I Find It Difficult, Holding Teachers 100% Responsible

[G-Man]

For the performance of their students.  Consider this.........Private school students do better on average than their public school counterparts.  Parents of private school kids, through their proprty taxes and tuition have more of an immediate and real investment, therefore put more time, on average, into their kids' education.

I don't like that teachers have become the face of the public unions.  Post pics of the DMV employees and even the Dems of Wisconsin would come back to vote.   

[Jess from VA]

Add to this that public schools are becoming full-scale PC soclialist training camps.   

Sadly, private schools are beyond the reach of most.

I do agree that parents of privately schooled children are more likely to actively assist in their education.  As are home-school.

[Bobbo]

For the performance of their students.  Consider this.........Private school students do better on average than their public school counterparts.  Parents of private school kids, through their proprty taxes and tuition have more of an immediate and real investment, therefore put more time, on average, into their kids' education.

I don't like that teachers have become the face of the public unions.  Post pics of the DMV employees and even the Dems of Wisconsin would come back to vote.   

While I agree that teachers are only a small part of a student's performance, there are other factors beyond teachers and students in the private versus public school comparison.  Private schools regularly expel low performing or disruptive students, whereas public schools usually cannot.  In private schools there are tutor programs at extra cost for low performers, if they choose.  It is less common to have these programs in public schools.

[RuthlessRider]

When was the last time you were in a public school all day long?

My wife is a public school teacher and many of our friends are. They include Viet Nam veterans, ex-managers of Frito_Lay, son of a police officer, etc., hardly a group I would call socialists.

[Jeff K]

When was the last time you were in a public school all day long?

My wife is a public school teacher and many of our friends are. They include Viet Nam veterans, ex-managers of Frito_Lay, son of a police officer, etc., hardly a group I would call socialists.

Are you saying that the professions you listed can't possibly have any socialists among them?  ???

[Bonzo]

Our kids will get out of a public school education what they put into it. Shame on us the parents if we do not take an active role in their education. Cutting funding to public schools and scape goating teachers is just an easy way to divert attention from what the real problems are.

[RuthlessRider]

"Are you saying that the professions you listed can't possibly have any socialists among them?"

No! Are you saying all teachers are socialists?

[Jeff K]

"Are you saying that the professions you listed can't possibly have any socialists among them?"

No! Are you saying all teachers are socialists?

Now where the hell did you come up with that out of the one question I asked? I never made a statement, I asked a question.

[valkmc]

If only most people knew what teachers "teach" in todays public school, here are a few I have had in the last couple of years:

a 17 yr old who shot and killed a 20 yr old
a 17 year old who worked 40 hours per week and his parents took the pay check to support the 7 brothers and sisters all living in a 2 bedroom mobil home-he slept alot in class
a 17 yr old who had a baby at the begining of this school year and has been arrested for driving w/o a license 4 times and missed several wks of school because she was in the county jail
a 16 yr old who was arrested for felony battery (his mom)
because public schools include students with learning disabilities in regular classes I have students who can not read and/or write. I have to read test to them.

On the bright side I teach Criminal Justice, I have several Police officers, correctional officers, and students who have gone on to get 4 year degrees in CJ, even a couple who are in Law School, all who have gone through my program.

In contrast our local private school would not accept any of the students mentioned above and is prone to sending students who can not keep up back to us.

With all that said I welcome some form of performance based pay, I think it will motivate teachers to due their best.

I also think politicians pay could be tied to unemployment rates, student performance (they pass the laws on what and how teachers teach), crime rates etc....

Last but not least, I do not allow students to know my political views. I do my best to teach them that knowledge is important to understand what is going on around them. Things like looking at who writes an article and what is the motivation for the author, that goverment is suppose to work for us as citizens and to understand there are rights and responsibilities to being a good citizen.

I am not a socialist.

[RuthlessRider]

Don't take this wrong, I have no "socialist" agenda. But, I am in awe of the conservatives, not the working people of this nation who have a tendency to think of themselves as conservative (and maybe some truly are), but the neo-conservatives who do have an agenda and it is not about taxes. They have managed to keep the shrinking middle class arguing amongst ourselves about taxes and the like. If that 20% who own 80% of hte wealth of this nationy paid just a tad more for the privileges they enjoy, the rest of us (80%) would not have to fight over the scraps that fall off the table.

[Serk]

Here's a radical idea...

How about we let teachers TEACH instead of forcing them to train students to pass one standardized test or another?

Teaching the ability to THINK isn't required to pass these standardized tests, just rote memorization, to the point that most teachers are shackled by the system into doing nothing more then training their students to pass an arbitrary test. Actual teaching has been forced out of the system...

(No, I'm not a teacher, but my mother, two aunts, and sister all are or were, so I have a little exposure to the situation.)

[RuthlessRider]

To Jeff K

Now where the hell did you come up with that out of the one question I asked? I never made a statement, I asked a question.

I stand corrected. I guess I was referring to the original statement about "PC socialist training camps." as though all teachers are socialists.

[Big Rig]

Being the parent of two boys, 6 and 7 yo. I see on a daily basis what they are being taught by the homework they bring home. I am not claiming to be a great parent, but I do what I can. I know teachers who teach and teachers that stick with what they have been doing for years. I think (MHO) they should be based on performance and not standard test. My oldest (2nd grade)sons teacher (close to retirement) sends home worksheets based on these standardized test. Based on time to complete, not based on actual knowledge of the subject. I do find this very disturbing. When I discuss this with neighboring parents with children in my sons grade, they all have different teachers. Several send home the same worksheets, based on the performance testing (all older teachers 50+) The children with younger (newer) teachers use other methods. We all (parents) spend time with our children and homework assignments. We also share homework worksheets to make sure our children are gettng similar education.

I guess my out look teacher give guidance for education, parents teach.

flame away if you like...

[Jeff K]

I took my son out of public school in Syracuse because I didn't like the direction the school was taking him. They said he was "learning disabled". I had him tested at a Catholic school, they said he was behind but if I put him in summer school they would take him. He got caught up and everything was fine until we moved to Fl. he begged to be allowed to finish his Junior and Senior year in public school. That was a bad Idea. He did manage to finish high school though. Hated all the liberal crap he would come home talking about. Now oddly enough he has converted to a conservative all on his own.  

Didn't take any chances with my Daughter when crap started hitting the fan in Public school we bit the bullet and put her in a small private school all the way through high school.

[Bobbo]

Being the parent of two boys, 6 and 7 yo. I see on a daily basis what they are being taught by the homework they bring home. I am not claiming to be a great parent, but I do what I can. I know teachers who teach and teachers that stick with what they have been doing for years. I think (MHO) they should be based on performance and not standard test. My oldest (2nd grade)sons teacher (close to retirement) sends home worksheets based on these standardized test. Based on time to complete, not based on actual knowledge of the subject. I do find this very disturbing. When I discuss this with neighboring parents with children in my sons grade, they all have different teachers. Several send home the same worksheets, based on the performance testing (all older teachers 50+) The children with younger (newer) teachers use other methods. We all (parents) spend time with our children and homework assignments. We also share homework worksheets to make sure our children are gettng similar education.

I guess my out look teacher give guidance for education, parents teach.

flame away if you like...

I think a lot of what you describe is a result of the "No Child Left Behind" act.

[fiddle mike]

When was the last time you were in a public school all day long?

My wife is a public school teacher and many of our friends are. They include Viet Nam veterans, ex-managers of Frito_Lay, son of a police officer, etc., hardly a group I would call socialists.

I would. They are working in a socialized system.  Vets in cop uniforms are the ones enforcing socialist dictates, like the "motorcycle only" checkpoints that have been in the news, lately.  None are going to do anything to jeopardize their pensions. "If its code, enforce it".

[Brad]

Being the parent of two boys, 6 and 7 yo. I see on a daily basis what they are being taught by the homework they bring home. I am not claiming to be a great parent, but I do what I can. I know teachers who teach and teachers that stick with what they have been doing for years. I think (MHO) they should be based on performance and not standard test. My oldest (2nd grade)sons teacher (close to retirement) sends home worksheets based on these standardized test. Based on time to complete, not based on actual knowledge of the subject. I do find this very disturbing. When I discuss this with neighboring parents with children in my sons grade, they all have different teachers. Several send home the same worksheets, based on the performance testing (all older teachers 50+) The children with younger (newer) teachers use other methods. We all (parents) spend time with our children and homework assignments. We also share homework worksheets to make sure our children are gettng similar education.

I guess my out look teacher give guidance for education, parents teach.

flame away if you like...

I think a lot of what you describe is a result of the "No Child Left Behind" act.

Yep, "No Child Left Behind" is to blame for a lot of the current problems with the education system.  My wife teaches in public school here in Nevada and neither one of us can believe the nonsense that passes for "teaching".  At the elementary school she works at (a title one school in a poor part of town) the teachers have been instructed to not give the students home work because their parents wont help them do it or make sure that they do it.  Nevada has a 50% drop out rate and no amount of money will change that.  Parents need to step up and help teach their children and make sure their children do the work required to learn.  Another thing that frosts me, the English speaking children get put into a class of about 25 to 30 students.  The ESL kids have 8 in a class with a teacher and a teachers aid.

[Jess from VA]

I knew I should have qualified my original statement.  Apologies.

The curriculum, procedure, subject mater is tightly controlled (and awfully PC in part).

I believe many teachers, esp newer ones that have come up thru the system over the last two decades, have fully accepted the cool aid.

I know there are plenty of exceptions, no doubt some great exceptions.

My comment was directed at public schools (as opposed to private) in general, not teachers.... entirely.

[Bob E.]

For the performance of their students.  Consider this.........Private school students do better on average than their public school counterparts.  Parents of private school kids, through their proprty taxes and tuition have more of an immediate and real investment, therefore put more time, on average, into their kids' education.

I don't like that teachers have become the face of the public unions.  Post pics of the DMV employees and even the Dems of Wisconsin would come back to vote.   

I won't argue whether private school kids outperform public school kids as a whole.  I'm sure they do.  But I'm not sure I'm buying the "investment" theory related to property taxes.  I don't know about where you live, but in PA, my property taxes go to support the public schools.  If I want to send my kids to private school, I have to pay tuition on top of my property taxes.  And tuition is not deductible.  Also, comparing performance of private school students to that of public school students is comparing apples to oranges for a whole host of reasons.  In addition to the point about private schools only accepting the best and brightest to start with, consider the socio-economic backgrounds of the families who are able to afford to send their kids there.  It's less likely that both parents are working...and even if they are, the kids are less likely to be latch-key kids where the parents are working at night.  There's generally more likely to be better day-care and pre-school.  Furthermore, the parents of those kids are more likely to be more highly educated than public school parents, earn higher wages, and live in nicer houses in better neighborhoods.  These kids just have a better up-bringing and that is a clear advantage.  Also, class sizes are generally much smaller and the schools have more resources per student.  My step-daughter went to catholic school and was one of 8 kids in her class.  And the class sizes got smaller as they went up in grade level.

[Varmintmist]

For the performance of their students.  Consider this.........Private school students do better on average than their public school counterparts.  Parents of private school kids, through their proprty taxes and tuition have more of an immediate and real investment, therefore put more time, on average, into their kids' education.

I don't like that teachers have become the face of the public unions.  Post pics of the DMV employees and even the Dems of Wisconsin would come back to vote.   

The teachers here are pretty much poster children.
The were threatening to strike, something I personally think that should be illegal for ALL public service workers. They are paid better than the avg for the area, not including the perks like 3 months off, just straight wage, and they wanted to go out for; no input for their health plan, no input to their retirement, and 6, 6, and 6 with a signing bonus. Needless to say, since no one in the community as a whole has seen a raise that wasn't eaten by health plan or taxes in 20 years, they got the message pretty loud and clear that if they went out, there would be little community support for them not being replaced.
These teachers are NOT in a war zone, there is more parental involvement than a lot will accept. It is hard to give parental involvement when the teacher states that informing you about a problem with your son would not be fair to the other kids.

Personally, with 3 kids in the system, I like the standardized tests. Teachers complain that they have to teach for the test, well, that means that the kids have to at least learn that material. Some of the stuff they come home with now is 100% opinion (lefty) and this is a very conservative county.

I am also a bit tired of the "continuing education" complaint. No where else do you get time off to get current and credits by taking a couple two day courses in the summer that re PAID for.

BTW, 2 aunts that were teachers, MIL is a teacher, neighbor across the road is a principal, neighbor that I plow snow for is a teacher (only people I know with Obama bumper stickers), lived next to a teacher for 7 years, Wife in PTO, and am active in my kids education.

[Oss]

I hear ya Gary    You get out what you put in though

Here in Ossining NY the folks are pretty involved and this past year we had more Intel finalists than any other school except Bronx High School of Science ( a school which is among the best in the world) and we TIED them  with 8   It cant be done without a school staff that is willing to go the extra mile for the kids who show they WANT to LEARN outside the box

I went to NYC public schools in the 1960s and got a great education. The education is not as good now as kids are not afraid of corporal punishment, suspension or jail time in the big city and the climate of moving kids up who cant read poisons everything it touches. 

How freakin dumb does a kid have to be to get less than 1 in 2 questions right on a true false test yet I see report cards from clients kids that average 40 and under. That means the kid does not care and whether its also the parents who dont care also... maybe

I would not hire such a person and it bodes ill for our country

 

[Bob E.]

My wife and mother-in-law are both teachers (elementary) although my wife currently is not teaching in order to be home with our small children.  Point is that I have some exposure to some inside opinions on the subject.  Anyways, I have mixed feelings about standardized tests.  On one hand, I believe that we need to have some sort of standards across the country in order to measure the performance of students overall.  I think it would be a bad idea to allow each school to come up with its own criteria of what to teach.  Perhaps a district is in a religious area and you get an administrator that thinks science is not so important.  On the other hand, I believe that the standardized tests are too narrowly focused.  And since school districts funding is based on the performance of the students on these tests, the teachers come under pressure from the school boards to teach to the test in order to maximize funding.  Anything that is not on the test is a low priority and less likely to be dedicated any time in the classroom.  So I guess I would like to see a more general, broad-based standardized test so that the students get a more rounded education and the teachers are left a little lee-way to be creative in achieving positive results.

[Bob E.]

I am also a bit tired of the "continuing education" complaint. No where else do you get time off to get current and credits by taking a couple two day courses in the summer that re PAID for.

I disagree with this statement.  Just as a comparison, I'm a professional engineer in the private sector (non-union) and as of last year, my renewal of my PE license is contingent on my accumulating a certain number of pre-approved credits.  Many other states have had this requirement for years, but PA just passed this requirement.  My employer supports my efforts in obtaining these credits by paying for me to attend seminars, conventions, training, etc. by paying the fees for these activities, expenses like mileage and hotels if out of town and overnight, and paying my salary for those events that take place during business hours, though some of these hours are after business hours and are on my own time (but not my own expense).  From my experience, this is common practice among most professions that the employers support their employees in maintaining their licenses and certifications.

[Walküre]

When was the last time you were in a public school all day long?

My wife is a public school teacher and many of our friends are. They include Viet Nam veterans, ex-managers of Frito_Lay, son of a police officer, etc., hardly a group I would call socialists.

Are you saying that the professions you listed can't possibly have any socialists among them?  ???

Are you saying that everyone IN those professions, ARE socialists???

[Jeff K]

When was the last time you were in a public school all day long?

My wife is a public school teacher and many of our friends are. They include Viet Nam veterans, ex-managers of Frito_Lay, son of a police officer, etc., hardly a group I would call socialists.

Are you saying that the professions you listed can't possibly have any socialists among them?  ???

Are you saying that everyone IN those professions, ARE socialists???

You must be skipping posts. As I have already stated...

I asked a question. I didn't make a statement.

So to answer your question... No, I never said anything even close to that.

[Big IV]

This is one of those pots that I typically don't stir, but would like to take a moment to suggest a book.

Zen has at least three stories interwoven from the point of view of the same narrator. He is telling about a trip that he took on motorcycle. On the way he reveals hints of his own past because the book intertwines the internal monologue of a long distance ride. When they arrive at his former home town he meditates on notions on education that he once held. The narrator had taught in a college before becoming burned out. The section that I am reading slowly is him discussing how to inspire quality. He tries to decide where quality comes from: instruction, professor, student, or somewhere else.

I mention this because it connects education, inspiration, and motorcycles. I recommend it, although you may want to be read up on your Aristotle, Hume, and philosophers before you delve in. I am not going to pass this one along to my father to read because I don't think he'd like the philosophers. He prefers a more straight forward ride tale but if you are looking for a way to intertwine education and motorcycles that is a good way.

Since I am here and being opinionated I will also point out that nearly every community has tutoring and mentoring programs. Those are great things to do during a motorcycle commute.

[Jabba]

I think parents are not involved.

I think that disruptive kids ruin it for the ones that are trying, and THAT is what makes private schools better.  The ability to ditch the trouble makers.

When I was in school, the threat of getting "held back" was real and scary.  No one wanted to get held back.  There was a stigma attached to that that kids today don't fear.  They SHOULD.  Life ain't all about cuddly, feel good liberal crap.  Perform or get left behind.  That's how LIFE is, and school IMO is part of getting trained for life.

We need to start leaving kids behind.  If they will not participate, and achieve, then their parents (and maybe the socialist government too) should send them to a "special" school where they can be rehabilitated, or taught to their ability.

Jabba

[Jess from VA]

When I was in school, corporal punishment was alive and well.  It was used judiciously and fairly, but if you earned it you got it.  The gym /biology teacher had a big cricket bat paddle drilled full of holes, and was 6'4".  You sassed him at your own risk.  The deputy principle was the school enforcer, and shaved his head.  He once shook me so hard I think I lost fillings from my teeth.  I was a pretty good student, but I had it coming on that occasion.  You know what, it never happened again... my bad behavior, and his punishment.  I still remember his name, Dominic Kastri was a constant reminder of your responsibilities.  

IMHO both the carrot and the hammer are necessary for a proper education and behavior modification in public K-12.  It benefits not only the bad actors, but all the good children who have to coexist with the bad ones.

[Mikey]

At my job (this may be different for others, idk), I get paid to do things right. If my quality drops, so does my pay. I know what is expected of me, and everyday I work to make the company more money. The same thing (imo) should apply to teachers, since, afterall, the quality of the education they give reflects how successful those kids are going to be, granted different students are going to have different potential. But the end result will be more money for the government (the teacher's employer) in the form of more tax dollars from a higher income.

Having done some work at the local technical school, I can tell you for a fact that there is a distinct difference between smart students that were taught well, and smart students that were taught to the standardized tests. Get rid of the standardized testing, and the whole system would be better. Besides, the schools with the lower test scores most likely need more funding than the schools with higher scores. THAT is a real "no child left behind" program. The one we have now is more about lowering the bar than raising the level of education to get kids over the bar.

[Jabba]

Do we want to lower the bar for the kids that could clear the bar by a mile?  When you have trouble makers, and teach to tests... then even the gifted kids learn just that.  They are not challenged.  Nor get what they could out of it.  It sucks for the less intelligent kids to segregate them by talent, but it sucks for the smart ones NOT to.  Even 25 years ago, I wasn't challenged in high school.  Therefore I didn't learn how to study.  Went to college and failed out.  Not because I was dumb... but because my high school (and parents) let me down.  I got OK grades... but didn't have a clue how to study.  I didn't learn how to do that till I was 21years old and going thru the US Navy Nuclear Power program.  You learn to study there or you're out in the fleet chipping paint. (Or in my case, plumbing poop pipes) I made it.  We had a 75% attrition rate.

I want my son to learn how to work academically before he fails out of college.

Jabba

[Mikey]

AMEN Jabba,

People don't understand what it's like not to be challenged. The best teachers I ever had, I hated when I was in their class. It was after the class that I realized what I had learned that I appreciated.

[G-Man]

I wasn't challenged in high school.  Therefore I didn't learn how to study.  Went to college and failed out.  Not because I was dumb... but because my high school (and parents) let me down.  I got OK grades... but didn't have a clue how to study.  I

Same here, Jabba....exactly.  MY NYC public high school was a joke.  I just showed up and passed.  Got to college and had a very rude awakening.  Quit after 2.5 yrs of wasting time and money.  After working full time and making just enough for a single person to live off of, I decided I wanted more and went back, but it was a real struggle from start to finish. 

[Jabba]

The whole concept of dumbing the curriculum down to the least common denominator is NOT helping our country.  It's raising ANOTHER generation of slack wit loafers.

I ain't the smartest guy in the world... but I work hard at life.  We need thinkers.  if you spend all your resources trying to teach the least capable how to pass tests so you can keep your funding, it is not fulfilling the core role of education.  To educate our next generation of leaders, and doers. 

All we're doing now is teaching people how to fill out welfare forms.

Jabba

[Jabba]

It's kinda ridiculous.  My son JUST turned 4.  He can write.  He can read a little.  He's doing arithmetic. 

What's he going to do for the 1st 2 years of elementary school while his contemporaries catch up?  He's gonna learn to be lazy, and goof off, and dislike school.

So in order to do my son right... I have to pony up $10K a year to send him to a private school, on top of the property taxes I have been paying for the last 20 years.

Yeah... that's reasonable.

Jabba

[RuthlessRider]

When was the last time you were in a public school all day long?

My wife is a public school teacher and many of our friends are. They include Viet Nam veterans, ex-managers of Frito_Lay, son of a police officer, etc., hardly a group I would call socialists.

I would. They are working in a socialized system.  Vets in cop uniforms are the ones enforcing socialist dictates, like the "motorcycle only" checkpoints that have been in the news, lately.  None are going to do anything to jeopardize their pensions. "If its code, enforce it".

SO I guess by that comment that during the six years I was in the Army I was a socialist and my old CO from my tour in VN, who I remain good friends with, that retired at 27 years was a socialist for all those year. I think he would argue with you on that point.

[¿spoom]

For the performance of their students.  Consider this.........Private school students do better on average than their public school counterparts.  Parents of private school kids, through their proprty taxes and tuition have more of an immediate and real investment, therefore put more time, on average, into their kids' education.

I don't like that teachers have become the face of the public unions.  Post pics of the DMV employees and even the Dems of Wisconsin would come back to vote.  

I wasn't aware that teachers were being held 100% accountable. What did I miss?

[Valker]

I wasn't aware that teachers were being held 100% accountable. What did I miss?

Not sure where you've been, but as a 34 year public school teacher, I can tell you that is is now considered the teachers' fault if any child, no matter how badly they refuse to do anything, fails.

[Jabba]

I wasn't aware that teachers were being held 100% accountable. What did I miss?

Not sure where you've been, but as a 34 year public school teacher, I can tell you that is is now considered the teachers' fault if any child, no matter how badly they refuse to do anything, fails.

ANd that is rediculous.

Purge the chaff.  Let the slackers parents send THEM to private schools the deal with their ill begotten, ill mannered, illlegitimate, illfated progeny.  but then if they cared enough to invest at ALL in their kids... they probably wouldn't be the POS's they are.

Jabba

[Chattanooga Mark]

School vouchers are one way to hold schools accountable. For what we pay for the very poor education our students get in public schools we could easily have them in private schools, save a lot of money and they'd actually get an education. Maybe 1 or 2 teachers out of 10 public school teachers are worth half their pay and benefit packages these days. Home schooling is your friend as well.

Just think, when your non educated kids graduate from their local indoctrination center, they can come to Illinois for college and can be further set back by live sex shows disguised as class.

Mark
 

[Bobbo]

School vouchers are one way to hold schools accountable. For what we pay for the very poor education our students get in public schools we could easily have them in private schools, save a lot of money and they'd actually get an education. Maybe 1 or 2 teachers out of 10 public school teachers are worth half their pay and benefit packages these days. Home schooling is your friend as well.

Just think, when your non educated kids graduate from their local indoctrination center, they can come to Illinois for college and can be further set back by live sex shows disguised as class.

Mark
 

Would you be as enthusiastic about military spending vouchers?  After all, it IS our money they spend.  How would you like those throngs of lily-livered, pinko, socialist, liberals deciding where our military spends it's money?      

Public schools, like our military, exist for the overall benefit of Americans.