Driveshaft question.

[alph]

Alright, I’m reading the procedure for removing and reinstalling the driveshaft, and in one paragraph it says that you must replace the stopper ring on the drive shaft every time the drive shaft is removed.  But if you read further down in the book it says; “Do not install a new stopper ring into the groove end of the driveshaft splines.  It is used during manufacturing and does not need to be replaced”??? 

So, which is it??  do you need to replace the stopper spring, or not??

Also, I’ve read of some people saying that the final drive gear oil is leaked into the drive shaft pinion cup lubing the splines of the drive shaft.  I have taken off my pinion cup, and can not see how this is at all possible.  Does anyone know what they might be talking about??  I read in the book that the drive gears are a sealed unit, so this shouldn’t be possible.

Al.

[RP#62]

I've had mine apart several times over the past 12 years and I'm still using the original ring.  There's no need to replace it, its only function is to hold it together long enough to assemble the final drive to the swing arm.  The coupling is vented to the gearbox.  If you make sure the holes are clear, when you tip the coupling down, final drive oil will run out.  I don't think its ever been settled on whether the holes are just to vent the coupling cavity to the final drive cavity or whether they are intended to be a path for oil entry into the coupling.  Only Honda knows and they ain't telling.
-RP

[alph]

thanks RP, i just got done reading the whole argument about "holes", to clean them or not......

i was talking to a good friend, (he was a mechanic for Ford for 15 years, and has been working on cycles since he could walk) and he tells me that on the goldwings it's a sealed unit, if you have oil on your pinion you've got trouble......  "?"  don't ask me, i don't know.....

thanks for the info on the stopp ring..

[Chrisj CMA]

I've had mine apart several times over the past 12 years and I'm still using the original ring.  There's no need to replace it, its only function is to hold it together long enough to assemble the final drive to the swing arm.  The coupling is vented to the gearbox.  If you make sure the holes are clear, when you tip the coupling down, final drive oil will run out.  I don't think its ever been settled on whether the holes are just to vent the coupling cavity to the final drive cavity or whether they are intended to be a path for oil entry into the coupling.  Only Honda knows and they ain't telling.
-RP

I have a brand new opinion on this (holes for lubrication thing) after removing a pinion cup from a toasted final drive yesterday.

There is only one way to clean those holes out.  they are pretty deep.  It CANNOT be done with access to only the inside of the cup without pushing all the gunk in the holes right into the pumpkin.

The only right way to clean the holes is to remove the pinion cup and push a rod through and clean the rod with a rag on the other side. 

Therefore I stand by what I said before.  I dont doubt at least one of the holes was meant to add lube to the cup (note the hole on the side looks like a "scoop")  BUT, why should a good greased up cup go dry?....unless you use a non water proof grease and have a bad boot and a bad oil seal.  Check and lube it everytime the wheel comes off and I dont think it matters if it gets additional lube.  My thinking is the designer imagined no one would EVER mess with it so they tried to make it bullet proof for the life of the bike.

[Sodbuster]

Just so we're all on the same page .... the ring we're talking about is lower right ??

[alph]

Just so we're all on the same page .... the ring we're talking about is lower right ??

Yes.  The question is, does it NEED to be replaced, or is it something that is only used during manufacturing as the "clymer" book says.

[RLD]

if you have oil on your pinion you've got trouble...... 

B.S. ! My last I/S had the holes plugged by a mechanic and it never worked right again. I had to replace the unit. Every time I pulled the shaft, it was rusty and dry no matter what I did. It also blew the seal out of the pocket and it woul be spinning on the shaft. EVERYTIME, even after only 6-8000 miles!! Since replacing it, and now on my second I/S, it is always oily and happy when I pull it apart. I do not grease it when re-assembling as I'm afraid of plugging those holes. Do as you wish, but you do not want those holes plugged.

does it NEED to be replaced

I have never replaced it in 130,000 miles.

My opinions only, but they're founded in actual usage, not what a friend told me, or what the manual says. When the holes were plugged, the shaft was dry and rusty; when the holes are open, shaft's oily. Nuff said. No one will ever be able to convince me otherwise. 

[Chrisj CMA]

if you have oil on your pinion you've got trouble......  

B.S. ! My last I/S had the holes plugged by a mechanic and it never worked right again. I had to replace the unit. Every time I pulled the shaft, it was rusty and dry no matter what I did. It also blew the seal out of the pocket and it woul be spinning on the shaft. EVERYTIME, even after only 6-8000 miles!! Since replacing it, and now on my second I/S, it is always oily and happy when I pull it apart. I do not grease it when re-assembling as I'm afraid of plugging those holes. Do as you wish, but you do not want those holes plugged.

does it NEED to be replaced

I have never replaced it in 130,000 miles.

My opinions only, but they're founded in actual usage, not what a friend told me, or what the manual says. When the holes were plugged, the shaft was dry and rusty; when the holes are open, shaft's oily. Nuff said. No one will ever be able to convince me otherwise.  

I heavily grease mine and have done on the others I have had without regard to those holes......I think sometimes when removing the driveshaft it seems wet like lube has gotten in there and sometimes its just greasy. But always the pinion cup splines have been as new (no wear at all) 

The cup I removed yesterday from a pumpkin that was neglegted for over 14K the drive splines were fried to the bone.  the holes in the pinion cup were definetly plugged through and through with grease and no wet oil (lube) in the cup, but the splines were greasy and in perfect shape

[Sodbuster]

The cup I removed yesterday from a pumpkin that was neglected for over 14K the drive splines were fried to the bone.  the holes in the pinion cup were definitely plugged through and through with grease and no wet oil (lube) in the cup, but the splines were greasy and in perfect shape

Hey ChrisJ -
I don't know if I'm suffering from old fart-itis but that was kinda confusing.

[alph]

Well, tonight I took off my pinion cup and found the “holes” that everyone has been talking about.  My opinion is that the pinion cup has those holes for the sole purpose of lubing the splines.  If you rotate the hub, in the direction that it would turn while driving down the road, you will find that the “scoop” on the side of the pinion cup will turn in such a way that it will pick up what ever oil there may be, and pump it “up” to the spline.  (it turns in a clock wise rotation.)  I would believe that the second hole is a “drain” hole. 

Now, I’m not going to argue.  You may do what ever it is you want to do. But, it’s my money, and from now on, I will be removing my pinion cup, cleaning out the holes, and reinstalling it.  I whole heartily believe that the holes are for lubrication.   My only regret is that I wish I would have checked them 8 thousand miles ago when I had gotten my last wheel!

In both shop manuals, you are told to put a small amount of “moly paste” on the splines.  This amount is approximately the weight of a paper clip, so it isn’t much!!  Just enough to dirty the splines.  I believe that putting too much moly will plug the holes, but then again, why isn’t the drive wheel spline lubed in this same manner??  Who knows!!!

[Bone]

Have had the shaft out of my 98 a few times. I still have the ring in place.


From the Honda's manual;

Install the drive shaft into the pinion joint until the stopper ring

seats in the pinion spline groove.

NOTE

Make sure that the stopper ring is seated properly by

pulling on the drive shaft lightly.

Be careful not to damage the drive shaft oil sea[.

[RonW]

would somebody mind clarifying. Is it moly-grease or moly-paste in the pinion cup?

[Sodbuster]

As long as we're on the subject .... do you need special tools to R&R that pinion cup ??

[Valkpilot]

would somebody mind clarifying. Is it moly-grease or moly-paste in the pinion cup?

It's moly GREASE (3% moly) on the drive shaft components, including the pinion cup.  And not much either.  2 grams is about the weight of 2 paper clips.  A good quality waterproof bearing grease such as Bel-Ray Marine will substitute just fine.

Where the pumpkin meets the wheel, it's moly PASTE (60% moly) in lavish quantities on the drive gear and driven hub splines, o-rings, and pins on the driven hub that fit into the wheel dampers.

[RonW]

thankx, Valkpilot.

RIDE SAFE

[Daniel Meyer]

As long as we're on the subject .... do you need special tools to R&R that pinion cup ??

Just an impact wrench to spin off the nut that holds it on (one nut in the center)...and it can be done without that even, it's just harder to hold the rear end from turning.

[Sodbuster]

As long as we're on the subject .... do you need special tools to R&R that pinion cup ??

Just an impact wrench to spin off the nut that holds it on (one nut in the center)...and it can be done without that even, it's just harder to hold the rear end from turning.

OK .... that sounds simple enough, but, how 'bout to tighten ??  The manual shows some special tools to hold that bugger to tighten but I'm guessing someone has come up with something else ??

BTW ..... Thanks for the reply !!

[Valkpilot]

OK .... that sounds simple enough, but, how 'bout to tighten ??  The manual shows some special tools to hold that bugger to tighten but I'm guessing someone has come up with something else ??

BTW ..... Thanks for the reply !!

With apologies to Mr Miagi:

Wrench on
Wrench off

(Air impact that is.)

[Sodbuster]

OK .... that sounds simple enough, but, how 'bout to tighten ??  The manual shows some special tools to hold that bugger to tighten but I'm guessing someone has come up with something else ??

BTW ..... Thanks for the reply !!

With apologies to Mr Miagi:


Wrench on
Wrench off

(Air impact that is.)

Fair enough .... never done it B4

Sorry for the hijack 

[sandy]

Quote from: RONW on Today at 05:23:50 AM
would somebody mind clarifying. Is it moly-grease or moly-paste in the pinion cup?
Where the pumpkin meets the wheel, it's moly PASTE (60% moly) in lavish quantities on the drive gear and driven hub splines, o-rings, and pins on the driven hub that fit into the wheel dampers.


Honda issued a service bulletin. No grease is to be used on the 5 pins in the wheel dampeners. They should be inserted dry. Grease atracts dirt and acts like a grinding compound thus causing a replacement of both the wheel splines and dampeners.

[Valkpilot]

Honda issued a service bulletin. No grease is to be used on the 5 pins in the wheel dampeners. They should be inserted dry. Grease atracts dirt and acts like a grinding compound thus causing a replacement of both the wheel splines and dampeners.

Do you have a copy of that?  Both my manuals still call for moly on the driven hub pins.

[Ricky-D]

That special tool for holding the pinion cup while torquing down the nut is important as the means to keep the FORCES of the impact wrench OFF the teeth of the two gears. The pinion and ring gear.

Sure, the teeth on the gears are large but they are never subjected to the banging that an impact wrench will give them. The gears mesh and slide but never bang together.

A little damage to the gears will surely end up shortening the life of the gearbox.

***

[Valkahuna]

JMHO - But this appears to be the most over-maintained, most mis-understood area on the whole Valkyrie. ???

A little bit of common sense goes a long way. Why would Honda design something that self destructs within a "reasonable" mileage range, when the items were warranted for longer than that when new? Close personal friends of mine were long time Honda dealers in Massachusetts with nothing to gain by bamboozling me, and their suggestion is the same as my thoughts. That works for me, and the findings of many Valk riders echo their findings.

The whole reason for a drive shaft in the first place is to prevent having to do most of the maintenance that we are all so hell-bent to perform. It sure is not because it is the most efficient way to transmit power. Chains do that but with more noise, and higher maintenance, but less power loss!

Keep the holes clean, keep paste out of them, and lube will find its way where it needs to be.

If you keep taking that area apart, lubeing it to excess with a good water proof grease (NOT PASTE) the splines and cup will stay happy as well, but with more work than needs to be done. In this case, the gease performs the same function that the holes and the lube oil were designed to do. Now, if you do that labor because you enjoy doing it, then keep going, and you won't hurt anything as long as you don't strip some bolts or do something else wrong.

The Honda engineers are pretty smart guys, yet we keep insisting on treating their equipment as though they were John Deere tractors built in the 1930's. 

Just sayin', it's my opinion, thats all. 

[Sodbuster]

.... Close personal friends of mine were long time Honda dealers in Massachusetts with nothing to gain by bamboozling me, and their suggestion is the same as my thoughts. That works for me, and the findings of many Valk riders echo their findings.

Can you elaborate a little more on what "their suggestion" is ??

Thanks,
Sod

[RLD]

Keep the holes clean, keep paste out of them, and lube will find its way where it needs to be.

You are correct, but you still need to pull the pumpkin to lube the u-joint splines. This was my first failure on my first Valk at only 39000 miles. They were dry and rusty. Dealer wasn't even aware of the problem. Honda warrantied it, but now I make certain it is lubed about every 12000 miles or so.

[alph]

I rigged up my differential on my vise, and used a drill to spin the rear end while watching the pinion cup.  Now, I don’t know if I got enough RPM’s out of my drill, but I never ever got any oil to well up from those pinion cup holes.  I was hoping to be able to video tape the process, because I believe the holes will supply oil to the pinion joint, but wasn’t able to prove it.  (and yes, i was spinning the correct way)

Well, one good thing, I cleaned out the old dirty gear oil from my rear end, and I believe I found the reason for the mysterious noise that I was getting from my rear tire when it was first installed. 

[hubcapsc]

As long as we're on the subject .... do you need special tools to R&R that pinion cup ??

Just an impact wrench to spin off the nut that holds it on (one nut in the center)...and it can be done without that even, it's just harder to hold the rear end from turning.

I couldn't get this one off...


I was driving my impact wrench with this...


I was getting ready for a ride, so I used my spare, I hope if I clean out all that
mars dust and soak the nut in liquid wrench for a while, the impact wrench will get it off...

The only other time I had to get a pinion cup off was before I had the compressor, I took
the final drive over to my buddy Dan's house, he got it off with his impact wrench no trouble at all...

-Mike

[wild6]

To hold the cup, I put a large pipe wrench on it and held it on tightly with a c-clamp.  I was then able to break the nut loose with a socket wrench (got no impact tools)

I put on the new one the same way.  Just was careful not to squeeze the cup too hard.

[RonW]

drill the freakin nut off the threaded shank, already. Even a few strategically placed relief holes on the sides of the nut might unfreeze it. Nothing scientific. Just my own opinion.

[Valkahuna]

.... Close personal friends of mine were long time Honda dealers in Massachusetts with nothing to gain by bamboozling me, and their suggestion is the same as my thoughts. That works for me, and the findings of many Valk riders echo their findings.

Can you elaborate a little more on what "their suggestion" is ??

Thanks,
Sod

Sorry Sod,

I hadn't noticed this question. Very simply, to not go way overboard on the maintenance. It was engineered to be simple! JMHO.

[Valkahuna]

Keep the holes clean, keep paste out of them, and lube will find its way where it needs to be.

You are correct, but you still need to pull the pumpkin to lube the u-joint splines. This was my first failure on my first Valk at only 39000 miles. They were dry and rusty. Dealer wasn't even aware of the problem. Honda warrantied it, but now I make certain it is lubed about every 12000 miles or so.

I agree! That's an easy job anyways once the tire is off. I also believe that the splines are important to lube every time the tire comes off. Again, JMHO