God Bashing!

[KW]

I’ve stayed away from posting anything in a so called ‘religious’ thread. In fact; I don’t think I ever have, but it hasn’t been easy for me not to speak up when I read all the hateful, vile things Christians are called here at this board . . . and I just can’t stay silent any longer.

There are members here who ONLY post when THEY judge something to be ‘religious’ or “God” related. Then they immediately jump in, sharing their ‘superior intellect’ and ‘advance insight’ with the (very) few Believers who DARE to occasionally post something THEY determine is objectionable. There’s one person in particular who only posts so he can inform everyone that if you’re a Believer, you’re basically a “retard” (his words during one of rants in the past.) The arrogance and intellectual dishonestly of this posturing is astonishing. It’s as bad as “sending thoughts your way” when someone is having surgery or some other tragedy. What does that MEAN? Do you think it provides any comfort to the person in need?

The point is; the Administrators of this board would NEVER allow anyone to BASH any other group, by any definition or classification, as they allow Christians to be bashed here.  Believers on this board are called, with impunity and without fear of retribution, “stupid”, “bigoted”, “narrow-minded”, “judgmental” and even “racist.”  How do I know they’re not being checked? The same 3 or 4 people continually post the same attacks over and over and over. . .    

I don’t drink and the only girl I ever want to gawk at is the one I married as a teenager 32 years ago. I made that decision based primarily on my Faith, a Faith that DEMANDS that I DON’T judge those who do want to do those things. In fact; I could care less what you do, but the same courtesy isn’t extended to me or anyone else of Faith.  We’re regulated to the closet and ANY expressions of Faith or Belief in public is immediately attacked, yet non-believers are allowed to express the belief of secularism in any public forum, including here. Want proof? Do a search and see how some of the most benign, innocent posting referencing “God” is attacked here at the VRCC.  I get it though . . . It’s just the world in which we live now. I even understand why they shout so loudly, though I suspect they don’t.  

At the end of the day, I know the posting of hatefulness on this site - or any site for that matter - really doesn’t matter. It truly represent cowardliness in the extreme. A nameless, faceless person sitting in front of a computer screen somewhere spits this stuff out, uncontested, and without fear of direct contradiction or rebuttal.

The sad part is; I was REALLY looking forward to and planning on this summer InZane. And yes, it would have been our first. There’s some southern boys here who’d I would love to meet and sit down with and ‘kick the game.’ Now, after thinking it through, I’m not sure I’d even be welcomed.

[Micky]

Very well said. Thanks for speaking up.

[Oss]

KW,  IMHO You will be kickin your behind if you miss Inzane

In all the events I have been to, there had never been a person who just flat out was insulting to me.

You have no idea how good it feels when I ride up and hear not one but several folks say

"OH $hit its Oss" followed immediately by "can I get you a drink?"

or just a hearty shake of ones hand

Of course the southern folks usually say something like bless his heart also.

I sincerely hope that you post a pic of yourself right before Inzane so that you may experience the same joy as I do.

 

[ptgb]

...The sad part is; I was REALLY looking forward to and planning on this summer InZane. And yes, it would have been our first. There’s some southern boys here who’d I would love to meet and sit down with and ‘kick the game.’ Now, after thinking it through, I’m not sure I’d even be welcomed.

Don't think I have ever posted in any of the religious threads here as I really don't have a strong opinion or belief in either direction. I believe one's feelings of faith, religion, or lack thereof are a personal matter that should remain just that.

With that being said, I think the above quote from your post is kinda dramatic? I mean, I am by no means the grizzled veteran of Inzane, but I have been to the last three (all since I have owned a Valk and partook in this board).

I can assure you that I have never personally witnessed any great debates about one's beliefs or lack thereof. Never seen any "mini-crusades" or attempts at mass conversions. I have also never seen anyone show up to espouse their atheism, agnosticism, or other ideology contrary to Christianity.

Pretty much a non-issue... until this post. Plenty of other stuff to talk about... mostly Valks, Valks, and more Valks.

I really hope that you aren't serious that a stupid religious debate on some message board will stop you from coming to a great event that has absolutely nothing to do with religion.

[John Schmidt]

Jerry, I understand where you're coming from, hopefully you will not change your mind re. attending InZane. I, for one, will be there to welcome you. On a personal basis, I've found the VRCC family to be one of great friendship, tolerance, and when needed....support. Yes, there are those that go cross-grain, but thankfully are in the minority. And even that element is often a good source of advice and encouragement re. other issues, especially when it comes to bike problems. So even if I don't agree with them re. things Spiritual, I don't write them off as an individual. I try to not be judgemental, I don't always succeed. And, I've been known to give bad impressions of myself as well. Sometimes it's accidental or misunderstood, the cause is irelevant. The impression is not.

I encourage you to reconsider and follow through on your plans to join us all in Bellaire. I guarantee, you and Deb will enjoy yourselves.

John

[Willow]

Just a few rambling observations:

I'm the most active of the administrators, so if there's an accusation for what is allowed I guess it's pointed at me.

Most of the people who frequent this board are probably aware of or at least have a sneaking suspicion of my political, religious and motorcyclular views.  I try to be very lenient with posts contrary to my own opinion and I am strongly opinionated.  I do have my limits.

I guess I have seen some of the arrogance and intellectual dishonesty.  I see it on all sides of all points.  I haven't seen a lot of direct attack on religious beliefs.  Demeaning someone's religious beliefs is forbidden by the rules of the road.  I've seen a lot of posts that personally offended me.  I've left most of them on the board.

Now the important point.  There's a link in the lower right of each post titled, "Report to Moderator".  That link doesn't get much use.  In fact, I'll tell you for a certainty there is more volume of people publicly complaining that posts aren't deleted than there are people reporting posts asking for them to be removed.  There's an implication there.

My advice would be not to allow a vocal minority to influence your impression of the personality of the group as a whole.  Vocal minorities are usually vocal because they are minorities.

Come to InZane.  You'll be welcome there.  I am.

If you see stuff on the board that you don't think should be there report it to us.  I won't promise you we'll always agree with you, but if we don't hear your opinion we won't know your opinion.

Incidentally, I can probably identify the three or four you referenced.  Only one has attended InZane in the recent past and at least one has no regular contact with any VRCC member outside of this board.

Someone once instructed you and me that we should be salt and light in a world needing both.

Relax and enjoy the company of VRCC members with whom you have much in common.  Don't expect to have everything in common with all VRCC members.  I do and I don't.        
   

[Chattanooga Mark]

KW,

     I'm a born again. full gospel, Holy Spirit filled christian. It's who I am and why I was born. I'll discuss the bible, church, religion or politics with just about anyone. But I won't try and force my biblical beliefs on anyone. If anyone wants to know why I believe what I do, no problem, I'll tell them. And yes, silence is consent so I'll often give the why I do the things I do as well. I know what and who I once was and who and whose I am now.
     There are a few on this forum who seem to get their kicks by kicking at and provoking christians. I feel they are typically the easiest ones to submit to Christ if given a real opportunity. They think hate is the opposite of love when in reality it's indiferance. Those who are so quick to poke at christians are so often the ones crying out for One to believe in. They are often times tired of being their own god.
     Then again, some people have given themselves over to the prince of this world and are seemingly beyond repentance. Even unsaved people know there's right and wrong and good and bad. Not many unsaved people will poke fun at the religions that have no power. Many who don't know what to believe are often offended by those who are sure of their faith and know why.
     None of this will keep me away from Izane though. I've never been to one and I'm really looking forward to it. I'm also looking forward to some good fellowship with my brothers and sisters in Christ. It's always encouraging to hear what God is doing at their local church. As well as what others have done to their Valkyries. I hope to meet you at Inzane. I'll be on the green/silver Interstate with an Illinois plate that says SUBMIT

All the best,

Mark

[KW]

Thanks everyone for putting things into perspective. I think I got a little carried away in the moment.

Ptgb; I re-read that last paragraph and yes, it was not only “dramatic”, but just plain silly. I laughed out loud when I read it. I didn’t proof read my rant or even spell check it for that matter, so thank you for pointing that out to me.

Mark; I’ll be looking for you my brother.

John; We’re STILL planning on going to Florida this year. Just late and sans Valk.

Willow; no offense was intended.

Now, one humble correction if I may. I absolutely didn’t mean to impugn or demean the character, personality or even the ‘friendliness’ of the majority of the members here. In fact; it’s just the opposite.  Recently I posted on the Florida board I wasn’t bringing my bike down this year because I no longer have an enclosed trailer. A fellow in northern Michigan I don’t know and never met messaged me here and offered me his. He was genuine in the offer and even said he’d bring it down halfway to his son’s house, which is much closer. That floored me . . .   and it sums up this board nicely.

I still stand by the rest of my remarks. “It is what it is”

Peace

[buffalobill]

KW,
 I sometimes feel like writing verbatim what you posted. Than I remember where that got me before and I tend to roll it around in my spirit. I like to P_ _ _ off the enemy of ours by praying for that person instead, especially when they don't even know. I guess I am trying to simply say, "when you live your life for Christ, you don't have to tell anyone". They will see that there is something different about you and will glorify God. (my way of paraphrasing Matt 5:16. I hope to be able to attend this year, went to the last one in Johnson City, TN. I look forward to meeting you since we have so much in common.  

buffalobill

[Marcel]

KW I feel your pain.

Jesus came into this world to die for the sin of the whole world.

When as he puts it all have gone astray  no there is not one who is good, save God.

He even came into his own and his own knew him not.

If they did these things to him how do you expect to be treated better than him.

That is just the way it is, no mystery here on that.

He said Pray for those that despitefully use you and persecute you.

Because they don't do it to you, they are actually as he put it doing it to him.

If anybody be found in Christ then that person is dead to sin and alive to righteousness.

SO if the old man you used to be is dead , then you have a newness about you that

allows you to weather the storm.

THe World does not understand Jesus, only those that have been shown by the spirit

or the spirit has revealed to them who Jesus is.

Revalation is how you get to know him in a meaningful way.

THis is also the way  he said he will build his church.


Al

PS: The Jews did not kill Christ, it was by the hands of the Romans, and all our sins caused him to be

 nailed to that Cross.

The Sin of the world was what he died for.

That we could be forgiven by a Holy God.

I am never ashamed to be called one of his, although he may be ashamed of me sometimes.

[ricoman]

I do not understand this post.
You say "Believer" (in caps). Is this to point out that you are better than those who do not express their beliefs as vocally as you?
I remember a four letter word I learned that Christ often used. It is LOVE. I think if you agree with that you have no need to call upon the expressions/opinions of others as "Hatefulness".
Are you really exhibiting any different behavior in choosing to judge others? What about that four letter word?
Many have a strong faith but chose to not wear it on their sleeves or not sell it to others, or to not judge others for what they seem to be.
Rather than judge and deem "hateful", I would urge you to follow what you have been taught, and say a little prayer.
The loss at Inzane will only be yours.

[Carolyn Schmidt]

buffalobill......
from you post above
when you live your life for Christ, you don't have to tell anyone". They will see that there is something different about you and will glorify God. (my way of paraphrasing Matt 5:16.)

I'm looking for a topic for a devotion I'll be doing in a month or so. I decided I wanted to do "Let Your Light Shine". I have done a little research on it and was still wondering if this was my topic, well when I saw your post made me think "yep, this is what I'm going to do". You didn’t know when you posted that you'd be helping me make that decision too.

Thank you!
Blessings!
Hope to see you in July!

[elraque]

KW,

     I'm a born again. full gospel, Holy Spirit filled christian. It's who I am and why I was born. I'll discuss the bible, church, religion or politics with just about anyone. But I won't try and force my biblical beliefs on anyone. If anyone wants to know why I believe what I do, no problem, I'll tell them. And yes, silence is consent so I'll often give the why I do the things I do as well. I know what and who I once was and who and whose I am now.
     There are a few on this forum who seem to get their kicks by kicking at and provoking christians. I feel they are typically the easiest ones to submit to Christ if given a real opportunity. They think hate is the opposite of love when in reality it's indiferance. Those who are so quick to poke at christians are so often the ones crying out for One to believe in. They are often times tired of being their own god.
     Then again, some people have given themselves over to the prince of this world and are seemingly beyond repentance. Even unsaved people know there's right and wrong and good and bad. Not many unsaved people will poke fun at the religions that have no power. Many who don't know what to believe are often offended by those who are sure of their faith and know why.
     None of this will keep me away from Izane though. I've never been to one and I'm really looking forward to it. I'm also looking forward to some good fellowship with my brothers and sisters in Christ. It's always encouraging to hear what God is doing at their local church. As well as what others have done to their Valkyries. I hope to meet you at Inzane. I'll be on the green/silver Interstate with an Illinois plate that says SUBMIT

All the best,

Mark

What if a Muslim posted something religious, maybe quoted the Qu'ran? Would you be as accepting of their faith as you're asking them/us to be of yours?

Same question about a Mormon... what would YOUR tolerance level be?

I'm just askin'...

[Al in AK]

Glory 2 Emmanuel

[motomama]

Glory 2 Emmanuel

 

[John Schmidt]

buffalobill......
from you post above
when you live your life for Christ, you don't have to tell anyone". They will see that there is something different about you and will glorify God. (my way of paraphrasing Matt 5:16.)

I'm looking for a topic for a devotion I'll be doing in a month or so. I decided I wanted to do "Let Your Light Shine". I have done a little research on it and was still wondering if this was my topic, well when I saw your post made me think "yep, this is what I'm going to do". You didn’t know when you posted that you'd be helping me make that decision too.

Thank you!
Blessings!
Hope to see you in July!

Hey Carolyn, hope to see you and Pat again this summer. Along that same line of thinking(re. above post), I'm always reminded of something my dad used to tell me and I'm sure you've heard it before: "Be careful how you live. You may be the only Bible some people ever read."

I try, but I certainly stumble more times than I can count. I can only hope it hasn't wrongly influenced others...especially my girls.

[Chattanooga Mark]

elraque,

     Are you taking up an offense by what I wrote? You'd have to really want to I guess. But I thank you for your questions so here goes. I expect a Muslim to act like and say things like a Muslim. That means in accordance with their faith. Same as with a Mormon. My sister in law is a Jehovah's Witness, and guess what. I fully expect her to say and do things in accordance with her faith. I expect liars to lie, criminals to act like criminals and the unsaved and unrepentant to act like the unsaved and the unrepentant. I expect carnal christians to act like carnal christians. I also expect those who don't take a position on faith to act like they're their own god. Because that's what they're doing.
     As for the various 'christian' groups; I'm a big picture kind of guy. If you're for Jesus, brother, I'm for you. I like to major on the majors and minor on the minors. My dad was a Catholic his entire life. He loved Jesus and I know that I know that I know, his soul is in heaven. My mom is and has been a Lutheran her entire life. And guess what, she loves Jesus with all her heart and soul too. My church is a non-denominational, full gospel, Holy Spirit filled, miracle believing, hands laying on, tongue speaking, bible teaching, demon casting out Book of Acts church. Bible doctrine, not church doctrine is our guide. We also have two bible schools. One is a 3 year non accredited school and the other is a four year, fully accredited school. Please check us out at www.fwo.org. My pastor is Ed Weiss, his pastor is Mark T Barclay and Dr. Barclay's pastor is Hilton Sutton.  
     But I understand where we are here. This is an internet forum dedicated to a non current motorcycle. It's been set up for the enjoyment of those who enjoy the Honda Valkyrie. When I'm here, I obey the rules set by the host. If I were to come to your house, I'd obey your house rules. When people come to my house, they obey my house rules. But for me, regardless of where I am, I'm a christian first. It's really that simple for me.

All the best,

Mark

[solo1]

I am a Christian.  I share my religion when asked. 

I will be going to Inzane.  I won't be talking religion because I see it there.  I see it in the welcoming of everyone.  I see it in the special welcome that I get even though I no longer have a Valkyrie.  I see it in friends like Pat and Carolyn, Lori and Carl, Scott, Loth, John Schmidt, Li'll D and Big D, Karen, and so many others my feeble mind cannot recall.

Attend Inzane.  If you don't you will be missed.  If you do, you'll see what I mean.

[Dubsvalk]

KW,  I truly hope you attend InZane so that I can meet you!  Stand up for what you believe in, fear God more than man, and be an emmasary for God.  And don't forget to pray for those who haven't found Him yet.
Dubs

[alph]

What if a Muslim posted something religious, maybe quoted the Qu'ran? Would you be as accepting of their faith as you're asking them/us to be of yours?

Same question about a Mormon... what would YOUR tolerance level be?

I'm just askin'...

I use to be a christian, I use to be a catholic, from those two religious views I’ve seen people that proclaim themselves to be followers of “christ” butchering those within their own congregation.  Looking down their noses at someone else because they had an abortion, or they went to a strip club, as they light up a cigarette, and finish their beer.  I could not understand how superior some act over others, even though the bible teaches how your “righteousness is like a filthy rag…… “

I am a good person.  I will go out of my way to help others.  I am the person that picks up after others.  I am a servant.  If needed I will give you money.  But, because I don’t belong to “your” church, or “your” religious organization, I will be happy in “your” hell, mainly because YOU won’t be there!!  

My brother is a “born-again”, I would rather go to hell then to live in his heaven, with people of his type.  

Now, if I met YOU at Inzane, or any other cycle get together, I honestly don’t care what religion you are, I will shake your hand, and if I really like you, I’ll give you a hug (and for some, I’d be considered a fag, but that’s their problem).

All I’m there for are the cycles.  That’s all you should be there for also.  NO PREACHING ALOWED!!  Btw, I won’t be there this year.  Family comes first…..

[BigAlOfMD]

Show me one message on this or any other BBS posted by GOD 
Posts which reflect religious views of any kind will have replies.
Posts which reflect religious views contrary to the majority view will have more negative replies and personal attacts.
Posts which reflect your views will be more accepted by you even if they are personal attacts on people with opposing views.
Very simular to Political views.

[Dubsvalk]

Not all people professing to be Christians are.  And not all people professing to be atheasists are bad.  Having bad people in a church does not make the church bad; just those that are.  Even the best of us are sometimes bad.  We seek forgivness and and try to be better.  None of us are perfect.  Bashing is the least successful way for us to find the good in any of us.
Dubs

[POPS 57]

Man this is getting to be a long winter.  I can see it in this board and other boards. Other then that i have no opinion.   

[Garfield]

Man this is getting to be a long winter.  I can see it in this board and other boards. Other then that i have no opinion.   

You can say that again

[elraque]

elraque,

     Are you taking up an offense by what I wrote? You'd have to really want to I guess. But I thank you for your questions so here goes. I expect a Muslim to act like and say things like a Muslim. That means in accordance with their faith. Same as with a Mormon. My sister in law is a Jehovah's Witness, and guess what. I fully expect her to say and do things in accordance with her faith. I expect liars to lie, criminals to act like criminals and the unsaved and unrepentant to act like the unsaved and the unrepentant. I expect carnal christians to act like carnal christians. I also expect those who don't take a position on faith to act like they're their own god. Because that's what they're doing.
     As for the various 'christian' groups; I'm a big picture kind of guy. If you're for Jesus, brother, I'm for you. I like to major on the majors and minor on the minors. My dad was a Catholic his entire life. He loved Jesus and I know that I know that I know, his soul is in heaven. My mom is and has been a Lutheran her entire life. And guess what, she loves Jesus with all her heart and soul too. My church is a non-denominational, full gospel, Holy Spirit filled, miracle believing, hands laying on, tongue speaking, bible teaching, demon casting out Book of Acts church. Bible doctrine, not church doctrine is our guide. We also have two bible schools. One is a 3 year non accredited school and the other is a four year, fully accredited school. Please check us out at www.fwo.org. My pastor is Ed Weiss, his pastor is Mark T Barclay and Dr. Barclay's pastor is Hilton Sutton.  
     But I understand where we are here. This is an internet forum dedicated to a non current motorcycle. It's been set up for the enjoyment of those who enjoy the Honda Valkyrie. When I'm here, I obey the rules set by the host. If I were to come to your house, I'd obey your house rules. When people come to my house, they obey my house rules. But for me, regardless of where I am, I'm a christian first. It's really that simple for me.

All the best,

Mark

Thanks for the response, Mark.

I took no offense at what you wrote, in fact I agreed with it.

The point that I was making is that sometimes there is intolerance from those who preach tolerance. (Not so in your case, I hope).

Part of the reason that I gave those examples was that both Muslims and Mormons are frequently the target of intolerance. Muslims (radical ones) believe that Christians violate the fundamental premise of their faith by saying that God (Allah) needed a son/Son to accomplish the Atonement. This premise is directly from the Qu'ran. Their intolerance is in direct violation of the text of that same Qu'ran. (Yes, I have read the Qu'ran) The intolerance towards Muslims seems to be a response to their more radical (and outspoken) adherents.

The intolerance towards Mormons, however, seems to be of an entirely different nature. I have often heard Christians intolerance expressed as they rant and rail against the "evils of Mormonism," proclaiming that "Mormons aren't Christians." This in spite of (or perhaps in ignorance of) the fact that the official name of that church is "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, which name itself proclaims that the "Mormons" are Christians. (And yes, I have read the Book of Mormon, subtitled "Another Testament of Jesus Christ".)

It's great to hear from Christians like yourself (and others here) whose posts and behavior exemplifies the tolerance they (you) would like to enjoy from others who do not share your particular faith.

Faithful greetings right back atcha.

[Willow]

The point that I was making is that sometimes there is intolerance from those who preach tolerance. (Not so in your case, I hope).  

Pardon my intrusion into your conversation, elraque, but it appears you have mistaken acceptance for tolerance.  

I guess I'm one of those you would identify as intolerant.

Mormons are not Christians as orthodox Christianity defines itself (Yes, I, too, have read the Book of Mormon).  In actuality, the founders of the the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints did not identify themselves with other Christian denominations claiming that those had all ceased to be Christian.

Even the most casual follower of Islam would have to acknowledge that Christianity violates the fundamental premises of their faith.  I've read the Koran, but not in the original Arabic, so my reading wouldn't be acknowledged by a true Muslim.

I'm pretty certain that real tolerance requires us to respect others and especially to acknowledge their right within reason to hold and practice their differing beliefs, but not necessarily to cross our eyes and pretend we're all alike.      

[Chrisj CMA]

Id like to comment on the idea that  a religion can be Christian or not.  I think if you look closely through the Bible you will find that Jesus had the most trouble with "religious" people.  I have come to the strong belief that there can and will be folks from any and EVERY religion in Heaven.....Yes, the religion you claim today has very little to do with whether or not you are a Christian. There will also be some people from "so called" Christian religions that wont make it (like Catholics) I used to be Catholic...Catholics think their religion is Christian......It is NOT.  Its a religion.  I was not Christian when I was a practicing Catholic

Christianity is not a religion.  Its a relationship.......anyone from ANY religion can become a Christian (and they are all over the world)

A Christian is someone that has been made alive spiritually by the Holy Spirit through faith in Jesus Christ.  (Jesus being GOD, not some teacher dude as the Mormons think of him)

Ok so theres the question of does God know you and then theres the question...what church or "religion" do you currently practice.........the two have very little to do with each other.

So tolerance for me is this:  I respect what you believe even if I think its wrong.  Its what you believe and you have every right.  However, if you are not satisfied and you ask me why I have peace about this issue, I will not hesitate to talk to you.......this does not mean I think a person that does not accept Jesus as God, as his/her savior is a Christian or can spend eternity with God in Heaven, because I dont accept that.....

[Marcel]

The real thing is not to be taken lightly.

The real thing never gets promoted by any earthly source.

The real thing is not a Coca-Cola.

IT will always be put down by those that don't know Christ.

Example: Recent changes in school books reflect Muslim Beliefs, Hindu, Budhists, etc.

But mention Jesus and excuse me all hell breaks loose.

Example: Bilbles cannot be even carried into a Muslim Country without the threat of Death, Death.

Communist Countries are a little more tolarant, you will just get prison there.

Now for the kicker, even though communist, China has a vibrant Christian Church.

They are very acccepting of the Gospel.

Maybe that's one reason a certain entity is moving all our wealth to there shores instead of main

street in our country.

The reason the World does not persecute other religions like Jesus Believers is due to the fact


it is real and powerful.

YOu make the call.

It's pretty obvious.

Jesus is the answer for me and I hope he reveals himself to all of those that don't know him is my

 simple prayer

I have nothing to gain by telling you all this , in fact it will cost me, but it is the duty of all that

know this fellow called Jesus to tell you about his love, and the fact I

keep doing it from day to day is enough

for me.

[Big Mike]

I have said this before, Who in the world declared Christianity a religion in the first place? NOBODY! If this is true then where can I send the leader a letter? Who is in charge. Other "religions" have a headquarters bldg and a staff to respond to inquiries. Where is this for a Christian? Jesus did not preach or teach religion. He spoke of a personal relationship with Himself and the Father. Religion is all man made and that is why religion, in and of itself, generates all the controversy that is does, here and everywhere else.

[Marcel]

The Kingdom of God he said is within you.

The first believers were simply called People of the Way.

Pretty simple and yes religion kills but Jesus redeems us.

The simplicity and the not made by man's teachings, not controlled by man, is what drives

them to distraction.

Jesus (what will you do with him) is the only question you need to answer in this life we are given.

Whom do you say( he is) more specifically.

[~ Timbrwolf]

...Hay Al in Ark

.....what kinda trailer is that..(besides the devine kind)....I REALLY dig it...

[elraque]

The point that I was making is that sometimes there is intolerance from those who preach tolerance. (Not so in your case, I hope).  

Pardon my intrusion into your conversation, elraque, but it appears you have mistaken acceptance for tolerance.  

I guess I'm one of those you would identify as intolerant.

Mormons are not Christians as orthodox Christianity defines itself (Yes, I, too, have read the Book of Mormon).  In actuality, the founders of the the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints did not identify themselves with other Christian denominations claiming that those had all ceased to be Christian.

Even the most casual follower of Islam would have to acknowledge that Christianity violates the fundamental premises of their faith.  I've read the Koran, but not in the original Arabic, so my reading wouldn't be acknowledged by a true Muslim.

I'm pretty certain that real tolerance requires us to respect others and especially to acknowledge their right within reason to hold and practice their differing beliefs, but not necessarily to cross our eyes and pretend we're all alike.      

I guess you're right, you are one that, consequent to your own statement(s), I would identify as (in this instance) intolerant.

I base my judgement on the statement that YOU have made (not one that any church has made for you) about your determination (from your mortal and imperfect perspective) that Mormons cannot be Christians. (You are welcome to correct or educate me if I am wrong or uninformed about what you have posted.)

And that was exactly my point. Christ alone can know the hearts of men (and women). His knowledge extends to ALL -- to agnostics, to self-proclaimed Christians and even Mormons. He alone is qualified to determine which men and women (of whatever religion) have His Word written in their hearts. Personally, I believe that some Mormons do and some don't. I also believe that some "Christians" do and some don't. It is not within my purview to determine who are "true" Christians and which are not.

Your statement that "Mormons (or anyone else whose heart you do not and cannot know) are not Christian" is the logical precursor to the admission of your intolerance in your post above.

Willow, I have great respect and appreciation for you, for your opinions (though often different from my own), and for the various services that I have seen you perform. I learn much from you and from many others whose opinions and perspectives are different from my own. Part of that respect comes from our ability to disagree and remain friends. That, IMNSHO, is part of the value of a forum like this one with such a wide variety of perspectives, respectfully presented and respectfully received.

[Westsider]

 you could start a whole new forum for religion and politics,,,,,,,now where those valks n hooters..

[ricoman]

please!
enough already-everybody is right.
Now, for pete's sake, let's get back to talking about Valkyries!

[Willow]

You used a partial quote.  Your quote was:

Mormons cannot be Christians.

Mine was:

Mormons are not Christians as orthodox Christianity defines itself.     

The hair splitting difference is the precepts of orthodox Christianity and the stated beliefs of the Mormon church are mutually exclusive.  To further split hairs, it's possible for one who claims to be a Mormon to actually be a Christian and certainly true for one who claims to be a Christian to be a functional agnostic.  We could go on.

I agree with your point:

And that was exactly my point. Christ alone can know the hearts of men (and women). 

This is the part of the discussion where you and I could begin to discuss the Visible Church and the Church Invisible, but that would really aggravate a lot of people so we'll leave it for a more private time.

I'll take mutual respect over what passes for so called tolerance any day.  I am intolerant, at least in part.

Be safe and we'll see you either down the road or on the other side.

[Michael K (Az.)]

Cm'on Nah! This here's important stuff goin on!

[BIG--T]

KW,

     I'm a born again. full gospel, Holy Spirit filled christian. It's who I am and why I was born. I'll discuss the bible, church, religion or politics with just about anyone. But I won't try and force my biblical beliefs on anyone. If anyone wants to know why I believe what I do, no problem, I'll tell them. And yes, silence is consent so I'll often give the why I do the things I do as well. I know what and who I once was and who and whose I am now.
     There are a few on this forum who seem to get their kicks by kicking at and provoking christians. I feel they are typically the easiest ones to submit to Christ if given a real opportunity. They think hate is the opposite of love when in reality it's indiferance. Those who are so quick to poke at christians are so often the ones crying out for One to believe in. They are often times tired of being their own god.
     Then again, some people have given themselves over to the prince of this world and are seemingly beyond repentance. Even unsaved people know there's right and wrong and good and bad. Not many unsaved people will poke fun at the religions that have no power. Many who don't know what to believe are often offended by those who are sure of their faith and know why.
     None of this will keep me away from Izane though. I've never been to one and I'm really looking forward to it. I'm also looking forward to some good fellowship with my brothers and sisters in Christ. It's always encouraging to hear what God is doing at their local church. As well as what others have done to their Valkyries. I hope to meet you at Inzane. I'll be on the green/silver Interstate with an Illinois plate that says SUBMIT

All the best,

Mark

I totally agree!! I never brow beat someone over the head with my bible. I will be glad to answer any questions if asked though. Before I was born again, I had a wild and crazy past and but by the grace of God I'm still here to tell about it.  So I know where most are cominfg from and have compassion for them because I've been there.

[BIG--T]

I’ve stayed away from posting anything in a so called ‘religious’ thread. In fact; I don’t think I ever have, but it hasn’t been easy for me not to speak up when I read all the hateful, vile things Christians are called here at this board . . . and I just can’t stay silent any longer.

There are members here who ONLY post when THEY judge something to be ‘religious’ or “God” related. Then they immediately jump in, sharing their ‘superior intellect’ and ‘advance insight’ with the (very) few Believers who DARE to occasionally post something THEY determine is objectionable. There’s one person in particular who only posts so he can inform everyone that if you’re a Believer, you’re basically a “retard” (his words during one of rants in the past.) The arrogance and intellectual dishonestly of this posturing is astonishing. It’s as bad as “sending thoughts your way” when someone is having surgery or some other tragedy. What does that MEAN? Do you think it provides any comfort to the person in need?

The point is; the Administrators of this board would NEVER allow anyone to BASH any other group, by any definition or classification, as they allow Christians to be bashed here.  Believers on this board are called, with impunity and without fear of retribution, “stupid”, “bigoted”, “narrow-minded”, “judgmental” and even “racist.”  How do I know they’re not being checked? The same 3 or 4 people continually post the same attacks over and over and over. . .    

I don’t drink and the only girl I ever want to gawk at is the one I married as a teenager 32 years ago. I made that decision based primarily on my Faith, a Faith that DEMANDS that I DON’T judge those who do want to do those things. In fact; I could care less what you do, but the same courtesy isn’t extended to me or anyone else of Faith.  We’re regulated to the closet and ANY expressions of Faith or Belief in public is immediately attacked, yet non-believers are allowed to express the belief of secularism in any public forum, including here. Want proof? Do a search and see how some of the most benign, innocent posting referencing “God” is attacked here at the VRCC.  I get it though . . . It’s just the world in which we live now. I even understand why they shout so loudly, though I suspect they don’t.  

At the end of the day, I know the posting of hatefulness on this site - or any site for that matter - really doesn’t matter. It truly represent cowardliness in the extreme. A nameless, faceless person sitting in front of a computer screen somewhere spits this stuff out, uncontested, and without fear of direct contradiction or rebuttal.

The sad part is; I was REALLY looking forward to and planning on this summer InZane. And yes, it would have been our first. There’s some southern boys here who’d I would love to meet and sit down with and ‘kick the game.’ Now, after thinking it through, I’m not sure I’d even be welcomed.

KW it's great that you're standing up for your faith!  And this old southern boy welcomes you! I am a newbie on this board and need to find out what InZane is all about. Something like a Wingding??