MultiPoint Upgrade projects: Updated 3-24-13

[fordmano]

Well I had typed this all out then my browser crashed so I lost all that I wrote.

I decided to get something taken care of while I wait to figure out my Carb/intake problem, I will get that thread added into this one when I get it all done. (this may take a while probably a week or more still)

So I managed to find a few minutes lying around so I stole them, and got another little task taken care of.

I took instruction from others before me on this great VRCC forum, on how to fix those pesky striped out fairing screw inserts.

So I started with a paper plate as my mixing platter for my J-B Weld and also a place to store my spreader stick for the Never-Seez.
I made sure the little pockets that the inserts sit in were all clean then I applied a little never seize to the threads of the 2 screws I needed to fix and then partially filled the hole for the insert and lightly screwed the screw into the prepared insert and then gently taped it into the pocket now I let it sit and wait for the J-B Weld to dry.

And here are my supplies, Can of must be 40+ year old Never-seez I got from my Dads garage back when I was in High School and a set of recently purchased J-B Weld tubes.

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And now the finished product.

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I apologize for the poor picture quality I was in a hurry and did not preview the pictures before I finished up and uploaded the pictures.

[fordmano]

Ok got back on my Multi point project yesterday, what in the HE!! Did I mess up?

Bike will start on full choke.
Bike will not start at all without choke.
Bike will only rev up while choke is on and you have to twist off and on and it stumbles real hard till it gets up to around 2500-3000+
Sounds and feels like at least 2 cylinders are completely cutting out almost like a coil is wired wrong or firing order is off.
Idle is a bit rough.
When you twist the throttle it almost feels like it is running out of fuel.
When it dies out it knocks loudly and seems almost like you can hear a missfire.
Air screws were set to 1-3/4 I believe.
Can't think of anything that has changed since I got the carbs rebuilt and reinstalled I had done a quick synch mostly to test my synch setup. It ran just about perfect at that time, but that was also without any load (no load at this time either).

Only thing I can remember and I can't remember exact timing 2 rear coils were un-wired if it was before or after I took the video of it running the day I installed the CARBS after rebuild.

Ok I am headed back out there and I will swap leads on the two rear coils and report back what happens. Thinking this might be the place to start.
Feeling like a real dumb butt if it's the coil wires.

[fordmano]

Ok a found one problem, the front coils seems to have been wired backwards.
I don't remember touching that coil since the CARBS went back in but whatever, I guess I monkeyed with it at some point.

Still will not idle without choke, revs up now but is still got a stumble but no pops or backfires or knocks.

I sill set the tank back in place so I can't blame it on fuel supply to the carb banks.

Be back shortly.

I will add all of this to my project later instead of taking so much time to go in and out of this thread..

[fordmano]

Just pulled into the garage at the office, I will post up the video so y'all can hear what I am talking about.

Give me about 1/2 hour or so.

Thanks,
Matt

[fordmano]

Ok I hope this video posts ok from Photobucket.

[fordmano]

Ok I took a few seconds and did some spraying around everything (used starting fluid).

I found that there was a increase of RPM's and seemed to smooth out a bit when I sprayed near the body of 4 of the 6 carbs.

Looks like I will need to pull them out again.

[fordmano]

First, I'd check all the black hose clamps on the rubber parts from the airbox down. Then I'd check the chrome air intakes at the cylinder head, make sure they're snug. And for what it's worth, some of us have even forgot to install an O ring between the intake and the head when reinstalling the carbs. 

[fordmano]

Best I can tell it seems like it might be related to the "Air cutoff valve", I installed as per instructions the entire O-ring kit from Red Eye so I am sure well I am hoping it is something I did and not the product. Never heard anything bad before about Red Eye or Rich.

[fordmano]

Yep I checked that all the clamps were tight above and below the carb bodies. I did have a hell of a time getting them rubber boots back on from the airbox to the carb throat. I had one O-ring at the head that I was worried about but when I sprayed around it no change so I dont think thats the problem.

The only area that made a change when sparyed was around the body of the carbs.

[fordmano]

Here are the pictures of the Airbox to carb throat rubber and clamp.













Do any of them look too far out of wack like they might be part of the problem at all, I figure I am getting an air leak since when I pull full choke that cuts out the regular intake air a bit and richens the mixture.

[fordmano]

fordmano........i'm not trying to be a dumb a$$, but it really does sound, or rather act like the slow jets might be crapped up.  the hose clamps look to be okay, but try looking with a flashlight from the right side to the left, and from the left side to the right........looking across to the back of the hoses that connect to the carb body make sure all of the rubber hose is down, and none have crimped up under the clamp.....this will cause a problem too.  you didn't say whether you have de-smoged this engine or not.....irregardless look at the plugs, and hoses connecting to the back of the intake manifolds (the 6 chrome tubes), and make sure there are no cracks etc..  besides the possibility of maybe slow jet problems this problem is going to be something minor or stupid that you have just overlooked.  good luck.

[fordmano]

fordmano........i'm not trying to be a dumb a$$, but it really does sound, or rather act like the slow jets might be crapped up.  the hose clamps look to be okay, but try looking with a flashlight from the right side to the left, and from the left side to the right........looking across to the back of the hoses that connect to the carb body make sure all of the rubber hose is down, and none have crimped up under the clamp.....this will cause a problem too.  you didn't say whether you have de-smoged this engine or not.....irregardless look at the plugs, and hoses connecting to the back of the intake manifolds (the 6 chrome tubes), and make sure there are no cracks etc..  besides the possibility of maybe slow jet problems this problem is going to be something minor or stupid that you have just overlooked.  good luck.

Just did the De-Smog, I guess it could be the Slows it has been sitting for a bit since the De-Smog. I just changed them out with 38's but I also bumped the mains to 105's (I know this is not the mains due to it getting a bit clearer at higher RPM). I will get out my trusty mirror tomorrow and take a look at the rear side of the rubber boots and clamps.
I did run her for a few minutes after the De-Smog but that was with the air box competly out of the bike and it seemed to run well then, I sure hope the slows don't have to come back out again.

[fordmano]

I guess the air box comes back out again and recheck what I did with the De-Smog maybe I plugged something that should be plugged up or unplugged something that should be plugged, all hoses that hold vacuum or pressure other than the main fuel line are all new.

[fordmano]

When you do a de-smog there will be a hole in the airbox that will need to be closed off.

The rubber connectors between the airbox and the carburetors are indexed so it is important to notice this at the carburetor connection. Air could be infiltrating if things are not correct. Same with the clamps!

This could be the reason for the reaction with the starter fluid!

***

[fordmano]

Re. reinstalling the airbox, here's a FWIW on how I do it. I first loosen the hose clamps enough to slide them up above the collar they clamp to. I get the box pretty much into position, then replace the filter and lid. Get out a ratchet strap, place a short piece of 2x4 on the airbox lid and pass the strap over it and connect to the horizontal section of the engine guard. Then ratchet it down, pulling the airbox into place and holding it there. You now have two hands free to do whatever is needed to make certain the rubber hoses are in place. Use an inspection mirror to check behind the carbs to be sure no hoses are curled up as stated above. They often will catch on the top of the carb in back, so just raise the front lip and run a long skinny screwdriver around the top to slip them on correctly. After all is in place, then lower the clamps and tighten. After all is bolted down, then remove the strap and nothing will move.

[fordmano]

When you do a de-smog there will be a hole in the airbox that will need to be closed off.
This could be the reason for the reaction with the starter fluid!

***

Yep took care of that by using the Red-Eye Regular De-Smog kit

Thank you sir, I just rolled out of the bed gotta go pickup my youngest at school I will be back checking the bike in about an hour.

[fordmano]

Re. reinstalling the airbox, here's a FWIW on how I do it. I first loosen the hose clamps enough to slide them up above the collar they clamp to. I get the box pretty much into position, then replace the filter and lid. Get out a ratchet strap, place a short piece of 2x4 on the airbox lid and pass the strap over it and connect to the horizontal section of the engine guard. Then ratchet it down, pulling the airbox into place and holding it there. You now have two hands free to do whatever is needed to make certain the rubber hoses are in place. Use an inspection mirror to check behind the carbs to be sure no hoses are curled up as stated above. They often will catch on the top of the carb in back, so just raise the front lip and run a long skinny screwdriver around the top to slip them on correctly. After all is in place, then lower the clamps and tighten. After all is bolted down, then remove the strap and nothing will move.

Very close to the method I used. Used a ratchet strap and a board to put plenty of down ward pressure, I even lightly spray lubed the throats so the boots will slide on easier. Now I have to go back and use the mirror and a flashlight to verify they are all the way down on the backside.

Thanks,

[fordmano]

Hey Matt, if you've checked that the hoses from the airbox ar no rolled in the back where you can't see them, or that the airbox hole isn't plugged, ie if you definitely don't have vacume leaks, I would try some Techron, especially if the bike sat for a while and the slows weren't cleaned. Some crud could have been dislodged form the fuel lines during your work.
Maybe the carb gods will smile on you 

[fordmano]

Mine ran especially rough after the carb rebuild, until I synced them.

might check the vacume line coming off the pitcock, make sure it is hooked up in the right place. I have seen people hook it up on the little stub insted of where it belongs.

[fordmano]

Hey Matt, if you've checked that the hoses from the airbox ar no rolled in the back where you can't see them, or that the airbox hole isn't plugged, ie if you definitely don't have vacume leaks, I would try some Techron, especially if the bike sat for a while and the slows weren't cleaned. Some crud could have been dislodged form the fuel lines during your work.
Maybe the carb gods will smile on you 

I just did that this evening, well I used Seafoam, I pulled the carb bowl drains and made sure they were empty, dumped a entire can into the tank probably only about 2 gallons of gasoline only aboout 3 weeks old at the very most. Started the bike and let it idle for a few minutes after making sure I opened the drains again and then shut them to make sure they really had fuel in the bowls and a full load of seafoam in each carb. Ran it a second time an hour or so later then ran it again about 2 hours after that still no change. I will start it up when I get up tomorrow.

[fordmano]

Mine ran especially rough after the carb rebuild, until I synced them.

 I wish I could get it running well enough to even bother to put the synch guages in place it will barely idle at all, if I feather the throttle I can get it up over 2,500rpm but it is exhuast popping and rough real bad. Take the choke off by just a tiny bit then it dies at any RPM.

[fordmano]

might check the vacume line coming off the pitcock, make sure it is hooked up in the right place. I have seen people hook it up on the little stub insted of where it belongs.

That vacuum line is GONE GONE GONE, manual Pingel is in place now and a plug cap is covering that nipple on the intake were the vacuum originally came from.

[fordmano]

Still running things through me teeny little peanut brain.

Is there a difference when doing the De-Smog from leaving the purge tubes connected to the 6 way manifold deal they originally were attached too? compaired to just leaving them open or caping them all off completly?

In the write up in shop talk it sad there seems to be difference between individual bikes but seems least likely to cause any issue if they are left connected too each other then the manifold gets caped off, I capped each off individually trying to free up as muh space and eliminiating as many possible vacuum leak areas as possible. Will having each caped individually cause too much individual carburator back pressure and not allow the fuel bowl to fill up completly? kind of like a VAPOR lock like we used to get on old cars when the fuel in the line would cook/boil or just have to run uphill too far?

I did leave the fuel bowl drain hoses in place connected to each other and also left the air vent tubes attached to each other and then open to atmosphere and ran the single tube down the back of the motor like it was originaly.

I did remove the Charcoal cannister so that is why the Purge tubes are capped and the vent tube s go to open air.

[fordmano]

Why can't the Air Vent tubes and the Purge tubes be routed back into the airbox so that any excess fuel vapor is pulled back into the motor when running and if the volume is extreme then the drain on the airbox should handle most conditions like that.

Am I thinking way out of line on this direction?

[fordmano]

Do you have an external fuel filter, and is it installed in the correct orientation?

[fordmano]

Nope no external fuel filter, I did install a Dan-Marc electric fuel shut off valve and wired it to a relay that is only powered when the key is in the ON/Run position and yes you can here the Dan-Marc valve click wheh the key is turn to the ON/RUN position..

I think I will pull the airbox back out remove the fuel valve and try running it again, seemed to run ok when I first installed the carbs after the rebuild and did a real quick carb synch mainly to see if the guages would actually work properly and they did and the bike seemed to run normal at that time.

I know many have used the Dan-Marc valve but it sure seemed to have a very small orifice compaired to the fuel line size. The electric valve seemed like a good safety idea but maybe it is too restrictive or maybe I got sent a poorly performing one. I will verify function and get back with update.

[fordmano]

I haven't seen one but I've heard the Dan-Marc orfice is small. Still it seems very doubtful that could cause a problem at idle.
Individual vacume nipple caps won't cause any problems, mine are that way.

[fordmano]

Update: all 6 carbs are getting fuel, I pulled the drain hoses so I could see how much fuel would come out and see if they looked equal. Yes they all had about what seemed like the same amount of fuel.

I pulled the air box no change at all.
pulled all the purge tube caps no change, ran them all together closed off from atmosphere no change, same when open to atmosphere, verified all the air vent lines were open no change closed all of them no change, ran them all together no change, ran them together open and closed off no change ran the air vent together and attached that to the purge tubes no change then did that again with an open line no change.
So I sprayed ether around the air shutoff valve again and it still smoothes out and revs up a bit,,, looks like 4 of my air cutoff valves may be bad or damaged or at least the o-ring got messed up when I installed them.  So the carbs are coming back off tomorrow and I will be ordering another O-Ring kit from Red-Eye and a couple sets of the vacuum caps. Looks like the Cruise control install is on hold for now, until I get the bike to run right at least. I think I will go ahead and order a factory Pro jet kit and just go with the known as tested by the Pro's.   I am thinking that the new jets are either or both wrong sized or damaged or at least clogged up bad.


Thanks a bunch guys for offering your vast experience, it is appreciated greatly.

Now I fall back and figure out what has gone wrong in those carbs. Sure wish the top of the frame was sectioned so it was not so damn difficult to pull the carbs on and off multiple times.

[fordmano]

So I sprayed ether around the air shutoff valve again and it still smoothes out and revs up a bit,,, looks like 4 of my air cutoff valves may be bad or damaged or at least the o-ring got messed up when I installed them

I don't know what you refer to when you say "air cutoff valves"

Is that some parts still left on the motor when you did a de-smog?

Barring a vacuum line to the petcock, are all the vacuum port barbs on the intake risers blocked now?

The remark about how the motor responds when you spray ether indicates a vacuum leak.

***

[fordmano]

The Air cut off valves are the little black plastic thing on the side of teh carburetor body that runs from about center line of carb and has a short rubber tube attached about 1.5" long.

All the vacuum test ports the little nipples near the bottom of each intake runner close to the head these all have new to this project rubber vacuum caps installed.

Manual Pingel petcock installed

[fordmano]

Ok, I know to what you refer.

Yep, there have at times been reports about vacuum leaks at that particular location. Mainly limited to hoses degrading.

Still, it's a vacuum leak that's giving the problem.

***

[fordmano]

Yep absolutely agree sounds acts and feels like a vacuum leak now injust have to find it and figure out how to cure it.

Man this SUCKS butt, almost done and aching to ride, sure wish I hade a second bike so I could get my head back on straight.

I priced out those little Air Cut valves,, oh my gosh they are pricey. ((( EDITED: 4-5-2011, these air cut valves are actually listed as $47.85 or $48.00 each)))  around $24 each and bike is acting like 4 are leaking. I am pulling the carbs back of in a little bit and I guess see what I can see.

Thanks all of you for your ideas & suggestions I really appreciate it.

Thanks,
Matt

[fordmano]

Update 4-6-2011:

I managed to get the carb rack out last night, I pulled #5 carb one that I sprayed and the idle changed figured it's at the end of the row and it show problems good place to start.
Well the Air-cut valve seems to test out just like instructions from Red-Eye says it should. Damn, ok so tha valve itself is not the problem. Is there anyway to test the O-rings that seal those Cur-Valve?

Jets are NOT clogged at all on this carb, can't find any type of crack or hole in any part of this carb, not sure if this is good news yet or not.

I ordered every rubber part that Red-Eye offers, fingers crossed I find something wrong otherwise I have just a prayer that it magically goes away.
I might order new carb to intake rubber boots from EBay they are $60 I guess it's a reasonable investment.

I will be back with how each carb checks out.

One question does anyone use any type of glue/silicone/sealer or anything else to hold any of the gaskets or o-rings in place or to ensure a good seal. I normally don't but looks like the dealer did when these were worked on 5 years ago.

[fordmano]

Air cut valve on #3 seems to leak a little bit when tested as per Red-Eye test procedure. So it looks like I will be ordering some of these damn valves.

Damn, Damn, Damn!!! Oh well it's just money right? I guess I will make some more.

[fordmano]

Thanks for keeping the thread current.  I'm finding it very interesting.  What part(s) did you buy from Red-eye that gave you instructions for testing the air-cut valve?  And how *DO* you test it?

[fordmano]

Thanks for keeping the thread current.  I'm finding it very interesting.  What part(s) did you buy from Red-eye that gave you instructions for testing the air-cut valve?  And how *DO* you test it?

Well Chiefy, I purchased the entire O-Ring kit from Red-Eye. (Again I am not accusing or blaming or pointing any finger at Red-Eye or his product or his instructions for any type of failure at this point)
Here are the pictures of the parts related to the Air Cut valves.





 Here is the instructions typed out for you.

This is listed on side 1 of the instructions list that came with the O-Ring kit,
Suggestions: Tools, Solvents and Methods.
((Skipped the not related items at this point))
 Test your Air Cut Valves. Use your Mity Vac to apply vacuum to the valve's nipple, shown next to the rubber tube shown on Bag J. Temprarily connect one of the short tubes (from Bag J) to the palstic nose of the Air Cut Valve, shown on Bag A, and blow in it. It will direct your breath back at you, through the hole that holds the brass tube, shown on Bag B. When you apply 14"-15" Hg vacuum to the Air Cut Valve nipple, the valve should shut and deprive you of your breath. 15" HG requires at least two pumps on the Mity Vac. If an Air Cut Valve is leaky, buy a new one from Honda.



Looks like out of the first 2 valve testes 1 has a very small leak so looks like I will be buying at least 1 of these valves, Might just order all of them new and be done with it but it is hard to seperate $150.xx plus and shipping from my wallet this week.

Thanks all, updates will be posted as they become available.

[fordmano]

WOW!! I just looked at the Hollister Honda parts fiche again and decided to order the carb boots (between carb and intake runner) from them instead of the ones from Ebay, for  a couple reasons I am hoping the factory original ones will be exactly correct fit and made of quality material as the originals were. And I know the guys at Hollister Honda so I know I will get what I need and if it is wrong they will make it correct immediately.  And they also happen to be a couple dollars less for the set even with shipping.

Now the Air cut valves I originally listed the price as $24.xx well I must have read it incorrectly since today it shows that they are $47.85 or $48.00 no idea why they have 2 prices listed maybe different years? So I will NOT be ordering any until I figure out exactly how many I need that will not be a part I can afford to have any spares right now.

[fordmano]

Ok a found one problem, the front coils seems to have been wired backwards.
I don't remember touching that coil since the CARBS went back in but whatever, I guess I monkeyed with it at some point.

Still will not idle without choke, revs up now but is still got a stumble but no pops or backfires or knocks.

I sill set the tank back in place so I can't blame it on fuel supply to the carb banks.

Be back shortly.

to my project later instead of taking so much time to go in and out of this thread...

Ok, I’m sort of an older rider who loves to begin with the eliminating the simple things. I hate to say it but it sounds like you might simply have a tank of bad fuel. Since we are now all slaves to running ethanol in our fuel, I have found that even running lower amounts such as 5% (yes amounts vary), I need to take more time warming up especially when it is colder out. I also know that since ethanol attracts moisture, we can’t just let the Valks sit now for extended periods of time without the moisture settling in the bottom of the tank. When you fire it up the only way that it will run is by using the choke to richen it up. Back off the choke and the engine dies due to the moisture in the bowls. One can’t help but wonder when they have had no problems with fuel that they have purchased in the past, why now? If the fuel with ethanol at the station is low in their service tanks, moisture bonds together and you end up pumping it right in. There are inexpensive fuel testers out there (pilot supplies) that work well to test the amount of ethanol you have. I try to use fuel that is fresh as much as possible these days.

Just my opinion, but it might be worth the time to dump the fuel from the tank (all of it) as well as the bowls and get some fresh high test fuel. If this takes care of the problem you might want to purchase some StarTron Enzyme Fuel Treatment to counter the effects of ethanol. I need to run it in every vehicle I have now. I know some are going to challenge using any kind of additive but I have been using it in my old Mercedes, BMW, Corvette, Porsche and the Valkyrie for about 4-5 months and I can only state what I have experienced; shorter warm ups, better acceleration and better mileage.

Good luck.

[fordmano]

Thank you for your input there "Airetime",


I don't think we have as much of that ethanol crap as others across the country out here in Kalifornistan, although I guess it could be partially bad fuel related but the fuel I was using was at most 4-5 weeks old and was 92octane dealing with only 2-2.5 gallons and I added an entire can of seafoam after the initial failure to run properly.

I was able to get an improvement of idle and carefully roll the throttle to raise RPM when I sprayed the sides near the Air Cut valves on 4 out of 6 carbs with ether(starting fluid spray) as if the O-rings were not sealing properly so I am just going to start there and replace all the O-rings again (just did this with the O-ring kit from Red-Eye) I figure I messed up the O-rings some how during assembly.

[fordmano]

This last post brings me to a question of opinion,,,,

The instructions from Red-Eye suggests you use either SeaFoam or Marvel mystery oil as the lubricant for installing the new O-rings,, I just read on another thread that  atleast one person suggested you use Dielectric grease I think is was CA ExhaustCoatings... I happend to have used SeaFoam since I had a few cans on hand during the carb rebuild. I guess I might try something different this time.

coat the new o-rings with silicone grease AKA dielectric grease before assembly.

Ok so talk amoungst your selfs then share with us all your opinion and why you would choose that product as the lubricant for installing carb O-rings.

Thanks,
Matt