !!  WOW, took a while to download.

[X Ring]

Yeah, but it's worth it.  I've got both the paper and electronic versions.  I use the paper for research and print out the appropriate pages so I don't mess up the book.

Marty

[valkyriemc]

o-rings do not have to be changed every tire change unless they are have cracks, are loose indicating they are streched and/or they are showing wear such as not rounded with a flat spot/s and are lower or level with the metal surface next to it.
the manual also calls for the oil seal and the stopper ring to be replaced on the drive shaft.

I HIGHLY recommend you reread pages 12-16,  14-7 and 14-8 of the Honda Shop Manual.  For each O Ring it says to pack molybdenum disulfide paste into the O-Ring Groove and then coat a NEW O Ring with molydenum disulfide paste and install it into the groove.

Every time I have removed my rear wheel I have found at least one O Ring at least flattened.  A couple of bucks for new O Rings is very cheap insurance to prevent your lube of choice from drying out and causing premature wheel flange/final drive wear.  Matt at Carolina Bike and Trike sells 5 sets of the 3 O Rings for $16.50 including shipping.  That's what?  $3.30 per wheel r&r?   

Marty
   

No doubt...

[98valk]

o-rings do not have to be changed every tire change unless they are have cracks, are loose indicating they are streched and/or they are showing wear such as not rounded with a flat spot/s and are lower or level with the metal surface next to it.
the manual also calls for the oil seal and the stopper ring to be replaced on the drive shaft.

I HIGHLY recommend you reread pages 12-16,  14-7 and 14-8 of the Honda Shop Manual.  For each O Ring it says to pack molybdenum disulfide paste into the O-Ring Groove and then coat a NEW O Ring with molydenum disulfide paste and install it into the groove.

Every time I have removed my rear wheel I have found at least one O Ring at least flattened.  A couple of bucks for new O Rings is very cheap insurance to prevent your lube of choice from drying out and causing premature wheel flange/final drive wear.  Matt at Carolina Bike and Trike sells 5 sets of the 3 O Rings for $16.50 including shipping.  That's what?  $3.30 per wheel r&r?   

Marty
   

Lets see, did I not say if there is damage or they are flat then change them?

I guess u follow the manual all of the time, doing 8k mile oil changes and changing out your tires every 6-8k miles as the manual requires. 





No doubt...

[hubcapsc]

and changing out your tires every 6-8k miles as the manual requires.

Yes. 

-Mike "and they're worn out, too..."