Get rid of your 6 carbs and have only one

[Grouchy Old Bear]

I am looking at offering a carb conversion for the Valkyrie. I made this modification myself and it has worked out better thanI could hope.

I took a stock Harley CV carb and mounted it a special adapter of my design. I am getting the full power range and no lag or hesitation. One drawback is I am now losing 1-2 mpg but I have not tried adjusting the jets or done any fine tuning to the design.

I wanted to know if anyone may be interested in this conversion. I am going to sell it as a assisted conversion where the customer does the conversion and I would supervise and assist and provide a working model to verify the conversion.

The custom pieces would be provided by myself and the customer can buy the stock pieces to save some money. I have verified this will work on 1996 - 1999 Valkyries. I need to further research newer models.

Would anyone be interested in this?

Thanks.......Brian

[bigvalkriefan]

Wow, great job designing it. It seems like it would make changing jets a lot easier when you make a exhaust change or the like! Other than that do you see any other advantages to this setup?

[Valker]

Why?

[98valk]

an individual runner intake system which is what the OEM system is and once correctly setup will always make better HP, LB-TQ and MPG than a single carb system. There are many books out there like ones by David Vizard that explain this and prove it in detail.
this is one of the reasons the valkyrie makes more power than the Goldwing GL1500. MPG is about the same due to the cheap lousy ignition setup the valkyire has. the GL1500 uses a vacuum advance ignition system with additional sensors to maximize the mpg.

[Jess from VA]

In addition to (hopefully) some simplification in maintaining and tuning 6 carbs, wouldn't the principle reason be fuel economy (hopefully significant enough to pay for the entire modification)?



 

[Grouchy Old Bear]

Wow, great job designing it. It seems like it would make changing jets a lot easier when you make a exhaust change or the like! Other than that do you see any other advantages to this setup?

I was tired of the time and expense of keeping the carbs tuned and cleaned. It was becoming an annual event. It is much cheaper and easier to manage 1 carb.

[Grouchy Old Bear]

Why?

Because.

[Grouchy Old Bear]

In addition to (hopefully) some simplification in maintaining and tuning 6 carbs, wouldn't the principle reason be fuel economy (hopefully significant enough to pay for the entire modification)?

That was what I was hoping would happen and I have not achieved the balance of power and fuel economy. I adjusted everything out till I got a throttle response (hesitations or lean fuel mix) that the 6 pack gavve me. Now I am trying to fine components till I get at least similar performance. 

[Valker]

Why?

Because.

Guess I'm just blessed.... At 125,000 and my 6 carbs have never needed to be cleaned, nor have they ever required adjustment. Every time I've taken them to be synchronized, they have all been within specs. Gas mileage is about average with 32 mpg for most 70+ cruising, 40s for slower stuff like the Blue Ridge Parkway, and low 50s for Rocky Mountain sightseeing.

[Old Geezer Richard]

 Hey Brian ,  I had done the same thing with my old 1981 1100 Goldwing  ...  got tired of messing around with four carbs. so I made up three manifolds , the first had a one barrel carb off a 1963 or 64 ford mustang six banger with a K & N filter with manual choke controls up on handle bars and routed the throttle cable so I could use the M/C throttle and it worked ... I was getting 40 mpg and the only draw back was it sure cold natured , took for ever to warmup the down tubes but it worked  ...  the second and third manifolds were modified like yours but I chose to use a bigger one barrel carb that came on the bigger chevy six bangers and it worked too but it was alot taller than the ford one barrel but I found a filter that worked  ...  I remember a guy here in San Antonio had modified a Valk with an old holley three barrel with a modified manifold similar to yours and I heard it worked , never saw it just heard about it ... about how much is the manifold by itself and how much for the whole kit ? can you use any other type of carb on your manifold ? Thanks the Geezer

[Bobbo]

What have you done to keep the fuel in suspension during its trip down that long intake runner?  Fuel condensation is usually the problem with a carburetor and a long runner, and that is why a short runner is best with a carburetor.  Having no way to heat the manifold will enhance the condensation.  Also, the dynamics of the manifold will affect the volumetric efficiency of each intake/cylinder pair.  Unequal runners can cause harmonics that will make some cylinders run lean, while others are rich.

If simplicity is your goal, then this will do it.  I doubt you will be able to tune it to equal the power and efficiency of the stock carb banks.

[John Schmidt]

This uses Weber carbs which can be set up to operate any way you like, just read the info on the site. Not only that, it would look way cool with those things poking out either side. If I had the spare funds, I'd do it in a minute. I don't think you would lose any performance at all...maybe pick up some. Check it out, it's an automotive application but could easily be adapted to the Valk. I'm wondering if the blower manifold used by those that have them would accept this.
http://www.jiminglese.com/weber5_008.htm

As for a single carb compared to the multi setup, a few years back there was a guy here in central Florida that made a conversion kit for the four cylinder Wings. He furnished the manifold and a single barrel Holley, along with some misc. parts to do the switch. I did it on an old GL1000 I had, and the Holley was set up with the jet size for an 1100. After the change, I then switched to solid state ignition with Accel coils, also removed the ballast resistor so I would have a full 12v to the ignition. It took some work to tune it right, but it turned out to be a screamer. I removed a lot of the extra baggage on the frame to reduce weight as well(fenders, side panels, etc.). As a result, I have no doubt it would have spanked my Valk rather easily.

[Kymbo]

Now that sort manifold with a turbo setup would be food for thought

[98valk]

This uses Weber carbs which can be set up to operate any way you like, just read the info on the site. Not only that, it would look way cool with those things poking out either side. If I had the spare funds, I'd do it in a minute. I don't think you would lose any performance at all...maybe pick up some. Check it out, it's an automotive application but could easily be adapted to the Valk. I'm wondering if the blower manifold used by those that have them would accept this.
http://www.jiminglese.com/weber5_008.htm

http://www.jiminglese.com/weber5_005.htm    same basic design as the stock carbs except stock carbs are varible via the slide. They can be set up anyway one wants to. As mentioned on the site 3 circuits to tune, and with a CV carb partial 4 circuits if one includes the idle mixture screw.
an IR system is the best carburated system out there for street use, why would one go backwards?

[tybme]

Very interesting and looks like you did some good work there - I applaud you.

You may also find a few interested parties at goldwingfacts.com as there has been an endless debate over there about going to a single carb. (plus with all the plastic a GW has to hide the setup many could be very interested.)

[hubcapsc]

I can only say, with all honesty and respect, that you must be an AWESOME mechanic, and I'm jealous...

Would anyone be interested in this?

Not me  My Valkyrie runs rich and gets lousy mileage, but it starts easy and runs pretty much
like a Valkyrie... after I start screwing around with it and get it to where it won't hardly crank, I might get
back with you then... 

-Mike

[Jeff K]

Looks like a stock GL1500 manifold... I think I still have one or two laying around.

[Tinman]

That looks good to me. Have you considered a throttle body from a 6cyl chevy and going fuel injection with that setup? I have been talking with a guy in California that makes inserts that take the place of the  slides and holds fuel injectors. But there would be 6 injectors with all that plumbing.
I was thinking the GL1500 intake and carbs with the fuel injectors. Less plumbing and only 2 injectors.
Aren't the gl1500 intakes split?
Jeff K Mark told me to talk to you about this also.
I was wondering if the intakes this one and GL1500 could be chromed.
Don't want to remove too much jewelry from the fat girl...;-P

[98valk]

That looks good to me. Have you considered a throttle body from a 6cyl chevy and going fuel injection with that setup? I have been talking with a guy in California that makes inserts that take the place of the  slides and holds fuel injectors. But there would be 6 injectors with all that plumbing.
I was thinking the GL1500 intake and carbs with the fuel injectors. Less plumbing and only 2 injectors.
Aren't the gl1500 intakes split?
Jeff K Mark told me to talk to you about this also.
I was wondering if the intakes this one and GL1500 could be chromed.
Don't want to remove too much jewelry from the fat girl...;-P

a carb's venturi atomizes the fuel/air mixture much much better than an injector can. Better atomization (vapor) is how fuel burns and makes more power and mpg the better it is. The 12 hole injectors used on some bikes are getting closer but still aren't there. most of the mpg gains from fuel injection is during cold start warmup time and when the throttle is closed due to the injectors shutting off, no fuel burning at all. carbs are still burning fuel at closed throttle.

[Jeff K]

That looks good to me. Have you considered a throttle body from a 6cyl chevy and going fuel injection with that setup? I have been talking with a guy in California that makes inserts that take the place of the  slides and holds fuel injectors. But there would be 6 injectors with all that plumbing.
I was thinking the GL1500 intake and carbs with the fuel injectors. Less plumbing and only 2 injectors.
Aren't the gl1500 intakes split?
Jeff K Mark told me to talk to you about this also.
I was wondering if the intakes this one and GL1500 could be chromed.
Don't want to remove too much jewelry from the fat girl...;-P

a carb's venturi atomizes the fuel/air mixture much much better than an injector can. Better atomization (vapor) is how fuel burns and makes more power and mpg the better it is. The 12 hole injectors used on some bikes are getting closer but still aren't there. most of the mpg gains from fuel injection is during cold start warmup time and when the throttle is closed due to the injectors shutting off, no fuel burning at all. carbs are still burning fuel at closed throttle.

WTH? 

[98valk]

Mr WTH  ,

I guess Mr Johnson doesn't know what he is talking about either.

Warren Johnson: A carb’s pressure differential atomizes the gas a lot better than spraying fuel through an orifice.

http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/carburetor_vs_injection/index.html

http://www.ftzracing.com/CarbsorInjection.htm

Carburetors are superior from the perspective of atomization and vaporization when compared to low pressure EFI.
http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=8340&start=930


The SmartCarb™ is a simple single circuit fuel system comprised of multiple patented features. The SmartCarb™ works by hammering fuel with air velocity at supersonic speeds breaking down the fuel particles into 8 to 12 micron particulate size. Comparatively, fuel injection typically atomizes fuel to 18 to 22 micron particulate size.
http://www.powerapt.com/products.html

[Jeff K]

Mr WTH  ,

I guess Mr Johnson doesn't know what he is talking about either.

Warren Johnson: A carb’s pressure differential atomizes the gas a lot better than spraying fuel through an orifice.

http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/carburetor_vs_injection/index.html

http://www.ftzracing.com/CarbsorInjection.htm

Carburetors are superior from the perspective of atomization and vaporization when compared to low pressure EFI.
http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=8340&start=930


The SmartCarb™ is a simple single circuit fuel system comprised of multiple patented features. The SmartCarb™ works by hammering fuel with air velocity at supersonic speeds breaking down the fuel particles into 8 to 12 micron particulate size. Comparatively, fuel injection typically atomizes fuel to 18 to 22 micron particulate size.
http://www.powerapt.com/products.html

Did you read the article you posted a link to? Or did you just cherry pick a sentence or two to validate your claim? You should probably contact all the motorcycle and car MFGs and tell them that they are all taking the wrong path!! They are apparently way off track! 

most of the mpg gains from fuel injection is during cold start warmup time and when the throttle is closed due to the injectors shutting off, no fuel burning at all. carbs are still burning fuel at closed throttle.

So,
When the the throttle is closed the injectors shut off?
Tough to idle without fuel.

[Jeff K]

Typical EFI will not make any more hp than a carb.
It can improve MPG
It can widen the power band

[98valk]

Typical EFI will not make any more hp than a carb.
It can improve MPG
It can widen the power band

all FI vehicles when coasting down and off the throttle shut off fuel flow. if the brakes are hit or a certain low speed mph is acheived fuel is turned back on. so coasting from 70mph down to 20 mph no fuel is being used.

I can tell from your response that u don't have a complete thorough knowledge of the subject.

the mfg went to FI because of govt mandated laws. because of these laws every vehicle going down the hwy could be getting approx 10mpg more at hwy speeds if the EPA didn't madate 14.7:1 airfuel ratio all of the time. wasted fuel so that the cat converter will work for a few PPM cleaner air.
do u know that all vehicles are now air filters for the EPA. the exhaust is cleaner than the intake air.
this is why u are paying 10k or more for vehicles today, all of the EPA mandated electronics.

my org point which u didn't like and which I have shown from other sources is that a carb venturi atomizes the fuel better than an injector. some new designs incorpate the best design aspects of FIs and carbs. Direct injection is more about emissions and not MPG or power. from start to finish a FI system will give better mpg however an IR system which I org stated can be extremely efficient close to an FI system at a much much lower cost. please read some books on the subject such as ones by David Vizard or internal combustion engine design books.
Enjoy.

[Jeff K]

Typical EFI will not make any more hp than a carb.
It can improve MPG
It can widen the power band

all FI vehicles when coasting down and off the throttle shut off fuel flow. if the brakes are hit or a certain low speed mph is acheived fuel is turned back on. so coasting from 70mph down to 20 mph no fuel is being used.

I can tell from your response that u don't have a complete thorough knowledge of the subject.

the mfg went to FI because of govt mandated laws. because of these laws every vehicle going down the hwy could be getting approx 10mpg more at hwy speeds if the EPA didn't madate 14.7:1 airfuel ratio all of the time. wasted fuel so that the cat converter will work for a few PPM cleaner air.
do u know that all vehicles are now air filters for the EPA. the exhaust is cleaner than the intake air.
this is why u are paying 10k or more for vehicles today, all of the EPA mandated electronics.

my org point which u didn't like and which I have shown from other sources is that a carb venturi atomizes the fuel better than an injector. some new designs incorpate the best design aspects of FIs and carbs. Direct injection is more about emissions and not MPG or power. from start to finish a FI system will give better mpg however an IR system which I org stated can be extremely efficient close to an FI system at a much much lower cost. please read some books on the subject such as ones by David Vizard or internal combustion engine design books.
Enjoy.

I don't normally read your posts. I need to work harder on avoiding them.

[Hoser]

Why?

Because.

Guess I'm just blessed.... At 125,000 and my 6 carbs have never needed to be cleaned, nor have they ever required adjustment. Every time I've taken them to be synchronized, they have all been within specs. Gas mileage is about average with 32 mpg for most 70+ cruising, 40s for slower stuff like the Blue Ridge Parkway, and low 50s for Rocky Mountain sightseeing.

The more you ride the less maintenance the carbs need.  JMHO   Hoser

[quexpress]

Looks like a stock GL1500 manifold... I think I still have one or two laying around.

That's the first thing that came to my mind also Jeff. One could simply take everything from the GL1500 (both carbs, etc.).... but I'm staying with my 6 carbs. 

[98valk]

Typical EFI will not make any more hp than a carb.
It can improve MPG
It can widen the power band

all FI vehicles when coasting down and off the throttle shut off fuel flow. if the brakes are hit or a certain low speed mph is acheived fuel is turned back on. so coasting from 70mph down to 20 mph no fuel is being used.

I can tell from your response that u don't have a complete thorough knowledge of the subject.

the mfg went to FI because of govt mandated laws. because of these laws every vehicle going down the hwy could be getting approx 10mpg more at hwy speeds if the EPA didn't madate 14.7:1 airfuel ratio all of the time. wasted fuel so that the cat converter will work for a few PPM cleaner air.
do u know that all vehicles are now air filters for the EPA. the exhaust is cleaner than the intake air.
this is why u are paying 10k or more for vehicles today, all of the EPA mandated electronics.

my org point which u didn't like and which I have shown from other sources is that a carb venturi atomizes the fuel better than an injector. some new designs incorpate the best design aspects of FIs and carbs. Direct injection is more about emissions and not MPG or power. from start to finish a FI system will give better mpg however an IR system which I org stated can be extremely efficient close to an FI system at a much much lower cost. please read some books on the subject such as ones by David Vizard or internal combustion engine design books.
Enjoy.

I don't normally read your posts. I need to work harder on avoiding them.

is this true?

"Even JeffK will tell you it's not worth the time, effort, or the money.  He has pretty much said as much on the VRCC.  If you are a tinkerer and just want to do it for fun, have at it.  But do not expect any great gains in performance or gas mileage...at least not enough to justify the cost."
http://valkyrie-owners.com/SMFORUM/index.php?PHPSESSID=5ab5a7ca60d256f28519acd5231eb7e7&topic=6627.0

and don't worry I'm avoiding this board as much as possible.

[Farther]

The more you ride the less maintenance the carbs need.  JMHO   Hoser

+1!!!

[RonW]

That's the first thing that came to my mind also Jeff. One could simply take everything from the GL1500 (both carbs, etc.).... but I'm staying with my 6 carbs. 

I believe he's selling the "adapter" that interfaces a single carb to the 2-part GL1500 manifold. The standard parts you provide yourself unless the GL1500 manifold needs modification itself.

[Grouchy Old Bear]

Hey Brian ,  I had done the same thing with my old 1981 1100 Goldwing  ...  got tired of messing around with four carbs. so I made up three manifolds , the first had a one barrel carb off a 1963 or 64 ford mustang six banger with a K & N filter with manual choke controls up on handle bars and routed the throttle cable so I could use the M/C throttle and it worked ... I was getting 40 mpg and the only draw back was it sure cold natured , took for ever to warmup the down tubes but it worked  ...  the second and third manifolds were modified like yours but I chose to use a bigger one barrel carb that came on the bigger chevy six bangers and it worked too but it was alot taller than the ford one barrel but I found a filter that worked  ...  I remember a guy here in San Antonio had modified a Valk with an old holley three barrel with a modified manifold similar to yours and I heard it worked , never saw it just heard about it ... about how much is the manifold by itself and how much for the whole kit ? can you use any other type of carb on your manifold ? Thanks the Geezer

Well I am giving away my secrets but anyone with a discerning eye will easily identify the GL1500 intake manifolds. I found 2 used ones on ebay for $60 and a little sandblasting, viola'. This got me from 6 intakes to 2 so this is where the customization happened. I had to make a 2-into-1 adapter to finish the last step (took me 3 prototypes to get it right, and I think I could improve it more). Once I got it there it was a simple matter sliding a Harley carb (friend had one for $40) onto the end and a airfilter on the front of that. Reroute throttle cables, plug vacuum lines and a couple other mods.

I think I have about $180 in all invested in this. Sure beats the $850+ the dealership wanted to fix my carbs.


 

[Grouchy Old Bear]

What have you done to keep the fuel in suspension during its trip down that long intake runner?  Fuel condensation is usually the problem with a carburetor and a long runner, and that is why a short runner is best with a carburetor.  Having no way to heat the manifold will enhance the condensation.  Also, the dynamics of the manifold will affect the volumetric efficiency of each intake/cylinder pair.  Unequal runners can cause harmonics that will make some cylinders run lean, while others are rich.

If simplicity is your goal, then this will do it.  I doubt you will be able to tune it to equal the power and efficiency of the stock carb banks.

Close to factory performance was the goal. Didn't have the $850+ to get the carbs cleaned and balanced. Even the rebuild kits are $150+.

[Grouchy Old Bear]

Looks like a stock GL1500 manifold... I think I still have one or two laying around.

Yes they are. Far as I know GL1500 used the same part # from 1996-1999. So any should fit 96-99 Valks.

And 2 are preferable.

[Grouchy Old Bear]

I can only say, with all honesty and respect, that you must be an AWESOME mechanic, and I'm jealous...

Would anyone be interested in this?

Not me  My Valkyrie runs rich and gets lousy mileage, but it starts easy and runs pretty much
like a Valkyrie... after I start screwing around with it and get it to where it won't hardly crank, I might get
back with you then... 

-Mike

Thanks, but I am just a tinkerer.

[Grouchy Old Bear]

That looks good to me. Have you considered a throttle body from a 6cyl chevy and going fuel injection with that setup? I have been talking with a guy in California that makes inserts that take the place of the  slides and holds fuel injectors. But there would be 6 injectors with all that plumbing.
I was thinking the GL1500 intake and carbs with the fuel injectors. Less plumbing and only 2 injectors.
Aren't the gl1500 intakes split?
Jeff K Mark told me to talk to you about this also.
I was wondering if the intakes this one and GL1500 could be chromed.
Don't want to remove too much jewelry from the fat girl...;-P

They're aluminum so after I got everything tuned I planned on polishing them.

[Grouchy Old Bear]

That's the first thing that came to my mind also Jeff. One could simply take everything from the GL1500 (both carbs, etc.).... but I'm staying with my 6 carbs. 

I believe he's selling the "adapter" that interfaces a single carb to the 2-part GL1500 manifold. The standard parts you provide yourself unless the GL1500 manifold needs modification itself.

Correct. I am just seeing if there is any interest out there for this mod. I don't want to waste time or money on something nobody wants/needs.


And yes those are stock GL1500 manifolds. Nothing except plugging the excess vacuum lines.

[GreenLantern57]

Just a question. Why not put a Nissan or Honda car carb on it?  My 82 Datsun (last year before changing to Nissan) was an 1.4 4-cyl and it was normal carb, not a TBI.  I believe my 85 Nissan Hardbody PU had an 2 lt. engine and was normal carb too!

FWIW, new Hondas that are labled Ultra low emmisions, do not have a catalytic converter.  Ford and Nissan have them also.

[gregc]

Hey jeffk, you and I must have gone to different fuel injection schools together. I agree, electronic multi port injection will beat a carb, or six carbs hands down, on both power and mpg.  If the fuel was shut off when you were coasting, it would play hell on the emissions.  Maybe he is thinking of the displacement on demand motors, where the cylinders are cancelled when full power in not called for. Guess direct injection is not good either with the new 6 cylinder camaro making 306 hp.

[RonW]

[Bobbo]

[I don't normally read your posts. I need to work harder on avoiding them.

What CA posted was mostly true, it was just explained in a clumsy way.  I don’t agree with his comments on the EPA mandate for FI is for sinister reasons, though.