Question about Ethanol gas

[Old Geezer Richard]

I just got back from the GOTF'S in Houston and I noticed that all the gas stations there all sell nothing but gas with ethanol 10% .... I gassed up and my Fat Lady seems to not run good , like water in the gas .... now in San Antonio we do not have ethanol at all  , only at a local grocery chain store where they have a separate gas pump ..... the bike purred fine up to Houston , is this common with ethanol gas ... I'm hoping that filling fill local gas  this will clear this up .... Thanks Old Geezer 

[R J]

I've run 10% ethanol for many mnay moons in MGM.

It has been too long ago for me to determine if I have lost anything due to Ethanol.

All my vehicles and even my lawn & garden equipment use it.

Some people say they lose MPG, others have said they lost HP.

Those are all BUTT Dyno's and I doubt very much if you see any difference between dyno runs using straight and 10%.

Just my humble opinion.   Well since MGM has over 240,000+ miles, I guess I'm kind of out of the know of you short timers.

[Tundra]

I've had this battle. Ethanol absolutely 100% is a problem in my bike. Maybe some don't notice it because of differant mods, jets etc... I fill up with ethanol crap and 5-8 miles down the road I will experience hesitation, poor performance, backfiring. It WILL decrease your milage and performance, I have tested it with and without. Carberated vehicles, boats, expensive professional lawn maintenance equipment will all feel the effects. It will burn hotter, causing deterioration of o-rings and seals. It is not as refined and can/will cause clogged jets for some of us. Thats where the fuel additives and cleaners folks rave about here can come in handy. Ethanol also attracts moisture, which is also a problem for a SIX carb. motorcycle. Fuel injected vehicles and bikes you will not notice a performance change, just a drop in milage. It also eats fuel pumps. Government backed and mandated! Can't go wrong I am told by my local non-ethanol gas station owner that ther is a bill being pushed through in Florida to only allow non-ethanol fuel to be sold to marina's. Do to the fact of the tremendous damage to the boating community here. NOTE...Florida is trying to become a MAJOR PRODUCER of ethanol via suger cane, sooo there along for the "yeah it's good stuff" bull55hit.

[PharmBoy]

Ethanol is supposed to be put in whiskey, not your gas tank! 

[Black Dog]

Yep, Ethanol sux big time...  When I can find 'good 'ol gas' the Valk purrs like a Kitten.  But, living in SE Wisconsin, we can't find anything but the 10% Ethanol blend, so we make do.  When I use 100% gas, when traveling away from home, I can start the Valk with no choke, and she's smooth as silk, and mileage is up 3 or 4 mpg.  Same thing in my Suburban.  Good gas means at least 3 mpg better mileage through a tank full (14 mpg vs 17 mpg).

Most Ethanol is made from corn in this country, and studys have shown that using corn is the least bang for your buck, when ya get the final product.  At least Florida should get a better yield using sugar cane (like they do in South America), but they will still gig ya an extra 8 - 10 cents a gallon, and tell ya yer saving the planet...  Another thing I'd like someone to explain to me 

Black Dog 

[John U.]

+One on Ethanol Sucks. The politicians love it because the farmers love it. I'm not anti farm or anti saving the planet, but by the time you plant, fertilize, harvest, transport and process the corn to make ethanol it's actually worse for the planet and everyone else except _________ (fill in the blank)

[Tundra]

Oh yeah, one more thing before I beat this dead horse...While trouble shooting some of my bad ethanol related symptoms, I drained my bowls into a glass pickle jar, to look for the presence of water...Yup, just as I expected!

[Trynt]

In Minnesota we've had to run a 10% ethanol blend for years.   I have been told by mechanics, if a vehicle has any water or other "gunk" in the  bottom of the tank or carbs ethanol will cause this to be suspended in the fuel and burnt.  It is my understanding that it is the burning of this water/gunk that can cause the rough running and poor performance.  When the change over to ethanol occurred here years ago, some people with older vehicles found it necessary to change fuel filters, "iffy" o-rings and extreme cases, gas tanks to deal with the fuel system "cleaning" associated with ethanol.  I suspect that once the fuel system on your bike is purged of impurities  it's performance should improve. My bike runs fine. Smooth as silk.  I have noticed when leaving the state and non ethanol gas is available, my mileage improves a bit (+1 to 2).  As far a power, I really don't know, my butt dyno isn't that accurate.

I should add this "cleaning" can also effect the gas stations storage tanks, which can extend problems for the end user.

[Steve K (IA)]

In Minnesota we've had to run a 10% ethanol blend for years.   I have been told by mechanics, if a vehicle has any water or other "gunk" in the  bottom of the tank or carbs ethanol will cause this to be suspended in the fuel and burnt.  It is my understanding that it is the burning of this water/gunk that can cause the rough running and poor performance.  When the change over to ethanol occurred here years ago, some people with older vehicles found it necessary to change fuel filters, "iffy" o-rings and extreme cases, gas tanks to deal with the fuel system "cleaning" associated with ethanol.  I suspect that once the fuel system on your bike is purged of impurities  it's performance should improve. My bike runs fine. Smooth as silk.  I have noticed when leaving the state and non ethanol gas is available, my mileage improves a bit (+1 to 2).  As far a power, I really don't know, my butt dyno isn't that accurate.

I should add this "cleaning" can also effect the gas stations storage tanks, which can extend problems for the end user.

Trynt,
You got it right.  I have been using ethanol in both my Valks...the '00 I/S since the day I bought it new and the same goes for the '97 Std that I picked up in '04.  Both run as smooth as silk and accelerate strong.  Only problem with gas that I have ever had is when I filled up in southern Ill. (Marion?) at a Shell station on the way to one of the InZanes in Paducha.  BlackDog got some of the same gas.  Both bikes ran like crap until we could get most of it burnt off and got something different in them. 

[Ricky-D]

Well, ethanol has less btu's than gasoline.
When you introduce ethanol into gasoline you get fuel with less btu's.
It's the btu's that determine your mpg's.
So, ipso-facto, ethanol enriched (adulterated) gasoline will yield less mpg's.

[Old Geezer Richard]

I thank you all for your input , I'm not crazy about that ethanol junk in my valk tank , because like I had said  before my old Fat Lady was running smoooth  cruising at 75 - 80 on I-10  Houston until I had to fill her up with that junk in Houston and then my ol girl ran like I had water in the gas and just did not run smooth  at all , but it ran ..... also I noticed I could use the choke and it would keep on running for about 5 minutes before it would start to idle down and then I flipped the choke off , where as before the choke was on for maybe 30 maybe 45 seconds while warming up and then  it would idle down in that short of time .... I don't know , but I'll be flushing out that old rot gut gas and putting in some  good home brew in her ..... I hope that junk has'nt done anything to the furl system ..... thanks everybody ........  Old Geezer Richard

[Tundra]

Richard, please post your results. I'm curious.TIA

[FLAVALK]

I've had this battle. Ethanol absolutely 100% is a problem in my bike. Maybe some don't notice it because of differant mods, jets etc... I fill up with ethanol crap and 5-8 miles down the road I will experience hesitation, poor performance, backfiring. It WILL decrease your milage and performance, I have tested it with and without. Carberated vehicles, boats, expensive professional lawn maintenance equipment will all feel the effects. It will burn hotter, causing deterioration of o-rings and seals. It is not as refined and can/will cause clogged jets for some of us. Thats where the fuel additives and cleaners folks rave about here can come in handy. Ethanol also attracts moisture, which is also a problem for a SIX carb. motorcycle. Fuel injected vehicles and bikes you will not notice a performance change, just a drop in milage. It also eats fuel pumps. Government backed and mandated! Can't go wrong I am told by my local non-ethanol gas station owner that ther is a bill being pushed through in Florida to only allow non-ethanol fuel to be sold to marina's. Do to the fact of the tremendous damage to the boating community here. NOTE...Florida is trying to become a MAJOR PRODUCER of ethanol via suger cane, sooo there along for the "yeah it's good stuff" bull55hit.

You can thank our Rino governor Charlie Christ for that! He is fully behind the ethanol push in Florida. I'f I'm not mistaken, the new law states that all gasoline sold in Florida must contain Ethanol by 2011. 

[98valk]

To add to the other comments.
ethanol does not make an engine run hotter. Any alcohol fuel makes an engine run cooler. Alcohol makes the jetting leaner due to its lower BTU content. Leaness will make an engine run hotter. This is the reason why so many are now installing 38 pilot jets. (steady state cruising down the highway, legal speeds, is only using the pilot jet circuit). The 10% limit of ethanol limits how much water into the gas it attracts. Does it still happen, do some gas stations have higher than 10%, YES on both counts. This is where acetone comes into play, it keeps the gas, water and alcohol in suspension so it can all be burned. Acetone buy itself does not increase MPG, (edit-it actually has a lower BTU content than the alcohols) Had that backwards, acetone has slightly more BTU content than ethanol actually, they are almost the same, and both have a little more than half of what gasoline has. Ethanol is not as caustic to rubber parts as methanol is. Ethanol does not attract water like methanol does. Again both issues are why the limit of 10%, unless of course everything in and for the engine was designed and built for higher % of alcohol.
 The above is common knowledge to alcohol racers.
The govt has wanted to use ethanol for yrs but could not until almost all vehicles were fuel injected, which compensates via the O2 sensor for different % of ethanol.
If one searches the web, u would find that there are EPA reports and others that prove that ethanol and catalytic convertors contribute to global warming and increased levels of ozone, plus as was mentioned the negative use of fuel to produce ethanol.
just wait until the carbon credit laws are passed.
A must read "The Greening"  at
http://www.lawfulpath.com/ref/greening.shtml

[Brad]

On a related subject, we have been having problems with the 10% gas here in Nevada for some time now.  The local Honda equipment dealers test the gas in your tank when you bring in a mower for fuel related problems and if the gas tests for over 10% ethanol then your warranty is void and you pay for the carb repair.  The local BMW dealers do the same thing and they have voided lots of warrantys on new BMW cars over this same thing.  I don't know how the ethanol level gets above the 10% mark but some of the tests are showing as high as 15-20%.  The fact that the government subsidizes ethanol (read you pay 51 cents a gallon for it's production) may have something to do with it.

[Tundra]

CA ExhaustCoatings...Good information, with all that being said, what's the cure? Is there one? other than selling my Valk? I don't understand why others are not effected in the same way as me. My bike runs like $%^# when I am forced to use ethanol. When I get home from a ride, I always fill with non-ethanol and my problems are gone, like magic! Eventually even I will not be able to purchase this fuel.

[98valk]

CA ExhaustCoatings...Good information, with all that being said, what's the cure? Is there one? other than selling my Valk? I don't understand why others are not effected in the same way as me. My bike runs like $%^# when I am forced to use ethanol. When I get home from a ride, I always fill with non-ethanol and my problems are gone, like magic! Eventually even I will not be able to purchase this fuel.

install 38 pilot jets. Check your petcock vacuum diaphragm and vacuum hoses and caps from the intake manifolds. Any slight leaks that cause a slight leaness will be magnified by the leaness caused by the ethanol. I would really check the petcock diaphragm esp. near the center connections with an eye piece. Constant vibration wears away the rubber coating. I now know that my bike started to act weird with only 19k on her. It was showing signs of leaness, I rejetted, took the carbs apart looking for dirt, put major blame on the ethanol and the dyna ignition.
Well it turned out to be the diaphragm. I will be posting part #s soon as the oem is way too much $$$. And I'm looking into a pulsation snubber which will protect the diaphragm from excessive wear. Hint there a few other honda's that use the same diaphragm.

[MP]

If the diaphram has any age on it, I would just go ahead and replace it.  It is called a cover set.  $25 or so.

[Tundra]

CA Exhaust Coat...Thanks

[98valk]

 "E10’s ability to absorb water has yet another drawback; it can absorb water directly from the atmosphere through the vent while simply sitting in the tank.  In just 100 days at 70% humidity, E10 can absorb enough water to phase-separate.  The shelf life of E10 is only 60-90 days if left without treatment."

by adding iso-propanol, ~ 1-2% or acetone (max. 1-2%) both will help with
miscibility of the fuel.

http://www.oregon.gov/OSMB/news/E10.shtml

http://www.answers.com/topic/alcohol-fuel

http://e85forum.com/index.php

http://www.oilgae.com/energy/sou/ae/re/be/alc/eth/eth.html

[fudgie]

When I go west of the Mississippi is when I get gas with 10% Eth in it. It has been 10 cents cheaper so i use it. Never a problem in the 4 yrs I use it. Milage might go down by a few miles but thats all. No performance issues. We don't have it around me here in Ind. Maybe you had water in yours.