Had to plug a tire...

[MarkT]

For the first time in 200,000 miles.  Been lucky, no doubt.  The just-installed Avon Cobra 200 was punctured by something large which was promptly thrown out & I never saw it.  Rolling About 60 and something's wrong.  There's a lot of rolling friction when I roll off the throttle - it slows too quickly.  Am I dragging my foot on the brake again?  Nope.  I just replaced the bearings with the back tire - seems like they are seizing, what the f?  Steering seems normal, going straight.  Wife is signalling from behind me - hmmm she must see something, could only be a flat.  Pulled onto the shoulder and rolled off the throttle.  Yep I can feel it now, tire's flat.

That was odd.  The tire sidewall is so stiff that it holds the bike up almost like there's air in it.  We are only a couple miles from the house so I take the wife's Magna to go get the truck & trailer.  Grab the air tank while I'm at it.  Get back, go to put some air in the tire from the tank - loud hissing, it leaks out as fast as I put it in.  Large hole, big as a pencil.  OK load the bike on the trailer.  

Next day, plug the tire with a string plug, take the tool box and my air hose and ride the bike to the car parts store to buy some plug/patch combo repair patches.  Get about 10 miles and the tire throws the plug.  Crap.  Pull off and replug it.  Meanwhile a KLR rider stops by to see if I need help.  He says, "i like to think I'm pretty knowledgable on bikes - but what is that thing you're riding?  Never seen one."  Hmm, he's not watching very close, I see Valks around here almost daily.  I tell him it's a Valk, basically Honda's Gold Wing in a Hot Rod version they only made for 7 yrs.  I said pretty bulletproof, you've never seen me on the side of the road until now - and it's a tire problem not the bike.  He said yeah, well it's a Honda that figures.  After he was satisfied I had it under control, Dave went on his way and I finished airing it up and continued on to the car parts store.  Only put in about 20 lbs, as 40 seems to push out the plug. Stopped at Napa, Checker and Auto Zone.  No plug/patches.  Car Quest had it.

Today I pulled the tire and followed the directions exactly.  Removed the plug.  Buffed the inside of the tire, left it nicely roughened.  Blew out the tire and wiped it for good measure.  Applied the rubber cement to the inside, rough area, worked it into the rubber with the stitcher wheel and let it dry.   Removed the adhesive cover on the patch and inserted the plug, pulling the patch down evenly.  Thoroughly stitched the patch from center out with a NAPA tire patch stitcher tool. Waited for the patch to "relax", then cut off the excess plug.  Installed the tire, which is now "ready to use" per the instructions.  Except when I sprayed soapy water on the outside at the plug, it bubbled.

What the f?

About all I can think of is, there's a delamination inside the tire (which I looked for but did not see).  And the air is travelling between the laminations and exiting at the plug, where I DID NOT add any rubber cement with this plug/patch combo (per the instructions) - like I did with the string plug (per the instructions).

It seems to me, the gooey string plug is much better at sealing the hole, than the rubber plug built onto the patch is.  It took a good effort to remove the string plug - it was really stuck in there.

I ran to town to pick up another plug/patch combo (there's only one large one per kit)  But Car Quest had closed at 4 when I got there at 4:30.

I'm thinking, if I'm to save this tire, I should remove the tire/plug combo, and install a string plug and a separate patch.

FYI this is a new tire. Not even 200 miles on it yet.  I'm not throwing it away if I don't have to.  I am not concerned about horror stories of Avons delaminating - it's never happened to me and I've worn out quite a few of them.  But it's possible I weakened the laminations as I probably rode on it while flat for perhaps 500 yds or so until I realized it was flat, and that may be what I'm seeing with this patch/plug leaking.  If I can't even tell it's flat right away, I'm not worried about it suddenly going flat and causing a loss of control.  Apparently the stiff sidewalls will hold me up for awhile while it flattens, without handling degrading suddenly.  The bike is solo'd - I'm not risking anyone's safety but my own by riding on a patched tire.  And lastly - NO I don't want to hear about the wonderful "darkside" soln.  Been there, and it's not for me.

Any comments, on a properly plug/patched tire still leaking - was it hidden delaminations?  Any reason not to use a seperate plug & patch, since the string plugs seam to seal but the rubber/patch combo doesn't?

Thx.

[Daniel Meyer]

You have to be careful with the Avons...the inner lining is the air-proof part...and when you buff for a patch you have to be very careful you don't go through it or you'll have the problem you describe. Basically you only want to rough it up...you can't even really take the "ribs" off *outside* of the patch area or the tire will leak.

Mounting them too...if you ding that inner liner very hard with a slip of a tool the tire will lose air and may eventually delaminate.

In your case I'd pull the tire and see how much area is buffed outside your patch area...if it looks like you buffed it "good" (LOL) outside the patch, I'd slap a patch over the mess, being careful to only rough up the area of the patch and not go through that thin layer.

If that doesn't do it...scrap it and get another tire.

If it doesn't look like you might have gone through the lining...I'd look carefully at the rest of the inside of the tire for little blisters/cracks...if it ran low very long before it threw the object it could have gotten hot and damaged itself. It's usually subtle indicators...but if it has, it's no good for you...except for a tire swing.

It's a pet peeve of mine...the crappy construction of these things...and the Avon's my favorite LOL!

[Rio Wil]

If the hole is large enough to spit out two plugs I would not use the tire no matter what kind of patch is put on in the inside.  The cords have been "relaxed" at the puncture due to the size of whatever the object was.......take the loss and get another one. I am a fan of using plugs, but only if the hole is a "tight" puncture.

[Garland]

Maybe one of the mushroom-type (Stop-N-Go) plugs would hold...

[MarkT]

Thanks for the insight on the Avon construction, Dan.  Didn't know that.  I've been meaning to get a 90° "professional" die grinder and get those 2" surface prep sander pads for it - the tool you see the mechanics on the Spike channel (4X4 Extreme, Trucks, etc) using - this gave me the excuse.  The "professional" air tools at Harbor Freight are much better than the cheapos - much more torque, actually last a long time.  They have a 90° die grinder with a LED light on it - pretty useful inside a tire.  Anyway, the tool did a nice job roughing up the inside.  Pretty sure I didn't go through a layer - but who knows how thin it is. It's possible there is some damage on the inside liner from flexing - I did see some marks on inspection which could indicate hidden damage.  Don't know how long the tire ran flat but it was less than a half mile where I had turned onto the road I was on.  I felt the tire sidewall immediately after stopping and it was warm but not hot.

Rio - the tire spit ONE plug not 2.   Didn't spit the 2nd plug after I put in lower pressure and later it took a lot of effort to pull it out.  It was REALLY adhered in the hole.

Garland - I'll see about getting some Stop-n-Go mushroom plugs in my kit.  I did install a patch/plug combo and the air is leaking past it anyway.  Apparently through the edge of the hole after leaking between laminations.

On this tire I'm going to get some Ride-On sealant and see if it saves the tire.  They claim they have corrosion inhibiters, while the product is actually good for the tire as well as not interfering with tire repairs and acts as a hydrodynamic balancer. It's also water-soluble. And they have letters from tire makers saying the product does not void warranties.  Anyway, it seems at this point this may be the best way to save the tire.

On my next tire - I also have had great success with E-3 tires.  Unfortunately it's not available in 200 width which I really like - for no good reason, just style I'm thinking.  Though I will add this - changing from a completely worn out 200 tire to a brand new one results in no change to the feel - unlike a 180 tire.  Must be, a new 200 tire is wide enough that the center of "lift" is about the same as the center on a worn tire with a flat spot.

[fudgie]

I'm not sold on slime or ride on yet. To me, I want to know if I got a hole in my tire. A blow out as a resualt from a hole I got 2 months ago and didnt realize it was there, would really suck.

[fstsix]

Plugs ? in Motorcycle tires ? Not meaning to bust your ba!!s , 2001 just bought the Valk new..30 days got a nail in the rear  been riding sense 1966...the plug kit i keep is for just as you described....to get ya home...My thoughts were the same,,,New tire brand new bike...just patch and plug the New tire...Or just bite the bullet and replace...I replaced the tire knowing my riding style and..200 bucks it just ain't worth my life..Btw i was still Pi$$ed.. just my 2 cents.

[Challenger]

Had the same thing happen to my like new Metzler. something punctured it and was gone by the time I got stopped, string plug got me 40 miles home and never lost any air, But, being saftey minded I removed tire and used a plug patch, still leaked, removed and patched again, still leaked, removed Metz and installed new Bridgstone, I spread the beads apart, wire wheeled the area and  did a more careful Inspection of tire and found the the hole was actually triangular in shape and found a wire sticking out. Tossed it in the trash.   

[MarkT]

You guys do what you gotta do.  We all make decisions based on our own values and judgments.  I won't apply my values to you while I expect the same courtesy.  So I won't call you stupid for riding the darkside though I personally won't tolerate the bad handling, f'rinstance. Yeah I'll take a chance.  If I accepted no risk I wouldn't be riding bikes.  Or I'd buy that ATGATT thing even in hundred degree weather.   As it is, I refuse to throw away a new $200 tire without taking some risks to save it. IOW for $200 I'll take a chance. And I killed two mulie bucks wearing no safety gear, was knocked off the bike at 70, was hurt and skinned yet I'll still ride in a t-shirt with no helmet if it's hot.  I promise not to make you ride my bike with a plugged tire with Ride On in it.  Thanks to those who actually provided some useful info in this thread.

Challenger - this may be the right tool to buff inside a tire - rather than a wire wheel.  Worked really well, and predictably without removing material too fast or unevenly and w/o leaving pieces of wire.  That's a 40 grit disk, spins at 20k.  Or I could be full of it.

[fstsix]

But..but you said don't even bring up the Darkside ?    be careful swinging that leg over the motorcycle seat, heal might catch and someone could break a ankle...but i would not call them stupid either.

[RP#62]

You guys do what you gotta do.  We all make decisions based on our own values and judgments.  I won't apply my values to you while I expect the same courtesy.  So I won't call you stupid for riding the darkside though I personally won't tolerate the bad handling, f'rinstance. Yeah I'll take a chance.  If I accepted no risk I wouldn't be riding bikes.  Or I'd buy that ATGATT thing even in hundred degree weather.   As it is, I refuse to throw away a new $200 tire without taking some risks to save it. IOW for $200 I'll take a chance. And I killed two mulie bucks wearing no safety gear, was knocked off the bike at 70, was hurt and skinned yet I'll still ride in a t-shirt with no helmet if it's hot.  I promise not to make you ride my bike with a plugged tire with Ride On in it.  Thanks to those who actually provided some useful info in this thread.

Challenger - this may be the right tool to buff inside a tire - rather than a wire wheel.  Worked really well, and predictably without removing material too fast or unevenly and w/o leaving pieces of wire.  That's a 40 grit disk, spins at 20k.  Or I could be full of it.

Hey Mark, did your frame ever fail from the alternator cut-out?  Seems to me I remember predictions of flaming death.
LOL
-RP

[MarkT]

But..but you said don't even bring up the Darkside ?    be careful swinging that leg over the motorcycle seat, heal might catch and someone could break a ankle...but i would not call them stupid either.

Musta told you that story?  yep the seat was too high thnx to the board under the kickstand over soft ground - fell over and the cursed hightop boots broke both the fibula & tibia.  Couldn't believe it.  Broke both leg bones just standing there & falling over.  And wearing proper safety gear which is what broke my leg.  Sounded like breaking a couple sticks of celery.  Told my brother - "Did you hear that?"  That cursed boot just broke my leg."

[MarkT]

Hey Mark, did your frame ever fail from the alternator cut-out?  Seems to me I remember predictions of flaming death.
LOL
-RP

Nope.  Still riding on that frame 50,000 miles later...

[Sneaky Snake]

Mark,
I just plug-patched my rear tire yesterday.  Avon Venom w/ about 75% tread left.  I'm also unwilling to throw away an otherwise good tire.  I've never had a properly installed tire patch on a car/truck fail and the plug- patches work better than a patch alone.  It was a nail that caused the flat.  I've remounted the tire and it's holding air so far.  Haven't put it back on the valk since I'm learning about lubricating the splines and other service as I have the bike down.  I first cleaned the area for the patch with a little acetone on a clean rag, had to do that twice to get the slimy feel off of the tire.  Then I roughed up the area for the patch with the little cheese grater thumb size tool that came with a kit of patches.  I rolled the patch down with the wheeled tool.  It stuck very well.  I didn't cut the stem off the plug part until I mounted the tire and let it sit overnight.  I'll repost if I have any problems with my fix.  Good luck with your repair.
Chris

Here's a pic of the type plug-patch I used:

[Ricky-D]

I've been using those string type plugs for a long time and have had mixed results. Some times they have leaked a little and I've had to re-do.

The biggest part to getting a good job using the string plugs are to go in the same hole that was made by whatever caused it.  You can feel around and find the angle of trajectory. It's important to do this!

The steel belts are a pisser to reaming out the hole but it is absolutely necessary to get that hole smoothed enough to allow pushing in the string plug.  I find that the steel belts will wear the reamer that's supplied with the plug kit down in just one application.

You have to use ample quantity of the cement that's supplied with the kit also. Get it all over the tool stem and the plug on all sides and put some on the tire too. It works like a lubricant.

Don't be afraid of pushing the plug in too far. Better too far that not enough. It will pop out if the plug is not pushed in a proper amount.  Identify a spot on the plug to which you want to insert the plug before you push the plug in and then push it to that point! 

If a plug leaks, that's no big deal and death is not going to rear it's ugly head. Simply pull the old threads out and do another plug exercise from the start. Maybe you need to add a few extra threads to the bundle.

The usual reason for plug failure is poor application and scrimping on the process. Thinking you can save some of the kit for the next time by using less on the job at hand is folly. Just buy another kit.

I have never heard of a tubeless tire going instantly flat from a simple puncture. They are not like old tube types that will blow in a second. It just wont happen.  Scare talk is just that. Scare talk!

***

[fudgie]

Its easier to plug a tire that has air in it then a flat one. 

[John U.]

I had a rear tire go flat pretty fast when whatever caused the puncture flew out. Just like you I felt a heaviness and rode on the tire fro a few hundred yards before I gigured out it was flat. Just like your siruation, it was a new tire,
I plugged it with a mushroom plug kit I got from Patchboy: http://patchboy.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=P&Product_Code=12-210&Category_Code=12-3-9

The plug worked but I worried about it so I also put some Ride-on in the tire. It worked and I ran the tire for a couple of seasons. I could have gotten more use out of it except that I had made a mistake. I failed to rebalance the tire before I put the Ride-on in the tire. Once it's in there, you can't rebalance, though that really wasn't a problem, because it never occured to me that the tire might have slipped on the rim. The Ride-on counteracted the out of balance condition until the tire had about 9,000 miles on it and I began to feel a vibration which worsened quickly.
Oh well, lesson learned. It was still better than getting almost no use out of the tire.
I found out something else. Ride-on didn't corrode the rim, but it made a hell of a mess.

[Rio Wil]

 Large hole, big as a pencil.

Mark.....with all due respect.......with a hole like that you are just pissing into the wind. Like I said, I am a fan of plugs, have ran several thousands of miles and no leakage.  I just did one for my friend on his GW and he decided to change it out before we headed to Alaska. The puncture was from a construction staple about two inches long with a 3/4 inch width.  The crown and one leg was removed from the hole and the string plug was inserted.  He put about 3K on the tire before changing it.  Upon removal, the other leg of the staple was found still in the hole along side the plug and it still sealed perfectly because it was a nice tight hole. If your mission here is an academic pursuit of installing and the integrity of plugs, you are getting lots of good input, but I still think the best use of that tire is for a "pencil holder".....    

[MarkT]

Large hole, big as a pencil.

Mark.....with all due respect.......with a hole like that you are just pissing into the wind. Like I said, I am a fan of plugs, have ran several thousands of miles and no leakage.  I just did one for my friend on his GW and he decided to change it out before we headed to Alaska. The puncture was from a construction staple about two inches long with a 3/4 inch width.  The crown and one leg was removed from the hole and the string plug was inserted.  He put about 3K on the tire before changing it.  Upon removal, the other leg of the staple was found still in the hole along side the plug and it still sealed perfectly because it was a nice tight hole. If your mission here is an academic pursuit of installing and the integrity of plugs, you are getting lots of good input, but I still think the best use of that tire is for a "pencil holder".....    

With all due respect... Then I'll have a good piss.  Your comments from a distance without seeing what I'm working with hardly carry any weight against my working directly with the tire, hands on.  I didn't measure the hole or stick a pencil in it.  It does appear to be slightly under 1/4", well within the max size recommended for tire plugs.  I did however plug it with a string plug, this time properly applied - the first one was also the first time I've ever installed a plug and obviously I had to learn how to do it - as well as limit the air pressure and riding speed until it set.  However I'm a quick study with plenty of shop experience and the 2nd plug went in on the side of the road with plenty of rubber cement, and with half the normal air pressure until the plug and cement cured. That plug was difficult to remove the next day - there's no way it would have fallen out by itself for quite some time.  But I wanted to install a proper plug/patch.  And when I installed the large size plug/patch, it took a good deal of tugging to get it through the hole - with the hole any smaller and I doubt it could have been installed without ripping the plug in two.  The slow leak that's still there, I am certain it's from lamination damage.  Exactly the kind of leak Inovex says Ride-On will seek out and plug.

But given your recommendation of the "pencil holder" - I'll bet you a case of Sam Adams I get this tire to last a normal lifetime.  The last Cobra 200 made it 12428 miles before it was completely worn and replaced.  I won't bet on the extra 30% yet.

[Rio Wil]

 ???........but isn't that what we all do, offer opinions based on the input provided and most times we are a mile away, a city away, a country away, or half a world away.....(wow, wonder how long I could keep that string going... ).  I have been curious about the rubber cement provided with some of the plug kits, (I don't usually use it) it appears to be exactly that and best I can tell does not offer any chemical bond with the tire rubber or plug material thus  any "cure" is just the evaporation of the carrier from the cement leaving a pliable material that seemingly could be displaced by centrifugal force. For holes that are on the larger size, I try to work the string plug back and forth a bit in an attempt to distribute the rubbery material on the string into the tiny fractures left by the puncturing object (might be what you are referring to as de-lamination), the idea is to fill those voids and prevent the slow leak syndrome. The ideal hole for a string plug is one that is straight in and that allows the string plug to form a mushroom head on the inside of the tire from centrifugal  force....recon that is where the concept of the mushroom plug came from..

As for the case of Sam Adams, I could use a afternoon ride, might be worth a good piss.....  

[John U.]

The mushroom plugs available from Patchboy (no affiliation) are used with a gun.
The mushroom pug is folded up, like a blown out umbrella to insert in the gun nozzle.
The plug has to travel down the short nozzle which is inserted in the reamed out hole.

The rubber cement functions as a lubricant (no K-Y jokes please) and I suppose helps the plug settle into place.
The plug itself is black with a red or rust colored layer on the exterior. It is supposed to vucanize itself and become one with the tire. For sure the mushroom will not blow out or be thrown out of the hole if the proper sized plug is used.

They have two sizes. The large size looks is 7/16  in diameter, though I'm sure the hole it fills would have to be smaller. They claim the rubber cement is vulcanizing cement. The larger size mushromm plug requires a larger gun nozzle, which cost a extra 4.00.
As I said, no affiliation, just a satisfied customer. The mushroom plugs have worked well for me three times.